More Furcal Rumors: Updated 12/10 am
by Tom Dakers
on Dec 10, 2008 8:28 AM EST
in News
35 comments
According to MLB.com Rafael Furcal has four teams that are seriously interested in him: Dodgers, Jays, Royals and A's. This quote interested me:
"Toronto and Kansas City told me the only guy they would go to ownership for is Furcal," Kinzer said in the report. "They're serious."
If you were JP would Furcal be the 'only guy' you would go to ownership for? If everything was equal wouldn't you go to ownership for, oh, any of a dozen DH types? Or for that matter any of half a dozen free agent starting pitchers?
Furcal turned down a four year $35 million contract from the A's. I'm not sure I'd want to give him any more than $10 mill a year. I also don't think I'd want to go beyond 4 years with for a 31 year old SS who has a history of injury problems.
Of course, if I was Rafael I might not want to join the Royals, though they are improving and they are in a very weak AL Central. But if they are truly thinking about trading Zack Greinke for Jeff Francoeur, I'd run in another direction. Can you imagine a worse trade?
[Note by hugo, 12/10/08 8:26 AM EST ] Update: Griffin says Furcal's agent is just using the Jays to get more leverage and there's no chance of the Jays getting Furcal. But of course he has to say that, since he's already sworn up and down that there's no way the Jays are in on anyone major. I'm not saying he's wrong, but we will just have to wait and see
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if they were pursuing Bradley right now
they’d be telling his agent the same thing, I’d imagine. Everyone knows the Jays have financial constraints (it’s been all over the news) so they have to tell Furcal’s agent that to convince him that the Jays are serious about Furcal and not blowing smoke.
In the piece right before the one mentioning the Jays, Rosenthal hypothesizes that Furcal’s price may have gone down. With the SS market drying up, his agent may be trying to ink a deal before it goes down any further? I agree with you about the cost, though. The one interesting thing is that Furcal has been confident enough in the past to accept more money per year over less years than he could have gotten – so maybe he’d be willing to do the same thing again?
Wow, Grienke for Francoeur? No way it happens. But if Grienke is that available, I would be interested. He can pitch.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on
Dec 9, 2008 9:02 PM EST
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Why go to ownership for Bradley
when there’s a bunch of other DHes out there you might be equally satisfied with and not have to go to ownership for? Think Priceline for free agents.
"He almost has to start. Do you believe in miracles?"
by Torgen on
Dec 9, 2008 9:05 PM EST
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I inferred
that going to ownership referred to increasing salary. What DH’s are available who would not mean a salary increase, all other things being equal?
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on
Dec 9, 2008 9:08 PM EST
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Now, while there's lots of teams asking about guys?
Probably none. Later, when the music stops? Probably exactly one.
"He almost has to start. Do you believe in miracles?"
by Torgen on
Dec 9, 2008 9:14 PM EST
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And if it's more than one
so much the better.
"He almost has to start. Do you believe in miracles?"
by Torgen on
Dec 9, 2008 9:15 PM EST
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Am I missing something...
I haven’t heard anyone talking about Orlando Cabrera. Am I missing something, or is he not just as good (if not better) a fit than furcal? He’s a gold-glove calibre shortstop with proven playoff experience on great teams. Furcal
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by Archimedies on
Dec 9, 2008 9:23 PM EST
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(CONT)...
Furcal has had some good individual years, sure, but I’d rather have the OC at SS
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by Archimedies on
Dec 9, 2008 9:24 PM EST
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Scutaro had a better bat (in terms of wOBA)
and a better glove (in terms of UZR) than Cabrera this year.
"He almost has to start. Do you believe in miracles?"
by Torgen on
Dec 9, 2008 9:33 PM EST
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you just beat me to it
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on
Dec 9, 2008 9:35 PM EST
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damn...
I should have checked my wOBA and UZR sources before posting that….
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by Archimedies on
Dec 9, 2008 9:40 PM EST
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UZR is on Fangraphs now
which is very handy
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on
Dec 9, 2008 9:42 PM EST
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ORLY?
I won’t lie, I’m not a huge proponent of fielding statistics
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by Archimedies on
Dec 9, 2008 9:43 PM EST
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they're certainly imperfect
but better than going by number of gold gloves or who Tim McCarver thinks is good
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on
Dec 9, 2008 9:50 PM EST
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Tim McCarver likes Cabrera?
I wouldn’t know, having never payed attention to a single thing Tim McCarver has ever said
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by Archimedies on
Dec 9, 2008 9:51 PM EST
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Crazy abbreviations aside...
He’s got repeated years of experience in big-time situations with Boston, Anaheim and Chicago, (David Eckstein did too) and does a lot of things right that I like in a ballplayer.
That said, I’m not 100% gung-ho Cabrera or bust, just curious about why I haven’t heard anything
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by Archimedies on
Dec 9, 2008 9:46 PM EST
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I like Cabrera pretty well
and would be okay with him on an Eckstein ‘08 type deal, I suppose, but I just don’t think he’s enough of an upgrade for the money he’ll command. I’d rather spend the cash on a DH or Starter.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on
Dec 9, 2008 9:52 PM EST
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I'd rather have a DH as well
we were just talking SS’s is all
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by Archimedies on
Dec 9, 2008 9:52 PM EST
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Furcal is a nice upgrade over Scoot.....
Orlando would be just another version of Scoot. As we talked about here. Orlando would get 3 times as much money as Scoot too.
by Tom Dakers on
Dec 9, 2008 10:46 PM EST
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Oh wow, how about that
Question answered.
Well done.
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by Archimedies on
Dec 9, 2008 10:50 PM EST
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Course it is all opinion.....
I’m not a fan of Orlando…..ask Griffin and he’ll tell you how wonderful Orlando is and how the Jays should sign him. And Furcal could spend most of any contract he signs on the injury list.
by Tom Dakers on
Dec 9, 2008 11:03 PM EST
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Certainly...
I was just bandying about names, wondering why he hadn’t been mentioned. I’m happy enough just seeing that, in fact, there’s already been a multitude of conversation on the same topic. I wish I’d been around back then, or during the season itself.
Regardless, I disagree that Cabrera and Scutaro are the same player. Sure, if you break down to career AVG/OBP/SLG numbers, they look similar, but Scutaro has been mainly a utility bit player for terrible Oakland teams. If you want to look at hits, HR, RBI, Runs, and Steals, Cabrera has higher averages across the board. Other than getting on base the exact same amount, Scutaro did little to ensure me that he’s a starting shortstop on a playoff team.
I’m not saying Orlando Cabrera is the answer to every problem, and that Gold Gloves are the be-all end-all, but Scutaro hasn’t ever been in the conversation for a GG, nor has he ever been in the top-15 in MVP voting, or played in 7 postseasons as an everyday starter.
They’re the same age, and the OC was a major part of turning the 2004 Sox season around after trading Nomar. Two 100+ hit seasons compared to 9 straight, in my opinion, give OC the advantage.
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by Archimedies on
Dec 9, 2008 11:16 PM EST
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just to add a bit more
Beyond the Box Score had Scoot as the 7th most productive SS in baseball last year, offense and defense included. Cabrera was 14th. Cabrera of course has more of a track record as an everyday SS, and that’s definitely worth something. But not $8 million a year.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on
Dec 9, 2008 11:25 PM EST
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I'll agree
That $8M is excessive, but truly, how much better can Scoot be? and if Scoot is the 7th best SS in baseball, why replace him at all?
It’s tough, being a Jays fan this offseason. I hate having to think like this. Any signing of OC would have to be short term, 2 years.
I’ve just got a terrible feeling about Furcal is all
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by Archimedies on
Dec 9, 2008 11:29 PM EST
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Why if he's the 7th best SS in the league....
do we want to replace him? That is a great question. Well….because he wasn’t the 7th best lead off man. Scoot wasn’t a good lead off man. Furcal would be a very good lead off man. With Furcal leading off we would score more runs. Last season a handle of more runs could have won us a bunch of games. Orlando would be roughly the same lead off hitter that Scoot is.
Also, I don’t think that any of us figure that Scoot is the 7th best SS in the league as an on going thing. He may have been this past year but…..I am not sold that his defense will continue to be as good as it was this past year.
That being said, I think that if Scoot plays every day this coming season he won’t be 3% worse than Orlando and yet will be paid 1/3 as much money.
A good DH would help the team more, in my humble opinion, but then there are roughly 20 guys the Jays could get that would improve the DH spot or just leaving Snyder in that spot would improve it. Furcal’s the only SS readily available that would significantly improve the team.
by Tom Dakers on
Dec 9, 2008 11:52 PM EST
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A solid DH
Not to beat too much off the path we’re on (mostly because I’m slowly but surely being taken away from my OC awareness, and now fully understand that Furcal is better) and perhaps I’m missing something, but has there been any rumblings about any quality DH from anywhere coming here? That was the only position in the lineup that made me cringe on a daily basis, and it’s the one thing that you’d think would be easy to do
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by Archimedies on
Dec 9, 2008 11:59 PM EST
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I think...
the plan is to see how things shake out…..there are a lot of good DH’s on the market. As Torgen said a little ways up this thread ‘think Priceline for free agents’. There are enough DH’s that there are fewer buyers than sellers, someone might be picked up cheap later in the off season. With the hit to the Canadian dollar and the lost of a couple of big sponsors, I think the Jays are going to be looking for a bargain, much as I think getting Manny would be pay off in ticket sales, it is easy for me to say because I’m not risking a dollar thinking that.
by Tom Dakers on
Dec 10, 2008 12:08 AM EST
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You Mean Manny's Not Coming?
/tears
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by Archimedies on
Dec 10, 2008 12:16 AM EST
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yep
I’ve been beating this drum for a while, but I think it bears repeating. I think JP learned from the Thomas affair that it doesn’t really make sense to jump in and pay market rate for a DH, and particularly not an old and/or injury prone one. After the new year, my guess is that JP moves on the best bat left, and with the player’s leverage down the price will be very low. I see him doing something similar for a starter.
This strategy hasn’t always worked out of course, but there are reasons to think that for a DH it might this season.
Anyway, some reports have linked the Jays to Bradley, but that seems like a bit of a repeat of Thomas to me. Of course, that doesn’t mean it won’t work out if the Jays do it, but I’m not sure they will.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on
Dec 10, 2008 12:17 AM EST
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Bradley works
if he’s not looking for a raise. Headgames aside, there were times last year when I thought I’d lose my voice, screaming from the high heavens that all I wanted was a DH who’s got a SLG% above .450.
Big Smoke Sports - We Burn The Buds, Roll The Raps, and Smoke The Jays
by Archimedies on
Dec 10, 2008 12:21 AM EST
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it was painful
and doubly so because the team was losing games because of it. Many a cry of anguish was raised on this site last season while our DHs set new standards of futility.
Theoretically, Lind and Snider could be all the help we need, but that doesn’t leave any margin for error. So we need to add a nice big bat. My guess is we do, but we’ll see.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on
Dec 10, 2008 12:29 AM EST
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Ive got to sign off for now...
But I just thought I’d say before leaving that you’d both better get used to me. I came across this place after spending a ton of time at PPP talking Leafs. If this proves the be as great a place to talk baseball as PPP is to talk hockey, I’ll pretty much be on here non stop.
Great work, keep it up.
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by Archimedies on
Dec 10, 2008 12:36 AM EST
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You are welcome here anytime.
Thanks for coming in….
by Tom Dakers on
Dec 10, 2008 12:38 AM EST
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yeah, stop by anytime!
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on
Dec 10, 2008 12:43 AM EST
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Cabrera isn't terrible
but is 3 years older than Furcal and Furcal is a much better hitter and gets on base enough to hit at the top of the order. Cabrera did have a good year with the glove last season, but the numbers don’t support that he is gold glove caliber year-to-year. Actually, I’m not sure that Cabrera is an upgrade over Scutaro. Scoot was better with the bat and the glove last season.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on
Dec 9, 2008 9:34 PM EST
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