Halladay For Holliday?
by rincewind
on Jul 24, 2008 9:06 PM EDT
in News
A question came from Redhawk, visiting from Purple Row, the Colorado Rockies area, in the comments area from the Open Letter to JP, which deserves a wider audience. It came out of the story, from the All-Star break that had Doc saying he was 'unhappy in Toronto'. I think the story exaggerated what Doc said. Doc wants to win, who doesn't? I think Doc would like to win in Toronto.
Anyway Redhawk's question in response to Doc wanting out:
(The story) got the Rockies fans very excited. Halliday is from the Denver area. And there appears to be a match on our teams needs that work well together. Matt Holliday for Roy Halliday as the key pieces. The Rockies would have to kick in extra pieces of course. We have extra middle infielders like say…Clint Barmes batting .303 in 2008 and can play SS or 2nd or 3rd. Catcher Torrealba who wants more playing time. Plus a couple of more minor leaguers. We have some good pitching prospects in AAA an AA that aren’t quite ready but are highly rated. (the group to pick from AAA: Jason Hirsch, Franklyn Morales, Greg Renyolds our 06 #1 pick, AA Chaz Roe)
Matt Holliday is a power bat you need. He’s signed through 09, but his agent is Scott Boras, and there are only a few teams that could pay him what he will demand, Toronto being one of them, and this would give a leg up on negotiations against the Yankees and the Red Sox.
I know losing Halliday would be a shock….but we could send you a lot of depth (heck I think Barmes is an upgrade starter at either SS or 2nd for the Jays, and Torrealba is a better hitting catcher), as well as minor leaguers. And the Rockies get back the one thing they can’t get…and ACE…who is also from Denver, CO, and makes his off season home here still!
So let's hear what you think, I'll put up a poll but and I'll copy my response into the comments. Tell us what you think.
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Hmmmmmm
Halladay for Holliday? The good part is we’d just have to change a couple of letters on the jerseys. I think Doc’s comments were over-stated. Doc said ‘he’d like the team to win’, and course he would like the team to win. Doc also said ‘I want to be part of this team as long as they will have me’.I don’t think he’s really begging to be traded. Now if you wanted AJ, we could make a deal.
JP our GM (yes we lead the lead in people with initials for names) said yesterday, that he’s going to try to extend Doc contract. He has 2 years left on it, he is underpaid by ace standards. And since Holliday is only signed thru next year you are getting 2 years for one.
But yes, Holliday would be the type of player we really really could use. And a SS that could do us for 3 year till Justin Jackson arrives. We would also need a starter that could pitch now for us and become better in the near future. In reality we need a lot of pieces and Doc is someone that could bring us a lot of piece. And yeah, Barmes would be an upgrade at short.
A catcher….no we have a handful of catchers that we like coming up but a couple of starting prospects and/or a corner infield prospect would be interesting.
I guess what we’d need is a lot of bodies to come back for him. I don’t think he is being shopped and I think JP would have to be knocked out by the offer if he is to be traded.
by rincewind on Jul 24, 2008 9:11 PM EDT 0 recs
I think of all the trades I've heard for Holliday
for the Rockies this one makes the most sense. It matches up needs the best. We have bodies, lots of em. Good ones, that are blocked at the major league level, and getting squeezed by those below. Example: Christian Colonel a 3b/1b guy batting .314 in AAA and AAA all-star, or Joe Koshanky a big LH 1b, that is a good power bat (though average is a little low, and his age is getting up there due to Helton blocking him, think Jack Cust but WAY better fielder). We have bodies…that’s the point. We have prospects to burn, that are blocked.
Only we don’t have major league starting pitchers that are ready today. We have several that should be good to even very good in a year or two. Greg Reynolds was the Rockies #1 pick from 06. Big tall, like Chris Young of the Padres. or Franklyn Morales who was our #1 prospect last year, that is working though a mechanical mess, but he looked like J. Santana. Or Jason Hirsh who came to us from Houston for Jason Jennings, who has been set back by injuries but was the Astros #1 prospect. At least one of these the Jays would demand back.
And that’s just to start. The Rockies have a deep organization. We need a top of the line pitcher. The Jays also need a huge impact bat….and do they come bigger than Matt Holliday’s? an OF of Holliday, Wells, and Rios looks pretty good, even in the AL East.
Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.
by Redhawk on Jul 24, 2008 10:50 PM EDT 0 recs
No Offence, but...
There is no way this would ever get through. EVER. I think we can all agree first of all that Roy Halladay is a more valuable commodity than Holliday right now. Aces are more rare than slugging OF. Second, an added value to Halladay is that he is signed through 2010 while Holliday is only signed through next year, 2009. Yes, Holliday plus a couple prospects would make a good package, but this deal makes absolutely no sense to the Toronto Blue Jays.
Scenario #1: We are trying to compete now
If JP decides he wants to compete now, he is not going to trade away the team’s best pitcher, from the team’s strength, pitching. Any gains from getting Holliday on the offensive side is not enough to offset the lost of replacing Halladay with whoever the rockies throw in/Litsch/Cecil/etc… Getting Holliday won’t help us win now.
Scenario #2: Rebuild
If we want to rebuild and start over anew, why would we want Holliday? Someone that is going to help us now. I’d be looking to center the deal around someone like the Dodger’s Clayton Kershaw or the Cardinals’ Colby Rasmus, not Holliday.
Logistically improbable
When Vernon Wells is healthy, our outfield is Lind/Wells/Rios. Both Wells and Rios are signed to long-term deals, and I would argue that Wells’ contract is unmovable, probably one of the worst contracts in baseball right now. Lind has been hitting well since his recall, but let’s say he is expendable, and can be traded for other assets. If we are going to trade for Holliday, we would also want to sign him to a long-term deal. Let’s hope JP Ricciardi or whoever his successor might be is not dumb enough to lock up 3 outfielders to long term deals. That is just an unefficient allocation of resource, especially with Lind being a potential above-average offensive left fielder. Furthermore, the Jays’ top prospect, Travis Snider, is holding his own in AA right now and should make it to the big club sometime next season and hopefully be up for good in 2010. That’s a log jam in the OF if I have ever seen one between Wells/Rios/Lind/Snider/Holliday. We don’t need 5 quality outfielders, and good luck trading any of these assets for an Ace.
And to answer your question, yes bats do come bigger than Holliday (I really like Holliday, but not that much). I am not even going to bother to name names. But there is also a Coors factor (although I think it is overrated) that we have yet to explore, Holliday has a 1129OPS at Coors while a significantly lower but still excellent 859 OPS on the road. Holliday is still very much an unknown (relatively speaking) quantity away from Coors. Again, I don’t think he’ll stop hitting moving away from Coors, but he probably is not a perennial MVP candidate.
I am sorry, but Slugging OF is not nearly as valuable as a top of the rotation pitcher. If the Rockie’s want Halladay, I think the package will be centered around Tulowitzki, not Holliday. Tulowitzki makes much more sense for the Jays than Holliday.
by slitheringslider on Jul 24, 2008 11:18 PM EDT 0 recs
Yeah I agree...
I was thinking that Holliday would allow us to fill the DH hole with Lind and/or a rotation of the outfielders. But, Doc is one of the 2 or 3 best pitchers in baseball. I’d argue he’s the best starter at the moment. Holliday is likely a top 10 outfielder. We’d have Holliday for a year, and likely wouldn’t sign him beyond that with Vernon’s and Rios’ contracts. Doc we have for 2 years and quite posibly we could sign him beyond that. If not in two years we’d have a better handle on what we’d need if we wanted to trade him.
We do need power and a DH would be great, I think long term Snider will be up and he and Lind can share left and DH. If Rios’ finds his power stroke (looks like he might be) and with Lind’s power the need is not as great as it was earlier in the year.
First base is a spot we could use more power from and IF we had Holliday (frig hard to remember how each one is spelled) Lind or Snider could play first but we have OVerbay for a couple more years and he would be hard to move too. And he’s not a bad first basemen, is just when the team is underpowered his lack of power stands out.
I can see why a Rockie fan or for that matter a fan of any other team would want Doc but what is offered back would have to really wow you and Holliday and Barmes and a couple of prospects doesn’t do that.
So like I said if you want AJ we likely could talk. You want Doc…...well Tulowitzki would be a better place to start the bidding. And we’d need a starter that could fit in now.
by rincewind on Jul 24, 2008 11:52 PM EDT 0 recs
1B
Overbay is entrenched in 1st base over the next couple years and it looks like David Cooper is fast-tracked to the big leagues (I know I know it is really early). So hopefully we won’t have any 1B openings in the near future.
by slitheringslider on Jul 25, 2008 12:30 AM EDT 0 recs
Holliday/Halladay
I think it’s a pretty fair trade on paper, but in reality (like others have mentioned) it creates a huge log jam in the OF. If somehow the Jays could turn the deal to the huge variety and trade Halladay and Rios for Holliday and Tulowitzki (+ a little more in prospects) then that is something that would make a little more sense.
The other issue with this that no one has mentioned is that with Doc gone and AJ Burnett all but gone after this season where does that leave the Jay’s once strong rotation? McGowan/Marcum/Litsch/Purcey…NOT the rotation of a contender that is for sure.
I highly doubt that Doc will be dealt right now, but if he is the Jays need to then rebuild and get top prospects in return.
by bunner on Jul 25, 2008 10:49 AM EDT 0 recs
So if I'm reading the response correctly
Holliday for one year and possibly re-signing him (I predict he’ll be Manny Ramirez replacement in LF for Boston in 2010) or the draft picks he brings if he doesn’t, isn’t that exciting. But a slew of top prospects might be, if at least one was a top level SP but a bunch of prospects just isn’t exciting either?
Bottom line: The subtraction of Halladay, is greater than any addition he could ever possibly bring, and the Jays will be worse off if he’s gone.
Which might be true if Jays team and fans think they are close to competing in the next 2 years. From what I’ve read the general feeling seems to be if the Jays could get a solid #4/5 SP and a Mark Texiera type in the off season through FA, they are right there. And if that’s the feeling, trading Roy Halladay wouldn’t be smart.
Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.
by Redhawk on Jul 25, 2008 12:01 PM EDT 0 recs
I think the response was...
That the story that Doc says he wants to leave was overblown, he said he’d like to win. He also said he thinks the clubs is moving in the right direction and that he’d be a Jay as long as the Jays want him. If he was to be traded…well we’d have to fill holes we’ll have….we have 3 outfielders at the moment. 2 that are overpaid and can’t go anywhere and our top prospect is an outfielder that likely will be here by the end of next season.
If Doc wanted to win….Jays are .500, are 45-58….you think he’d like that better? I believe he’s a 5/10 man so he would have some say in where he’d go.
If he was going to be traded, it would have fill holes we have. Trading him we have to fill a huge hole in the rotation, then middle infield, maybe DH type. Basically, if he’s going to be traded it would have to be a deal that just knocked you over.
by rincewind on Jul 25, 2008 1:23 PM EDT 0 recs
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