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Bluejayperched_tiny by hugo on in Game Threads Comment 245 comments

Toronto Blue Jays @ Tampa Bay Rays


Lineup

Toronto Blue Jays @ Tampa Bay Rays

08/28/08 7:10 PM EDT

Toronto Blue Jays Tampa Bay Rays
Joe Inglett - LF Akinori Iwamura - 2B
Marco Scutaro - 2B B.J. Upton - CF
Alex Rios - RF Carlos Pena - 1B
Vernon Wells - CF Cliff Floyd - DH
Adam Lind - DH Willy Aybar - 3B
Lyle Overbay - 1B Eric Hinske - LF
Rod Barajas - C Gabe Gross - RF
Jose Bautista - 3B Shawn Riggans - C
John McDonald - SS Jason Bartlett - SS

It's not Saturday, but David Purcey must be crying for yesterday after the greatest performance of his career went to waste as Matt Garza completely shut the Jays down for the 4th time this season.  I think the Jays will face Garza once more, and they better at least score next time.  4 starts and Garza has yielded 1 run against the Jays.

Rolen continues to sit out as the suddenly harder-throwing Jesse Litsch faces hard-thrower Edwin Jackson and the Rays.  Bautista has basically replaced Stairs in the lineup, but hopefully Cito won't hesitate to use Stairs to pinch-hit for Mac in a situation where the game is on the line. 

Mrs. Hugo is at meet-the-teacher night, so I'm around to watch the game. Why not kick back and enjoy what promises to be another good game.   Let's go Jays!

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Rolen is still not in the line up...

Why activate him if he still can’t play?

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 7:02 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my guess is he physically can play

but he is still working on the new mechanics

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

it’s pretty confusing

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It is to me....

not like there are a lot ofbatters on the bench with the number of relievers teams carry these days

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 7:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sigh

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

head hunting contest

i am watching the rays broadcast the play by play guy is an inveterate homer with a hilarious hair weave

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 7:17 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm enjoying

the same buffoon

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

seemed like Rios

didn’t get a good read on that at all

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:20 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i miss don chevrier

he sucked but in such a canadian way

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 7:20 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

this isn't going great

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:21 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nice

gets Pena to pop up

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:23 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he is very excitable

Rance is a good balance for him though

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

with Extra Innings

I’m hostage to the Rays’ broadcast tonight, but was just speaking generally

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

1st and 3rd again

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:26 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Litsch gets the weak tapout

to minimize the damage

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:27 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we need errors like that

second baseman rushing to get the fleet footed lyle

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 7:32 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

only 2 more terrible fielding plays

and maybe we’ll score a run

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:34 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

get a hit already

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:37 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how bad

would Mac have to be at the plate to get Eckstein off the bench?

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:39 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he has been terrible hasn't he.....

a few more at bats and he’ll be where Lind was when he was sent down….and he’ll have to start hitting to get to where Thomas was before he was released

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 7:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

one fascinating thing

is how when you get the Jays broadcast, no boner pill commercials. but as soon as you get an american broadcast, you get one every inning

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:40 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oh well get some....

I really don’t like them, having young boys in the house…..not sure when it became fair game to have that on tv. They make a big deal about a blurry moment of Janet Jackson’s breast but can have 15 Viagra commercial an hour

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 7:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right there with you

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shows we have our priorities right, doesn't it.

I wonder what my 10 year old thinks when he sees them, I try to chance the channel but can’t always

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 7:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I also can't

shake the feeling that these drug companies could have cured some horrible diseases by now if they didn’t spend so much money marketing and advertising their boner pills and weight loss drugs

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

true

you never know, maybe all the money from Viagra will help Pfizer invent a cure for childhood diabetes

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

great play

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wow great throw

to nail inglett

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 7:56 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and Wells

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I do love Joe Maddon's Elvis Costello glasses

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:01 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Joe Maddon or Elvis Costello?

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes

his favourite album is the same as mine: Wild, the Innocent, and the E Street Shuffle

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah those were great

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Was great music.

Favorite one this year is the Robert Plant/ Alison Krause thing

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 8:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

I didn’t think I would like that but I really did. It reminded me that some of my favourite Zeppelin songs were the bluegrassy ones

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nice quick out for Litsch

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:03 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

foul?

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:04 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cliff destroyed it

Litsch kind of getting hit hard

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

haha

Wilner was talking about him yesterday

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jamie is talking about him now....

Don’t stand for God Bless America and you get thrown from the park….but be a creep for years on end and you stay. Maybe that’s why no one goes to the games there

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 8:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

allright

time to get ourselves on the board here

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:12 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

attaboy Lyle

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:17 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hey, by the way

who’s the guy on your icon?

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:18 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he's Rincewind.....

A wizard from a very funny series of books call Discworld…

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 8:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ah

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Terry Pratchett, riht?

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, I've heard of the books but never picked one up

an friend of mine who is an auditor told me that the auditors are villains in the stories, which sounded pretty funny

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah in a couple of then....he's done parodies of

he’s done parodies of a lot of different things. Is really funny stuff, and nice easy read when you need one. They use to come out quicker than I could read them but….he is apparently going to keep writing, but has slowed a lot.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 8:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

mine is my middle name

but what most of my friends call me

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

seems wrong to write opinions and then not 'sign' my name to them

I used rincewind because it asked for a name when I first looked in here and I have used that for online games and crap

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 8:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sure seems like it

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

another walk for Inglett

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:32 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I love how

the Rays announcers talk about how Inglett is 4-6 lifetime against Jackson, and use that to justify a conclusion that punch-and-judy hitting is the way to beat him

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:34 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm no stats genius

but some things are just so obviously insignificant or random variation and yet announcers still use them to justify ridiculous counterintuitive points

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Course I feel some the same about taking the bad starts out of a pitchers stats too....

took a few minutes to check Doc….he has a .2.04 ERA in wins and a 3.92 ERA in loses…..if you start with a theory you can fine stats to back it up.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 8:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

amazing

that even his ERA in losses is better than league average

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rios pops up yet again

funny I’ve typed that before apparently…

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 8:37 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nice pickoff move by Litsch

don’t think I’ve seen him do that before

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:44 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah Vernon

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:47 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

reading it right now actually

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

done..I just e-mailed you about it

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and thanks...

not totally happy with it….would like some personal memory of the guy or something interesting. I thought the best bit was from Bill James saying he was the best looking Jay

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 8:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah that would be nice

a little anecdote of some sort

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now if it were Buck Martinez....

I remember the play so well where he was run over at the plate, but held on to the ball, broken ankle I think, but throws to third to try to get the trailing runner, the ball goes into left but is thrown back in and he tags the guy at the plate. End of his baseball career.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 9:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

come on now Lind

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:48 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm hoping that will be an adjustment he makes

as pitchers start to respect him more, he will adjust by taking the walks when they’re given

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

bad luck there

although good thing no one got doubled off

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:51 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rod

guess what? pops up

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:52 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a single is better than a walk

a walk can advance a runner one base…a single can advance two..and with two outs, will score a runner from second a majority of the time

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 8:53 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

there are exceptions, but generally speaking

if a player doesn’t learn to walk in the majors, he’ll never reach that next level as a hitter

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that really sucked

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:53 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I officially hate this game

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:59 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

this game tonight, not this game of baseball, haha

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 8:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

joe carter never learned to walk and was a fine hitter in the majors

as is soriano and others
obviously it is better to have a higher obp than lower
but the overemphasis on obp is a mistake. just like pre bill james the underemphais of obp is a mistake.

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:01 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Carter was way over rated.....

he did drive in a bunch of runs…but had a ton of guys on base in front of him. he hit worse with runners on than with runners on, but had Olrude, Alomar and Molitor in front of him. Made a ton of outs

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 9:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Carter was a reasonably good, not a great, hitter

of course, trying to walk more wouldn’t have necessarily made him better – it might have made him worse.

Soriano’s best season was also his highest walk rate, when he played for the Nationals. If Lind hits 40 home runs a season, we can forgive the lack of walks. but otherwise It’ll be nice to see him walk a little more, which I am confident he will.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

carter wasnt overrated--he was considered to be a fine hitter

not a great hitter, but a very good hitter…he drove in lots of runs, he ran the bases very well (that doesnt show up on stats)

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:06 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

soriano's best season was arguably his wash nat year, true

but that doesnt discount his other ‘not so great years’—-

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:09 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no, that's very true

his 1st season with the cubs was almost as good, and his walk rate was back down to his Texas and NY days. He has been good this season though, and has been walking more again

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Career .260 hitter.....

some where on the web there is a list of worst batting seasons that produced 100 RBI, he’s got a bunch on the list. He wasn’t terrible but, if he’d take the odd walk….wouldn’t have had guys getting him to strike out on pitches well of the plate so much.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 9:10 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

his average suffered from his post prime years and years in san diego

plus lack of lineup support in last years in cleveland

check out his slugging numbers….he was a fine hitter, unfairly maligned by bill james..i remember when james analysis was provocative and revolutionary and it had/has its place…but even he admits it has many many flaws

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:16 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Soriano's my son's favorite example of managers not understanding what is going on in front of them.....

the other day he had the lowest on base in the line up and almost most home runs…..so where does he bat? Lead off. Make the least use of his power and the most use of his outs.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 9:16 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

your son may be right re soriano

but is probably wrong

there are myriad reasons why a manager may lead him off…and if your son doesnt watch cubs play all the time , he will not know the truth just by looking at the stats available to him

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:18 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah lots of reasons why.....

but lead off men out to get on base….power I want with guys on base. i can’t imagine a reason I’d want the worse on base guy leading off.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 9:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

for example, a leadoff homer making the score 1-0

puts a lot of pressure on the other team—-and if you have a good pitching staff, that pressure can be used to your advantage
similarly the threat of a leadoff homer can pressure some pitchers, and that stress can be helpful
or maybe soriano hits better without the pressure of men on base

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:21 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's true, I think

a truly great leadoff hitter has power, gets on base, and has speed. That’s why Henderson was the best of all time and Raines was likely second. Sizemore is one of the best today for that same reason.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not even really one of

he’s probably just the best, though I do love me some Ichiro

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i would say there are a lot of smart managers out there who have no use for bill james

or use him with a grain of salt
similary there are many many idiot managers out there who discount simple statistical analysis to their detriment

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:23 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oh there are lots of folks that hate bill james....

will point out the team that employs him has won 2 world series since they put him on the payroll

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 9:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thats true---though they havent won every year

and other teams using his ideas havent won

red sox won because of many reasons, chiefly because ortiz and manny are spectacular, one of the best 1-2 punches in baseball history

the bill james analysis helped them get the kevin millar types in lineup true…but watch them win this year with speed and defence—-which is good way to go in post steroid era

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no doubt there are exceptions

but if you look at a list of great hitters, there are a lot more guys who walked than not. And if you look at below-average hitters, a lot more guys who didn’t. So if you’re a young hitter, unless you know that you’re the exception, you try to model your career to give you the greatest chance of success, no?

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:25 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ichiro creates a ton of runs with his approach

but he walks a little more than Soriano

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah - his career walk % is 9.1% though

Ichiro is 6.6, and Soriano’s is 5.5

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

based on that

I don’t think he qualifies, despite his reputation as a bad-ball hitter

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's probably true

Ichiro doesn’t get intentionally walked much (though it does happen when runners are in scoring position), but Soriano surely does

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm sure you're right about that

but I’m still not sure he qualifies for the “best guy who doesn’t walk” competition

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a good batter usually improves his obp with age

partially because he becomes more patient, gets a ‘better eye’
and partially because pitchers become afraid of him and pitch him more carefully

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I totally agree

and as pitchers pitch him more carefully, the hitter has to learn to take what he is given and recognize when he can help the team most by drawing the walk. I think that’s what will happen with Lind, by the way.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we got a run

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:31 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we got a run there because lind hit a single

a walk wouldnt have worked
similarly if lind would have been thrown out there, we would have scored

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think that's right

he should continue to be aggressive when his pitch comes though

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well if you agree that a single is better than a walk

i guess you would have to revamp your above thoughts on obp

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it's indisputable that a single is better than a walk

but I don’t see how that invalidates OBP

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it doesnt invalidate obp

it just shows that obp by itself is a very flawed stat

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

when viewed in a vacuum

I would totally agree

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

exactly

although some stats in isolation give you a less flawed picture than others

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that was pretty good though

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

eckstein sighting

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:42 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

has great permanent stubble though

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we just don't have good luck

with the Baptists

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i bet you jp barely knew anything about him

but signed him based on some idiotic stats analysis

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:45 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

JP isn't a stathead, really

he was a scout and is still of that mindset

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he worked for Beane

but if you read moneyball, he doesn’t really come across as a Beanie (not that that would be a bad thing). But he was a scout and my impression of him is that he thinks like one

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He worked in Oakland....

course beane scouts too….just Joe Morgan who refuses to look at the book figures if he wasn’t writen about Joe Morgan it is stupid…and course has big words he doesn’t understand

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 9:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ironically

Beane was a super-toolsy prospect for the Mets. the exact opposite of a moneyball player

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

anyone who has ever played at any level

knows they exist. you can play worse in the clutch of course, but it doesn’t follow that that means you can also "step up your game’ as some would claim. maybe you can, but it definitely doesn’t follow

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's what I was saying

just because you can psyche yourself into playing worse in a high pressure situation doesn’t mean that you can step up your game and be clutch. the most clutch you can be is just doing what you always do

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 10:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but thats a misconception

clutch could simply mean, that the batter doesnt get nerves and the opposing pitcher does

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 10:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it could

pitching and hitting are so different though. and if clutch performance somehow depended on the opposing pitcher clutchiness or lack thereof it would be almost impossible to pin down

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 10:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And no one hits 'in the clutch' year after year.....

so is tough to find…..yeah I would be awful in the clutch but I’d be awful all the time…..there is the odd case of a guy who’s nerves are bad and doesn’t do well…..but then they end up out of ball quick

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 10:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

according to JP

who never lies (since it’s not a lie if he knows the truth) he has liked Bautista for a while

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What Morgan didn't get was that the book wasn't saying 'the way to win is on base %'

The book said that Beane couldn’t spend money so had to figure out what was under valued…..since the book came out over GMs started paying for on base, so he’s moving over to paying for pitching and defense

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 9:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a great writer, by the way

his stuff on fatherhood is hilarious and moving

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he is a really good writer....

I liked the football book. and one of the few guys that can write about business and my eyes don’t gloss over

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 9:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I do agree with you on the quality of the grey lady

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 10:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but Lewis doesn't write for the times, does he?

he writes for Times magazine, which is terrible for totally different reasons

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 10:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

same crap

they have little journalistic ethics

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 10:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the whole book is basically a lie

the a’s were good because their offence was on steroids

and their pitching was great because of their ballpark

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

probably most of them, right?

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 10:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but how many of them let themselves be a subject of a

hagiography knowing that every one of his stars who contributed to his team’s good record was juicing?
only billy beane had that level of chutzpah

by norm depalma on Aug 29, 2008 1:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sounds nice

but playing him means he is replacing someone else in lineup
he didnt just trade him for a minor leaguer, he traded him for the lineup spot too

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well assuming that Rolen will soon start playing third

the lineup spot was Mench’s DH against lefty pitching spot, and I think we can afford to give that up though a few more at-bats and I’ll be nostalgic for the hyper-craniated one

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we have noone on the farm?

and no other team besides pitt is dealing these days?

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know the answer to the second question

but I think that, sadly, the answer to question one is no we don’t. Incidentally, I bashed the trade on the site and I don’t think Rince is defending it either.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh I posted the 'we got plundered' link.....

I think it is a bad trade…not terrible cause we traded nothing and got the same but…..I wouldn’t make it

by Tom Dakers on Aug 28, 2008 10:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

its not just that he is 0 for 21

its that he swings for the fences like a nervous a-rod

by norm depalma on Aug 28, 2008 9:47 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

till he has two strikes

then he does his best statue imitation

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nice play scoot

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 9:49 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well we lost again

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 28, 2008 10:01 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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