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Around SBN: Which Players Will Join The 3,000-Hit Club?

And We Note Our Place With Book-Markers: The Dangling Conversation, Part IX - Ongoing Offseason Jays Conversation

It's been awhile since we've done a dangling conversation installment, so let's get to it.  Today we'll be discussing Blue Jays wunderkind Travis Snider and whether the Jays should go ahead and hand him the keys to the leftfield job in 2009. 

Rincewind:Should the Jays clear a spot for Travis Snider to play everyday in 2009, or should they start him in AAA?

Hugo: That’s a good question. Projection systems can’t agree whether Snider would tread water this season if handed a starting job or whether he would be an above-average regular. Marcel and Bill James have him over an .800 OPS while ZIPS doesn’t like him at all, pegging him at only .715 with 151 Ks and only 39 walks. If I had to guess, I think Snider would be a solid regular next season, based on what looked to me to be a mature and solid approach at the plate. Yes, he struck out a lot, but no more than he did in the minors. More worrying was the drop in his walk rate, but I would expect to see that go back toward his minor-league numbers. Snider had a very high BABIP last year (.417) but a good part of that was based on high line-drive rates so some of that should be sustainable. I think he will be a competent major-league hitter if given a full-time job.

That said, I would be much more comfortable with Snider beginning 2009 in the minors, from a team standpoint. I would rather see the Jays sign a bat and have Snider putting up some big AAA numbers in the Pacific Coast League so that he will be the first brought up for the inevitable injury. Even if no one gets hurt and everyone is playing great, we trade Overbay to maximize his value and put Lind at first base. Anyway, my point is that if someone gets hurt or flames out and we have Snider in reserve, that’s a pretty good plan B. If we use Snider, who do we use in the event of an injury or flameout at 1st/DH/OF – Inglett? And it’s not like we’re holding Snider back – he was the youngest position player in the majors last season and there’s no doubt but that he will play a big part in 2009.

Rincewind: My worry is that they do to him what they have done with Lind, bring him up, sent him down, bring him up, send him down……So I am worried that if Snyder is used as the injury replacement this year he’ll suffer the same fate. What I’d want the Jays to do is when he is brought up to the team, be it the beginning of the season or sometime in the middle or the start of 2010 is that they tell him ‘you are now a major leaguer, you won’t see the minors again’. Make a commitment to him so he can learn the league and he doesn’t have to worry that a 0 for 4 will have him back in Las Vegas.

I’m not really against the idea of him starting the year in Toronto, he is young but the best players start when they are younger. If he does, I hope he is told ‘you will play 150 games this year, barring injury, so relax and play the way you can. He is the type of talent you have to make that sort of commitment to and just understand it will pay off in the end.

Lind never seems to have been allowed to just learn how to play in the majors, until Cito came in, and I can’t imagine that has helped his development at all. Yeah I know there isn’t a plan B if Snyder starts but then last year plan B turned out to be Wilkerson and a cast others that shouldn’t have been in the majors. Actually plan A was guys that should have been in the majors. Plan B was the circus coming to town. Inglett is a better backup option than Stewart/Stairs/Wilkerson/Mench were last year.

So while I’d like them to pick up a bat, I don’t want Snyder just an emergency call up, if they want to leave him in Triple A for the season, that’s ok. But if they call him up I want him to be an everyday player and stay one for the next ten years.

Hugo: I agree that Snider shouldn’t have to worry about being sent down after an 0-4 day with 3 Ks and an error. The hard thing is what to do if Snider is brought up to the majors, told he doesn’t have to worry about his job security, and then shows that he’s really not ready. Then you have to go back on your word or keep an unready player in the majors. So when they tell Snider that, I want him to have a very high likelihood of success. I think a little time in the minors wouldn’t hurt.

One idea I've been toying with lately is signing an injury-prone vet like Moises Alou. He performs well when on the field and he’s all but sure to get hurt, which will give Snider his chance to play everyday when it happens. Once Snider comes up, you tell him he's got a job and you can keep Snider up after Alou returns -- mixing and matching Alou with the lefties Lind, Overbay, and Snider, and getting them all regular playing time. And of course there is a lot that Snider could learn from watching Alou, a gifted and accomplished hitter over his career.

Here are our past installments:

Part 1: Good and Bad of 2008
Part 2: Jays Priorities for the Offseason
Part 3: Should the Jays Rebuild?
Part 4: Who Should Lead Off For the Jays?
Part 5: How Should the Jays Fill Out Their Rotation
Part 6: Part 6: Can the Jays Complete with Barajas catching and Scutaro at Short?
Part 7: Should the Jays Trade From Their Bullpen?
Part 8: Part 8: What Should Be Done About the DH Spot?

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the first paragraph talks about different projection systems

but I didn’t mention the most out there projection for Snider, Chone. Chone’s projected line for Snider is absolutely devastating – a .229/.297/.373 abomination in which he will be a subreplacement player and strike out in almost 40% of his plate appearances. It would be hard to imagine that sort of season not stunting his growth, so let’s hope it never happens.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jan 12, 2009 12:30 PM EST reply actions  

Projection Systems

From what I have read, the Bill James projections are all to the tune of 50+ pts OPS higher than most because he is basically banking on a very high run environment this year. Also, wouldn’t Marcels basically just use the numbers that Snider accrued at the end of last year + an age factor? Does it even take minor league experience into account?

Nonetheless, in spite of ZiPS and Chone’s dislike for Snider, I am optimistic that Moonraker will show them!

"The NY Mets are my favorite squadron" -- Apu Nahasapeemapetilon

by jessef on Jan 12, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Bill James projections

Generally speaking, it’s weirder than just the James boys (unless something’s changed in the last couple of years, the usage of James is essentially a brand name here) picking a higher run environment. Historically, the James projections for hitters tend to be the highest, but the pitchers tend to be the lowest, to the extent that it becomes difficult to argue that they’re actually projected in the same environment.

As for Snider, it’s going to be very hard for him to maintain that $H in the majors. You can eliminate a ton of the worst minor league translation misses of the last 25 years by not translating BABIP in a linear manner.

While one can argue that in his limited time in the majors, Snider’s BABIP was justified by his LD rate, his LD rate in itself wasn’t sustainable. Nobody really maintains a LD rate much north of 25%.

I like Snider quite a lot and hope he beats the ZiPS projection, but as well as he hit in his cup of coffee and a couple of weeks for Syracuse, he was rather unimpressive in AA.

I tend to think Sean’s projection is low – his minor league translations tend to be the harshest, harsher than I can figure out based on my minor league research.

--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com

by D.Szymborski on Jan 12, 2009 4:37 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks a lot for stopping by, Dan!

Sure, I wasn’t intending to suggest that Snider’s line-drive rate or BABIP were sustainable over prolonged major-league time, just that a high line drive rate makes a unsustainably high BABIP seem less “flukey.” In other words, if you’re like Snider and your speed is nothing to speak of, and you have a very high BABIP despite a low line drive rate, you’re probably getting lucky on balls in play. If you have a high line-drive rate and a very high BABIP, you’re probably playing a little over your head. In either case the rates will come down, but by how much and is there room for overall improvement notwithstanding?

Personally, I’m hoping that better pitch recognition as he adjusts to the majors and power increasing with age will partially compensate for the BABIP hit that he’s sure to take. I do think poor pitch recognition and contact skills will eat into his skills for a little while.

It is true that Snider wasn’t so impressive at AA before he was promoted. However, when he first got to AA, he was still battling a nagging elbow injury. I have no idea to what extent it affected his swing or power, but I’m not sure that his time in AA was necessarily more representative than his short stints at AAA or with the Jays. I know the projections systems have a limited ability to take things like that into account.

Sounds like you’re not too enamoured with the James system!

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jan 12, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

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