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Top 50 All-Time Jays: #3 Roy Halladay


Harry Leroy Halladay | SP | 1998-

 

 

Doc_medium

Notable Accomplishments: Cy Young Award 2003, All-Star 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009

Roy Halladay was born May 14th, 1977 in Denver, Colorado. He was drafted in the 1st round of the 1995 amateur draft by the Jays out of Arvada West High School where he played both baseball and basketball. He was the 17th pick overall. Darin Erstad was the first pick that year. Other notables picked up before him were Jose Cruz, Jr., Kerry Wood, Todd Helton and Matt Morris. Michael Barrett was also picked at the end of the first round. I think we did pretty well with our choice.

More after the Jump.

Star-divide

Roy rose quickly through our minor league, Rookie League in 1995, High-A in 1996, Double and Triple-A in 1997 and Triple-A again in 1998. He was called up at to the Jays at the end of the 1990 season and made 2 starts for the team. You likely remember he started the last game of the season, against Detroit. He threw a 1-hitter, the one hit being a homer, with two out in the bottom of the ninth, just 1 out away from a no-hitter. We all knew we had something special.

In 1999 Roy spent the entire season with the Jays, splitting time between the starting rotation and the bullpen. He pitched in 36 games, made 18 starts, and had an 8-7 record with a 3.92 ERA. In 149.1 innings he struck out 82, walked 79 (not the strikeout to walk ratio that we would grow to expect from Doc), gave up 156 hits, and had one complete game a shutout. It was a pretty good season for a guy just 22 years old. He also got his one and only career save this season.

The wheels came off for Halladay in 2000. He started the season in the rotation, but by May 15, after 8 starts, Roy was 2-4 with an 11.97 ERA. He spent the rest of the year going back and forth between the Jays and Triple-A Syracuse. He made 11 starts in Syracuse, finishing there with a 5.50 ERA. With the Jays he ended with a 10.64 ERA and a 4-7 record. In 67.3 major league innings he allowed 107 hits, 14 homers, 42 walks, striking out 44.

At the start of the 2001 season Roy was sent all the way down to A-ball Dunedin to ‘rebuild his delivery'. He worked with former Jay pitching coach Mel Queen and changed from a right over the top delivery to a ¾ arm one. It gave him more movement on his pitches. Watching him now it is hard to imagine that his pitches were too straight at one time, now he can't throw anything straight if he were to try. Mel Queen really deserves a lot of credit for helping Doc become the pitcher he now is. Roy pitched in A, AA and AAA that season on his way back to the majors.

Halladay made it back to Toronto in early July and made 16 starts for the team. His first start of the season he set a new career high for strikeouts in a game with 10. The new delivery made a world of difference. In 105.1 innings, Doc struck out 96, only walked 25, gave up just 3 homers for a 3.16 ERA. The promise he showed with the 1 hitter in his second major league start reappeared.

2002 was the year Roy became the pitcher we all know and love now. He finished 19-7, with a 2.93 ERA in 34 starts. He lead the league in innings pitched with 239.1, struck out 168, walked 62 and only gave up 10 homers. He made the All-Star team for the first time, though the game didn't go well for him, he gave up 3 runs in his 1 inning of work. He had the 4th best ERA, 4th most wins, 2 best walks per 9 innings rate, best home run per 9 innings and 6th most strikeouts in the AL.

In 2003 Doc won his (first) Cy Young Award, just the 3rd Jay to win the award. He was amazing, leading the league in wins with 22, starts (36), complete games (9), shut outs (2), innings pitched (266) and strikeout to walk ratio (6.38). He also became the second Jay to record 200 strikeouts in a season and the 3rd Jay to win 10 games both at home and on the road. He made the All-Star team, though he didn't pitch in the game. Strangely enough he didn't start the season well, going 0-2 in his 6 April starts with a 4.89 ERA, but then won his next 11 starts in a row. On September 10th he pitched a 10 inning shutout against the Tigers.

Halladay ended up on the DL twice in 2004 with shoulder troubles. He only made 21 starts, finishing 8-8 with a 4.20 ERA. His control wasn't near as good, 2.6 walks/9, as the year before, 1.1 walks/9.

2005 was going much better, he was 12-4 with a 2.41 ERA and he made the All-Star team for the 3rd time and likely would have been the AL starting pitcher but a line drive off Kevin Mench's bat on July 8th ended his season. The ball hit him in the shin and broke his leg. Before the broken leg he was the odds on favorite to win the Cy Young that year.

He came back strong in 2006, going 16-5 with a 3.19 ERA in 2 starts. He made the All-Star team again and finished 3rd in the Cy Young voting. He missed a few starts with shoulder soreness at the end of the season.

Also, in 2006, Doc signed a 3 year, $40 million contract extension, keeping him under Blue Jay control until the end of the 2010 season. As much as people like to rag on J.P. Riccardi for some of the contracts signed under his watch, but this has to be one of the best contracts ever. Doc has easily been worth at least double what he's been paid. Had he gone to free agency he would have signed for a lot more money and at least twice the number of years.

In 2007 he went 16-7 with a 3.71 ERA. He missed the All-Star team but finished 5th in the Cy Young voting. He led the league in complete games with 7.He missed time going onto the DL after an appendectomy in May.

In 2008 Doc won 20 games for the second time, winning number 20 in his last start of the season, a complete game shutout of the Yankees. He and Roger Clemens are the only Jay pitchers to win 20 more than once. He lost just 11 games. Winning 20 games with the crappy offense we had is pretty amazing. He led the league in innings pitched with 246 and complete games with 9, though with our wonderful offense he lost 3 of those games, in 3 consecutive starts at the end of April. He stepped up his strikeout rate that year too, jumping to 7.5 strikeouts per 9, likely due to relying more on his cut fastball than he had in previous years. Before this jump in strikeouts there was some worry that his strikeout numbers were dropping to the range where he couldn't keep continue to be one of the elite pitchers in baseball. He came in 2nd in the Cy Young voting to Cliff Lee. He was struck in the head with a line drive on June 20th in Pittsburgh but he didn't miss a start because of it.

This past season started out terrific again for Doc, he was 10-1 after 13 starts and pitched at least 7 innings in each one of those starts. Then in his 14th start he strained his groin. When he came back from the injury he wasn't quite the same, losing 7 of his next 10 decisions. But he turned it around again in September going 4-2 with 4 complete games. He started the All-Star game but gave up 3 runs in his 2 innings.

And, of course, he had to deal with trade rumors for the month of July. Trade rumors are starting up again. I'm hoping he'll still be part of the team at least until I finish writing this.

Roy is married to Brandy (she's a fine girl, a good wife she would make) and they have 2 children. They do a lot of charity work, they run ‘Doc's Box', where they invite children from the Hospital for Sick Children and their families to watch games at Rogers Center and Brandy seems to head every charity drive the team runs.

Doc is just terrific to watch pitch and his professionalism is a great example for the other pitchers on the team. If/when he is traded or leaves the team as a free agent I'll be very sad. He has been the Jay's opening day starter 7 years in a row and it will be strange seeing someone else take that honor.

Roy Halladay's place among Jay career pitching leaders:

ERA (>500 innigs) 5th 3.43
Wins 2nd 148
Win-Loss % (>50 decisions) 2nd .661
WHIP (>500 innings) 3rd 1.198
Hits per 9 innings (>500 innings) 9th 8.782
Walks per 9 (>500 innings) 2nd 2.001
Strikeouts per 9 (>500 innings) 7th 6.574
Games Played 8th 313
Innings Pitched 3rd 2047.2
Strikeouts 2nd 1495
Games Started 3rd 287
Complete Games 3rd 49
Shutouts 2nd 15
Strikeouts/Walks 2nd 3.286
Home Runs/9 3rd 0.756
Losses 5th 76

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#3

Say whaaaa?
I can think of maybe who is one ahead of him…who am I forgetting?

Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.

by craig in calgary on Nov 11, 2009 2:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i was struggling with that as well

by aagoodfella on Nov 11, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, there's these 2 guys

One rhymes with Darlos Celgado. The other rhymes with Save Dtieb.

by Jevant on Nov 11, 2009 2:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Riiiiiiiiight

I forgot about Save Dtieb. He had a nasty Burve Call.

Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.

by craig in calgary on Nov 11, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Alomar is already on the list

Although I’d say a strong argument could be made that he could be top 3. Only played here a few years though. That’s probably the problem.

by Jevant on Nov 11, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

True

One could argue he was a more valuable Jay than Doc…Doc’s been very dominant for many years but hasn’t brought us any WS titles as Alomar has…ya I know, Alomar had more talent around him, but you get my drift.

Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.

by craig in calgary on Nov 11, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

By that rationale, Ed Sprague deserves to be ahead of Doc, considering that the Jays might not have won in 1993 without his two run shot.

Tom’s been pretty consistant about the Top 50 being weighted by both term of service as well as achievements and stats. Otherwise, your top three would be a mix of Dave Winfield, Paul Molitor, Roger Clemans, Rickey Henderson and Jack Morris.

by dexfarkin on Nov 12, 2009 10:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well then Sprague should be up there! (Plus I loved his wife)

The ultimate goal is the WS, and noone in the top 3 will have achieved this with the Bluejays.
This is a great list, but I do think Joe Carter and Robbie Alomar should both be in the top 10 as they were instrumental in WS wins.

Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.

by craig in calgary on Nov 12, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't do a 'most valuable list'

or list of jays that were on the playoff teams. That would be boring. Did a list of guys that contributed the most to the Jays. Cater had a couple of ok seasons with the Jays and a few bad ones. Alomar had 1 great season, 2 good seasons and 2 poor seasons…..

by Tom Dakers on Nov 12, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Riddle me this.

Would you rather have had no Joe Carter/Robbie Alomar or no Roy Halladay/Carlos Delgado?
Doc and Carlos were probably the most dominant Jays for a long period of time, but we would arguably still have no WS titles.

Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.

by craig in calgary on Nov 12, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Can’t agree. It’s the best All Time Jays, as opposed to Jays involved in the best Jays seasons. So it’s not a question of most valuable in relation to the franchise goals, but the best who played for it.

Eric Hinske has two more World Series rings than Don Mattingly. Is Eric Hinske a more valuable Yankee than Mattingly? He’s got two more than Carl Yaztrzemski, Ted Williams and one more than Wade Boggs. Is Eric Hinske a more valuable Red Sox than Yaz, Williams and Boggs?

by dexfarkin on Nov 12, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We had this argument just last week

but I totally reject the idea that seasons have no value unless you win the World Series. It’s just stupid. If you think Manny Lee is a better player than Roy Halladay because he had better players around him than Roy did then….well there is no reason to argue cause we’ll never get close enough on the issue to talk about it.

by Tom Dakers on Nov 12, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Look, its all opinion, but thats what makes the debate fun.

IMO, the end goal is the WS. Can you be a very good player and have a successful career without a WS title? Of course. All I’m saying is, this list is of All time Jays, and In my opinion Joe Carter and Robbie deserve to be Top 10, because of their contributions to WS teams.

…and yes dexfarkin, I'm saying Hinske is better than Yaz Williams and Boggs

Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.

by craig in calgary on Nov 12, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well if you think hinske is better than Williams...

you is a fool. If players that played almost no role on a World Series team are better than Hall of Fame players…. well…then don’t do a best player list…just post the rosters for the WS teams. But I still don’t believe the only way to be of value is to win the WS.

by Tom Dakers on Nov 12, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Haha, sorry

That was my “sarcasm font”.
I am not sure Hinske is a better ball player than I am.

Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.

by craig in calgary on Nov 12, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeeaaah

Well, we’re certainly not going to ever agree. If you believe a player’s career worth is defined in WS shares, well, actually you’d be a fairly standard US sports writer with a HoF vote, actually. But I’m afraid it does make me discount your opinion on the subject.

Divisions are won by relatively good teams. World Series are won by relatively good teams that get lucky at the right time. The second luck is given objective worth in a discussion about a player’s relative worth, you might as well be giving out the numbers based on intangibles and which players you liked best when you were in school.

by dexfarkin on Nov 12, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have a hard time factoring in capturing a WS in evaluating MVP worth to a team. No player, no matter how good can win a WS for his team. Comparing a player’s performance on the 1992-3 Jays versus the 2000s Jays seems like comparing apples and oranges to me. How could I say Alomar (as much as I love him) is more valuable to the Jays than Halladay? If Halladay played for the 1992-3 Jays do you not think he would have boosted their chances even more of winning? Of course he would. It is only by virtue of destiny where Roy played for lesser stacked rosters that the Jays did not achieve WS while Roy was on the mound. To me, when thinking about MVP, I have a hard time giving the WS much weight (some but not alot). I would have to go with WAR (seems hypocritical based on my earlier WAR criticisms but it is the $$$ part of WAR that I think is flawed) as a better way of comparing value to a team. If a player demonstrated exceptionally strong or weak post-season performance, than I might give it more weight, but Roy cannot be held accountable at all, at all, at all, for Jays not getting a WS IMHO. Completely off the table as a basis of comparison IMHO.

by aagoodfella on Nov 12, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think there’s something to be said for being a major part of winning 2 WS, which Alomar did. But a WS win does not automatically confer any kind of additional favor for just showing up. Carter hit a WS winning home run. Yeah, I say you can take it into account. Just not to the point that it negates a couple of very bad years wholly.

I actually think Tom’s methodology has been a pretty good blend between the actual performance of the player, and their performance in the context of their time and meaning as a Blue Jay. Sadly enough, there is a point to be made that certain ‘intangibles’ can even been considered to rightly factor in as well. It is just all about how you weight things against each other.

by dexfarkin on Nov 12, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah... I moved some guys a few spots if they contributed to a WS or playoff

I moved Sprague a few spots from where I had him. Carter was up a few. Borders made the list because of the Series MVP.

Likely in a year or two, we’ll take another look at the list. Aaron Hill could jump on the list now. Rios would likely drop a few spots. Downs could go up some. If Scoot plays with the Jays next year he’s likely be on the list.

by Tom Dakers on Nov 12, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Criteria for "Greatest Jay" rankings

First off, kudos to Tom for putting this list and the write-ups together. Having something like this to discuss is nice.

I do think some more concrete criteria would be good. I feel the criteria as described are a bit too subjective, and there’s too large a weighting on career numbers, which include totals from bad seasons. This is probably why a guy like Ed Sprague, a career below-average third baseman, gets ranked higher than Kelly Gruber, who at his best was arguably among the top 3 third basemen in baseball.

A simple criteria for greatness could be to weight the seasons as a Jay and add up the weightings.

by TenaciousDirk on Nov 13, 2009 12:27 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Harry Leroy? Really? Why did I not know that?!?!

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Nov 13, 2009 1:35 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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