Day Two of Roy Halladay Trade Rumors.....
by Tom Dakers on Dec 15, 2009 4:46 PM EST
in Toronto Blue Jays News
Email
PrintThought I'd give us a new thread to continue discussing this.
Please guys let's not have this drag on a week before it's official. I know Rome wasn't built in a day but could this trade be finished in two or three days.
So there is nothing much really new other than it's being Twittered all over that the Jays are flipping Michael Taylor for Brett Wallace from the A's. I was really looking forward to seeing Taylor in the outfield. Not sure I understand the point of getting Wallace, who looks like someone that will have to move to first base. I was hoping we were going to give Brian Dopirak a shot at first if Lyle is moved. And without Taylor we still have a gaping hole in RF. I was really hoping we were doing something that would stop Cito from using Bautista in RF this year. Wallace better be an amazing bat.
Jon Heyman says the Halladay extension is done, 3 years and one vesting option year. So things should be moving forward.
In other news the Red Sox signed Mike Cameron for 2 years and $15 million. Seems like a lot. So looks like Jason Bay won't be back there. If Cameron plays center and Ellsbury left they should have a much better outfield defense, but might cost them a bit of offense.
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Maybe Taylor is being flipped for Wallace
To make room in LF for Jason Bay?
Not the most popular opinion in these parts, but I don’t think its completely inconcievable.
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 15, 2009 5:26 PM EST reply actions
After reading up on Taylor some more Im not so sure we should be giving up on him.
So even after this trade we still need a RF. Nelson Cruz is on the block and Texas needs a 1B and pitching……think we can get that done? Maybe Overbay, Cecil and some other parts?
I really want to hear some explaination on why we'd give up on Taylor
the more i read about Wallace, the less sense this trade makes.
Onions Baby Onions
I don't like trading prospects with Oakland
I would be willing to bet that the Oakland organization lead by Beane is better at evaluating talent then AA and co.
Oakland also traded Marco Scutaro
for Graham Godfrey and Kristian Bell. It’s more important to find the players you want than to worry about who you’re trading with. That said, I’m not in love with the acquisition of another 1B/DH type.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
JP was always good at getting good stuff from Beane
AA, so far, not so much.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
Wait, how can you say that when this is AA’s first deal with Beane? They’re both minor leaguers at this point, so from a value perspective in terms of major league impact, it’s negligible. How about we determine in three years whether AA failed to make a good trade with Beane?
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Think of the trash JP gave to Beane in all those trades
Even if Wallace turns out to be good, AA gave up a legitimate prospect for him.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
Comparing apples and oranges here. JP has never acquired a player of Wallace’s quality in any trade with Oakland.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Hinske had a better rookie season than Ryan Braun
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
Hinske was a 17th round player. Not saying rounds matter much, but in any case, Hinske was never regarded as high as Wallace in terms of potential. And Hinske was traded for Miguel Cairo, a long-time versatile player who put up pretty solid numbers in his career. Not much of a steal, especially with how Hinske turned out.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Miguel Cairo was never worth more than one win above replacement in any year of his career
and was below replacement twice. His career WAR is 0.8. I think Hinske had that by May.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
Er, by career I mean since 2002
but that’s the relevant time period here anyways.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
We’re arguing semantics here, but Cairo had a pretty solid season with the Yanks in 2004 and average seasons around that year, while filling in multiple positions defensively. Both Hinske and Cairo turned out to platoon players in the end anyway. One great year of Hinske doesn’t mitigate the fact that Hinske was not seen as highly regarded as Wallace when he was first traded. Was it good trade for JP? Sure. But by no means was it a sensational one to definitively say JP did so much better in trades with Oakland, when we have little to no such sample size for AA to compare.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Scutaro was a 4 win shortstop.
For Wallace to be a 4 win 1B he’d have to fall between Todd Helton and Kendry Morales. If he sticks at third he’d “only” have to match Michael Young, Mark Reynolds, or… uh… Scott Rolen.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
Scoots was a great acquisition for JP. But it’s not like JP was trading for Scoots at his peak. Oakland didn’t view him as anything more than a super utility player, not a starter. If he was a starter, Oakland either doesn’t give him up or perhaps more accurately, doesn’t give him up for a song. This isn’t about assessing their contribution after the trade was made. This is about the player’s value before the trade was made. Can you say Scoots was more highly regarded than someone like Wallace at the time of their respective trades?
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
My point isn't that Wallace is terrible
my point is that this isn’t a huge quality swing towards us like JP’s trades with Beane were.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
I still don’t agree because you’re still using the benefit of hindsight to say JP made better trades than AA, despite different circumstances. Going back to Scoots, honestly, I can’t recall too many people thinking it was a landslide win for JP when he first was traded. Nobody could have predicted his career high numbers and I’m sure JP and his scouts saw it as an added bonus when Scoots exceeded their expectations. If JP really though Scoots could have done this a long time ago, he would have acquired him a long time ago. I’m not saying it was a bad trade at all. But I’m saying different situations call for different trade parameters.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Erroneous
Let me try to understand your argument…
Because AA failed to fleece Billy Beane in this deal he is clearly much worse than JP.
Is that what you’re saying? I hope it isn’t.
Firstly, it’s way too early to tell. Secondly, expecting a GM to fleece another GM every time is absurd.
Why do we do this to ourselves?
That’s what Torgen is arguing (at least that’s what I gathered), while I made my arguments why AA’s trade for Wallace with Taylor is a different sort of trade altogether.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Very different.
There’s a clear logjam on the corners in Oakland and this keeps Wallace from being blocked in the system.
Why do we do this to ourselves?
Scutaro
Has had one relevant baseball season in his career let’s not forget..
one? hmmmm he was great in 2008 too....
I’m never sure why we have to run down a guy that was terrific for us.
I’m not sure I dissed Scoots for what he did for the Jays, just that his value when he got traded to Toronto was vastly different from what player he turned out to be, that’s all. Much love for Scoots in this corner for sure.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
It’s not only that, but to use JP’s trades for players that were astute pick-ups, rather than franchise moving pieces (hopefully) is inaccurate and disingenuous. Their values weren’t the same at the time of the trades, so the argument is moot.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Let's stop bashing JP for his trades
I think he did OK on his trades, where he won some of them and lost some of them.
I think his free agent signings were more questionable.
That being said
I do think Wallace will be a player you can stick in the middle of the order and never worry about production.
Nice little writeup:
Toronto made out extremely well, netting a high-upside pitcher in Kyle Drabek that they don’t have anywhere in the system. Toronto has solid rotation depth, especially in the major leagues, but no one you can give the ball to on Opening Day and expect to win. Drabek can be that guy.
Travis D’Arnaud has been coveted by Toronto ever since he was selected a pick ahead of the Jays in 2007. The Blue Jays have J.P. Arencibia in their farm system, but there are questions about his ability to stay behind the plate, and D’Arnaud is the better value anyways. Michael Taylor was a Blue Jay for only the briefest of moments, as he was immediately shipped to Oakland for Brett Wallace.
While Taylor might evolve into a 20/20 player and provide good overall value out of the outfield, Wallace is the type of hitter Toronto needs in its next wave of youngsters. Toronto absolutely needs the upside that Wallace brings with the bat and can afford to worry about defense later. Assuming Wallace can’t stick at third (which is not a done deal just yet), he has the options of moving to first or designated hitter, with no one blocking him at either position.
Toronto has put themselves in great position to field a young, competitive club as soon as 2012. That’s all they could have asked for in a trade of Halladay.
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 15, 2009 5:52 PM EST reply actions
no one blocking? apparently he has not heard of this fellow developing into a hella-batter — Adam Lind
Meh
Lind is just an average DH. I can't see him winning the Edgar Martinez award anytime soon.
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 15, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
When is Wallace MLB-ready
are we going to have an excess at 3B next year?
Everything points to him at the very least starting the year in AAA. I would expect to see him in August.
Can someone explain why hes considered such an great prospect?
i mean, his numbers really arent anything really special… i mean theyre good… but not great.
Onions Baby Onions
What excess?
Don’t tell me you’re including Edwin Encarnacion in your “excess”. He ranks slightly better than replacement level.
Why do we do this to ourselves?
He was replacement level this year when he broke his wrist
Your average replacement level player didn’t break his wrist this year, so in terms of talent, E5 is clearly ahead. The question is how good he’ll be in a year in which he didn’t break his wrist.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
Scouting report: A pure hitter from the left side, he has good plate discipline and the ability to hit for average and power. “A good athlete stuck in a bad body” is the perfect phrase for him as he’s more athletic defensively than people anticipated. He showed he may be able to stick at third as long as he watches his conditioning.
Upside potential: An All-Star-caliber bat at third base, he’ll never win a Gold Glove, but he can stay at the hot corner and his bat will play in the big leagues soon.
That’s from MLB.com
Sounds like a Travis Snider scouting report!
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 15, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
maybe the Jays should hire a conditioning coach. I would like to see a lot more six packs on that team than the result of six packs.
Just look at what Lind did this off-season
That should be proof to any of the Jays that weight training and proper nutrition will help them out.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
I’ve been in love with Wallace ever since he was in the Card’s system. The man is very close to MLB ready.
HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!
by BenjiDoc on Dec 15, 2009 6:17 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Ranked number 42 in league prospects...
Here’s the whole report and mini-video on him if you are interested.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/minorleagues/prospects/y2009/profile.jsp?t=p_top&pid=477165
on the trade deadline list Wallace ranks 19th, one ahead of Taylor at 20th
dominic brown is 24th
drabek is 26th
montero is
bourjos is 12th
Top 50 Prospects
Rank
Player
Team
Pos
1 Jason Heyward ATL OF
2 Madison Bumgarner SF LHP
3 Mike Stanton FLA OF
4 Justin Smoak TEX 1B
5 Buster Posey SF C
6 Neftali Feliz TEX RHP
7 Chris Tillman BAL RHP
8 Brian Matusz BAL LHP
9 Jarrod Parker ARI RHP
10 Tim Beckham TB SS
11 Alcides Escobar MIL SS
12 Jesus Montero NYY C
13 Matt LaPorta CLE 1B
14 Wade Davis TB RHP
15 Freddie Freeman ATL 1B
16 Jake Arrieta BAL RHP
17 Jeremy Hellickson TB RHP
18 Yonder Alonso CIN 1B
19 Brett Wallace OAK 3B
20 Michael Taylor PHI OF
21 Carlos Santana CLE C
22 Desmond Jennings TB OF
23 Austin Jackson NYY OF
24 Domonic Brown PHI OF
25 Logan Morrison FLA 1B
26 Kyle Drabek PHI RHP
27 Jason Castro HOU C
28 Pedro Alvarez PIT 3B
29 Mike Moustakas KC SS/3B
30 Eric Hosmer KC 1B
31 Josh Vitters CHI 3B
32 Lars Anderson BOS 1B
33 Tim Alderson PIT RHP
34 Ben Revere MIN OF
35 Christian Friedrich COL LHP
36 Aaron Hicks MIN OF
37 Casey Kelly BOS RHP/SS
38 Martin Perez TEX LHP
39 Jason Knapp CLE RHP
40 Matt Dominguez FLA 3B
41 Michael Bowden BOS RHP
42 Peter Bourjos LAA OF
43 Julio Borbon TEX OF
44 Mat Latos SD RHP
45 Jhoulys Chacin COL RHP
46 Jennry Mejia NYM RHP
47 Derek Norris WAS C
48 Jaff Decker SD OF
49 Matt Moore TB LHP
50 Angel Villalona SF 1B
names of interest in bold
Not one Jays prospect in the top 50?
Gee whilickers
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 15, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry for the strong languge Hugo's mom
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 15, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
From Bastian's twerps
Jays mulling shifting Brett Wallace to 1B. Current Jays 1B Overbay only signed through ‘10 and 1B prospcect David Cooper’s stock has fallen.
Ok. So Lind DH’s? Where does Dopirak go? What about Ruiz? Queer move IMHO.
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 15, 2009 6:35 PM EST reply actions
yep, given the Jays roster constraints, principally, not enough OF and too much 1B, I am still questioning the Taylor for Wallace transaction
well, I am much more positive than others here about Wallace
But I assume this is all going to make a lot more sense in 2-3 weeks. I have to assume that, AA has a few more transactions in store once the dust settles on this mega-deal to explain exactly why he is more concerned about 1B than OF.
i just fixed my sarcasm meter!
otherwise i would have not be able to pick that up
I can't remember who was asking this (and if it was answered in one of the other threads)
As to the cash being $6 million being sent to the Phils, it’s apparently the value difference between Halladay’s contract and Lee’s (15m and 9m) – from thefightins.com
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
Even if we trade Overbay or just wait until his contract runs out after this season
we still have Jose Bautista in RF… along with Doparik and Ruiz in AAA because they have nowhere to play. I dont understand.
Onions Baby Onions
JoBa cannot hit rightie pitch. He hit 235 last year. I repeat TWO THREE FIVE. Having JoBa in RF is not a comforting explanation.
I think we should hold the panic button off until we see all the moves made, maybe
there is a deal in the works for an outfielder…
give me a break, I'm not pretending I have a scoop, I'm saying AA said he couldn't
do his other moves until Halladay was traded, maybe there is more to come. My point is aagoodfella you’ve be spazzing in all your comments, settle down, hold the criticism untill the season starts and we see what the roster is.
church
I’m not sure why people are saying church, but I want to play
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 15, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Church/Bautista
As an RF platoon represents a .290/.360/.480 leadoff hitter with some speed and above average defense. I suggested it would be an excellent low cost way of securing the corner and replacing Scutaro at the top of the order.
Bautista? As in Jose A. Bautista?
A guy with a career OBP just north of .330 who has swiped a whopping 14 bases in his career?
Batting leadoff?
Woof.
Why do we do this to ourselves?
if we use it that way
Cito thinks Bautista is an everyday leadoff man
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Sadly yes. Still, if you got Church specifically for the purpose of a platoon, you assume the front office could say ‘this is why we got this guy and re-upped this guy and that’s how it will be played’.
I just really like Bautista against lefties. He just seems to be so locked in and has such a good eye and pull power facing them, and his arm is really good. Church is a great gloveman with some power and tremendous control of the zone. Together, we’d have one of the most dangerous leadoff positions in baseball.
Bautista vs. Lefties (avg / obp / slg)
career stats
265 / 360 / 478
2009 stats
293 / 382 / 537 (ROCK ON DUDE !)
you know what is interesting? JoBa has 59 career homeruns, but 33 (or 56%) of his taters are versus righties (his weak side)
by aagoodfella on Dec 16, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
yep, this is why JoBa’s overall results blow so bad because he plates 2/3 of the time vs righties
and why a platoon situation for JoBa will demand somebody stronger than the Gathster
by aagoodfella on Dec 17, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Quote from Drabek
“I’m not sure they would [call to say you’re not getting traded], but if they did I would be thankful. If they ended up doing that, it would say a lot that they don’t want to get rid of me. But you have me and Brown at Double-A and Michael Taylor at Triple-A, and this is Roy Halladay, one of the best pitchers in the Majors. It’s kind of amazing to be talked about with him.”
I dont like this guy already
Onions Baby Onions
failure
So we can pretty much conclude this trade is a failure for the Jays given how most people here are raving about Taylor. Why is the manager so dumb? Can’t he see Taylor has got much more potential? If Wallace doesn’t end up hitting 40 hrs, he will be a bust.
well, per the list above Wallace is rated 19 versus 20 for Taylor … so by that measure, AA actually traded up
I just think Taylor is a better fit give the Jays’ current roster situation, but if he makes other moves, as ClintB suggests, it could work out ok
could be that the jays front office thinks that in the coming free agent years that an
outfielder will be easier to acquire than a power hitting corner infielder, and since they don’t plan on competing this year or next prefered to fill the infielder spot with a young controllable and cheap promising talent while they had the chance.
by ClintB on Dec 15, 2009 7:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sigh...
If we netted Wallace in the initial trade and flipped him for Taylor people would still be moaning about how we “gave up on Wallace.”
Why do we do this to ourselves?
Good points
both of you.
This is the very beginning of a lengthy march back to respectability/having a good team. There’s no point in focusing too much on who’ll be good in 2010.
I’m just so used to every year thinking if things broke right we could sneak into the top 2 of our division.
Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome
The "Trade"
Wallace will become Youkilis. Almost identical – except for the fact he bats left. A fantastic number three hitter.
Drabek – to me – at his best could become a cross between Stieb and Lincecum. Not so worse.
d"Arnaud is like Zaunnie – only with a bit more upside.
In Wallace and Drabek we get the two “first round” draft picks we’d have gotten if we’d kept Roy – EXCEPT – both of these guys are near to guaranteed STARS – and instead of drafting them next June – both will be ready for the bigs by then – or very soon thereafter. An excellent trade!
I have to think AA thinks Butter can keep Wallace at third. As it stands now Wallace just might have been able to stay at third without Butter – with Butter in his corner I think he’s almost a safe bet to be able to stay there. Butter is smooth – very smooth.
Yuck
Wallace will become Youkilis
Does this mean he is going to bitch and moan about every called strike?
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 15, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
does it mean he will rush the mound, slow enough so his team gets there to bail him out, when the pitcher throws him to the ground?
Any excuse to post Ian(?) from Veggie Tales
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Except Taylor looks like hes going to become
Barry Bonds with roids except without the roids
Onions Baby Onions
according to baseball america's scouting report Taylor lacks the plate discipline and
strike zone recognition to be a Bonds, he also had a high BABIP which would give him an inflated overage for last year.
Wallace certainly isn't known for plate discipline
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
my comment was in repsonse to the people worrying that Taylor would be Barry
Bonds, it had no bearing on Wallace’s hitting abilities.
no
but it does bear on the comparison between the two. Personally, I could care less how good Taylor ends up being if Wallace is what the Jays think he is
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Something people are forgetting...
Taylor has diabetes ans weighs 260 lbs. That WILL catch up to him.
except Youk plays excellent D at both corners, not so sure yet that Wallace can do that at 3rd,
maybe butter can help him
I have no problem that. After a year where the Jays got eaten alive by RH pitching, because the only competant LH bat they had was Lind, I say bring on more LH bats.
made me check this one out....
Last year the Jays hit:
Vs. RHP .268/.334/.444
Vs. LHP .261/.328/.431
So we didn’t get eaten alive by RHP…..we hit them better than lefties….
and course, Overbay hit RHP very well...
Snider did ok against them. And weirdly Wells hit RHP decent and lefties not at all…….
To me, this basically looks AA and friends clearly do not view Dopirak and Ruiz as options at 1B.
Right or wrong, that ’s what it looks like.
Or they have faith in Wallace’s ability to play 3B.
Either way, I don’t think any of the moves have an impact on 2010.
So, I hope Overbay gets moved, so that we can see if there is anything there to Dopirak/Ruiz in 2010, and with emphasis on Dopirak, who was a top prospect not too long ago.
Agreed on AA and scouts not being overly confident on Ruiz/Dopirak
I am all about giving Dopirak and Ruiz chances to stick with the club, but they were in the minors for a long while for a reason. I don’t understand why there is so much hesitancy on getting more contingency plans in the infield. Dopirak and Ruiz are guys people are hoping/assuming are not only major league regulars, but good ones at that despite sketchy evidence (raking in the minors at their age isn’t that impressive). I have nothing against Ruiz or Dopirak, and the way Citocity used Ruiz was absolutely nonsensical, but both are older players short on major league experience. Lind isn’t automatically going to play 1B if Overbay departs, and the Jays weren’t confident Ruiz/Dopirak could fill Overbay’s position either. The Jays looked at Wallace, a highly regarded corner prospect who actually has experience at both 1B/3B and traded an arguably equivalent player in Taylor for him.
The Jays still have pieces to change their roster further with this potential move. If Wallace can handle 3B, EE becomes expendable. If Wallace can fill 1B, Overbay becomes even more expendable (even if I don’t necessarily agree he needs to be moved). It’s not if trading Taylor automatically means the Jays are shutdown from making any more moves, which people weren’t saying to be fair. I just can’t say this is a bad move for the Jays until we get further into the offseason and have a better idea what the final roster for this year and the future will look like in April.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Maybe Stewart will be ready by then...
And don’t forget about McGowan and Litsch. You never know how they’ll come back. Lots of depth, but no ace.
between
Cecil, Drabek, Marcum, Stewart, McGowan, Romero, I think at least one will emerge as a legitimate number 1 pitcher, if not the traditional Doc-style “Ace.”
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I also agree the future looks bright, was just sayin...
Doc is special. Due to his high performance and high IP, he really was like 1.5 aces, given the fact that pitched many more innings than most other #1’s.
ya, big maybe. I think McGowan and Marcum have a chance, with McGowan having the best chance believe it or not.
Cecil and Romero? I just can’t see it. I see them more as mid-rotation.
Never seen Drabek and Stewart yet, so can’t provide opinion yet.
I agree on McGowen has the best chance, I just hope his arm didn’t go all BJ Ryan and fell off during surgery.
I think his arm is okay, but it’s the other injuries that are propping up for Dusty that is most troubling. His body seems to be having difficulty adjusting and as a result, seeing injuries to his knee and groin rather than pure arm problems. I don’t think it would be prudent for the Jays to expect much out of McGowan right now, regardless of him being a favourite of mine (and others it looks like).
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
I wonder which player Jon Heyman thinks we should keep?
SI_JonHeyman
3-team technically involves 4. #jays will send athletic CF michael taylor to #a’s for well-travelled 1B brett wallace
heyman has been anti jays in his updates and columns since the July deadline, I think he
went out of his way to try and lower Halladay’s trade value
yeah no doubt, I followed Heyman on twitter until I got too pi**ed off, he also reported the
most made up deals at last deadline that never happened
I'll admit thinking about it more....
Wallace and Taylor seem pretty even to me, I like Taylor because he fills a need but if the Jays figure Wallace is the better prospect, you should always grab the better player and worry about need second.
Not big limits...get the best player you can especially if they are prospects....
if you have the better player you can move him for a better player.
So as the atarting pitching staff stands right now there is
Romero
porbably Tallet.
hopefully McGowen
and some of combination of Cecil/Purcey/Zepper
Litsch and Marcum by the sounds of it won’t be ready til the middle of next year, if at all.
Thats a staff that is left handed heavy. I still think they should look in the bargain bin for a RH #3-4 starter.
Why would you want a lesser starter just because of the hand he throws with?
Marcum will be ready, McGowan won’t be. I’d bet that Tallet won’t start the year in the rotation.
I think tallet might not even start on the team, seems like a good trade candidate, somebody
from the pen has to go don’t they:
Downs
League
Frasor
Roeinke
Accardo
Camp
Carlson
Tallet
I'd think Accardo will end up in a trade
but if not Roeinke has options, some of the others likely do too
I didn't see the point in tendering him this year
But someone on this blog pointed out that (if he pitches enough innings) he could be type B FA next year.
I agree with the Accardo trade, though I don’t see the harm in keeping him.
I just don't think it's smart to keep a guy that doesn't want to be here
Tallet…a league average starter has value.
Oh. And Janssen might be in the mix too. He's had another offseason to recover and get ready.
I also hear about Farquar and Buzachero. They might get a shot this year, though surely not to start the season.
The strength of this team is in the bullpen
As long as Frasor can hold up as the closer everyone else will fall into place nicely. Downs seems to be far more effective as the setup.
I think Jassen could be very effective as long relief/spot starter, at least from what he’s shown. He doesn’t seem to be as comfortable with just taking the ball every fifth day.
I don’t think a number 1-2 is going to fall in the Jays lap, but I think if they can get another RH starter, they can win some games on matchups alone.
but you don't match up starters much....
they generally make the start when their turn comes up, you don’t hold them out for 3 days to pitch against a different team.
If you have a team that eats up LH pitching and 4 out of 5 starters are LH, its hard to get around that. Its not like any of the LH pitchers are dominant either.
but what team do you know of that moves their rotation around in the middle of a season to fit a team
Add in we had the strange little trend of having lefty pitchers that did better against right handed batting.
having 4 lefties is better than 4 righties on a staff, i’ll agree with that. But during the year there are off days and time to tinker with the staff to get matchups in order. In a 3-4 game series, you have to give other team different looks to throw them off there game.
I'll bet you you can't find 5 times that a team moved rotations around so that a righty or lefty could face a particular team last year..
you move a rotation around today, next week you have the opposite match. Starters do best when they work consistently. You might move a guy up a day because he’s a better starter but that’s about all.
Of course there aren’t many teams with a huge difference between facing righties and lefties. Jays hit righties better last year but not to the point a team would change things up. You might like to add a lefty at Yankee stadium but still not to the point of messing with a staff.
You’re right there probably isn’t, but there isn’t too many staffs that will be trotting out the amount of questionables the Jays will be having this year, for lack of dominence I think they have to plan ahead and look at matchups. Not necessarily overhaul the staff, but pushing a guy back, moving another ahead a day, which get me back to the point of finding another RH starter.
They won't.....
if you are a baseball man you pick the best arms and try to get the most innings out of them. If a lefty is a better pitcher than a righty you want him to pitch more.
if you can find a team that hits lefties 20 points better than righties I’d be surprised. 20 points of batting average is 2%…
Add in that Romero, Tallet, Carlson and some of the other lefties pitch better against RH batters trying to mix and match is just too much guess work. Start your best available starter each day.
Marcum is apparently ready now.
Please. I don’t want Tallet in the rotation!
we have about 12 possible starters....
spring training will be fun. If Richmond’s poor finish was because of it being his first season of pitching a lot of innings he could surprise. Ray is interesting pitcher. Scrabble was terrific last year. Cecil could be very good as the team stretches his innings out. I’m looking forward to how things go this spring.
It looks to me like AA doesn't think we have the one potential 1B he wants yet....
he might be right…AL East has some beasts at first, maybe he feels we need a beast there for the next 10 years. that might be the wallace thing.
well to be fair...
Overbay isn’t here for long so isn’t bad to look for better. Dopirak is (I think) 27 this year, so he could be a one or two year fill in but he’ll be past prime soon. If AA is looking for guys that can be part of the team in a few years when he thinks we are good, maybe he’s right that we don’t have the guy.
I’d give someone we have a chance at the job this year, but maybe he’s smarter looking further ahead. I’m sure he is a better judge of talent than I am.
Ruiz
I really hope Ruiz glove work in winter ball is coming along well. He could surprise and bring in some much needed intimidation to the lineup. At worst, it would be nice if he could be a competant platoon for Overbay, either Ruiz or Dopirak. Millar was nice in that sitaution last year, but towards the end of the year he wasn’t hitting a lick.
i hope he at least gets a shot
he could be a guy like Nelson Cruz, who was also a highly touted prospect that didnt put it all together at first.
Onions Baby Onions
well he could....
but his Major League equivalents aren’t good. I’d guess the jays feelings about him have more chance of being right than mine are…I’ve not seen him swing. But then I’d give him first this year and see what you got.
contending?
Am I the only one who thinks the Jays have a chance to contend next year? They can easily surpass the Red Sox to take the second place in the division and then rule at the wildcard. IMO, their pitching, no matter starting or relief, is better than the Red Sox. And Wallace is gonna hit 40 homers.
nobody hits 40HRs in his first year!
I want Ruiz in the DH spot. The man is a beast and tore it up in AAA. He didn’t get much playing time because Lind was at the DH, and Overpaid was at 1B. Trade Overpaid already.
Future rotation is probably:
1. McGowan (not giving up on him, MLB-proven, electric 97mph heat, good secondary pitches)
2. Drabek
3. Chefzynski (love this guy)
4. Romero
5. Marcum
Thats 3 straight lefties there, so Romero and Marcum will probably get swapped.
HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!
Hahaha who??
Chefzynski
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 15, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
are you kidding?
the Jays pitching is nowhere near as good as the red sox.
and we dont have a leadoff hitter, have terrible defense in the OF, and have a starting rotation full of inexperienced players who have yet to really prove themselves.
Beckett + Lester + Lackey + Buckholz + Dice K > whatever the Jays throw together, with or without Halladay.
Onions Baby Onions
These were all issues we could have dealt with this offseason
instead of giving up.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
Lets assume the Jays made a run for 2010
if they brought back Scoot and Doc… and found a couple serviceable guys to play 3B and one OF position, yes they look like a competitive team on paper. Another way to look at it is if you plug in Scott Rolen/Alex Rios into those last 2 spots you get… the 2009 Blue Jays.
by ucantcoachthat on Dec 15, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
And then in 2011....
We are minus Doc, our oldish players are older, we don’t have the young pieces we received for Halladay, and we probably missed the Wild Card by 4 or 5 games again.
Why do we do this to ourselves?
the key word is probably
some of us our tired of this always being ‘next year country’, then next year comes and we say ‘no no we meant the year after’.
I’m more sick of being in third place then I am of being in ‘next year’ mode. At least now it seems like the Jays are trying a new game plan to rely on play development rather then spending with the big boys.
Boston and NY both spend crazy amounts of money but both also have a nicely stocked farm system. The Jays had a terrible farm system and don’t have the ML team to compete with Boston or NY. If the Jays can get their scouting/development in order they will be able to build a winning team from the ground up and then as the team wins there will be money around to spend on signing players long-term or adding a FA here and there to make the team into a true contender year-in year-out.
Huh?
Going forward, we had no realistic option aside from moving Halladay. We could have held on to him but the return would have been negligible in comparison to what we received in this trade.
Calling this trade “giving up” is grossly inaccurate.
Why do we do this to ourselves?
oh well....we've been down this road a bit but ....
there where ideas if the team were to spend a few dollars…if you start with the idea that we scored more runs than allowed and that we used a dozen or so rookie pitchers. Add in that we had a black hole in RF you could make a case that we could have had a better year next year. Add in Red Sox aren’t young and their was a shot.
well
in the perfect world, maybe Cameron finally realize he’s 37, Youkilis comes back down to earth a bit, and Ortiz / Dice-K continues to bomb. plus some more injuries to say.. Drew or some of their pitcher, then mayyyybe .
But of course, there are other teams out there. even in the perfect storm (see 2006) the Jays still only have a marginally better chance.
truthfully, the current setup screws the Jays a ton, unless they change it to something like 2 division 4 wildcard set up the Jay’s chances are always tough.
The only way they contend is if Gathright comes in, proves to be an everyday leadoff hitter and has the year of a lifetime. And even then they’ll need at least 3 competant pitchers that can stop the bleeding every once in awhile.
Otherwise, I think its going to be tough. :P
Well someone better be able to steal a base....
Otherwise its just the carbon copy of a team that was here last year minus Scuturo.
have to get on base to steal a base....
just cause you run fast doesn’t make you a baseball player….
Hmmm
I did include the disclaimer that he would have to have the year of a lifetime, right?
here's to hopin'
I hope your in shape come training camp.
agreed
but in response to the others, i dont think the jays have any intention of contending this year, making this conversation rather pointless. if they had even the slightest notion of that they wouldnt have gotten rid of halladay. not every franchise MUST contend every year, you have to rebuild. the leafs finally admitted exactly that this year after all these years of trying to avoid it. when do you think the last time was that the pirates went into the season saying we’re gonna challenge for the division?
you’re right, and they were probably better off waiting a couple years hoping the Red Sox and Yanks weaken themselves through age and then the Jays will have a small window where they will be able to compete kinda like the Rays did a couple of years ago. That window slammed on the Rays pretty hard last year.
The Rays will be fine
I hope the Jays will be too..
And I don’t ever EXPECT the Sox or the Yanks to drop off anytime soon.
if you think the Red Sox and Yankees are going to sit still and get weaker....
you are in for a long wait……those guys aren’t stupid, they keep refreshing themselves. I’d bet the Sox will be better in two years than they are now.
I have a feeling....
The will get Adrian Gonzalez this offseason…. :(
They will always try to get better...
makes the ’let’s wait till they get crappy’ thing hard to take….the year to beat the sox was last year but we did nothing. Then it’s this year and we’ll decided to pass up the shot.
thats true, but its impossible for every team to be competitive every season
you lose guys and have to play younger ones who take a year to develop and theres always gonna be that interim period between successes. as fans we should be prepared to accept that not every season will be a winning season and that that rebuilding is a necessary step to future success.
…unless you’re the detroit red wings of course who seem to have an unlimited supply of talent at their disposal every year.
…unless you’re the detroit red wings of course who seem to have an unlimited supply of talent at their disposal every year.
It helps a lot, as in pretty much impossible to duplicate the Red Wings model of success, since they had for almost two decades arguably a top-three defenceman of all-time. But I digress.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
its just fascinating
that theyve managed to maintain a consistent state of success over so many years in a way that even the yankees and red sox could marvel at seeing as they have actually build that success from within the organization (for the most part).
Who cares about steals
“The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers.”
Earl Weaver
wait a sec, you're saying...
Marcum, Romero, Rzp, Cecil, Richmond/Tallet or whoever they throw into the 5 slot is better then Beckett, Lackey, Lester, Dice-K and Wakefield not to mention they have Buccholz and Bowden not even in their rotation? Any of Boston’s top 4 would easily be our #1 and any of our 5 starters would be fighting for the 5th spot in that rotation.
As for relief, the Jays may have a deeper ’pen, but any ’pen anchored by Papelbon is going to be pretty darn good.
does anyone know alot about Mike Mccoy?
I know we signed him earlier in the offseason. Has anyone read anything about him as a player and whether there is any chance he’ll make the big league team out of spring training?
is there any way management can influence Cito
with a GM and a new direction for the franchise focused on developing young players, is there any chance that cito will be forced to do…well…the opposite of what he did last year? to actually play some of the guys that the organization wants him to rather than the guys he likes?
I have a big fear that Cito will be more set in his ways to either prove his naysayers wrong or manage his way in an even more extreme manner in spite of the criticisms. Obviously, it’s merely my personal thought, but his recent unnecessary criticisms of Brian Butterfield doesn’t give me much hope.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Basically, Cito in no uncertain terms said on the Fan590 morning show that he felt coaches with no playing experience in the majors (Butterfield is the only one who fits that mold) won’t be successful as a coach.
Well you know, it’s hard for me to say. Butterfield did a good job for us as the bench coach and third base coach, but who knows? There’s a lot of guys don’t play in the big leagues cuz they can’t handle the pressure, just like there’s a lot of guys that can’t manage in the big leagues because they can’t handle the pressure. We’ll have to see what Butterfield is like under pressure.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
great..he really sounded confident in butterfield
honestly, he says some pretty foolish things sometimes. whats butterfield coaching this year? i know we moved everyone around…
He’s the full-time third base coach now.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
well it would be nice to hear some support for his coaches seeing as they’re gonna be the most important guys on the team next year. the success of the team in the long run is banking on a good coaching staff right now. is there any particular reason that management didn’t fire him along with some of the other coaches? unless they really think that he’s the right guy for the job?
Sounds like Beeston’s doing here. It was probably a compromise to have Cito on the bench for one last season so to rebuild his somewhat tainted current reputation and not let Cito take the full brunt of the fall. Respect for a friend, which I can understand, even if I don’t agree at all it’s the right move for the baseball club.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
while i understand the principle
i think exactly the opposite is true. everyone in toronto right now is prepared to blame ricciardi for everything that has happened over the last few years. cito can hardly be blamed for not winning with a club that simply wasn’t good enough to compete, especially with all the injuries to the pitching staff. if they got rid of him along with those other coaches and jp, the organization could have made it seem like they were just cleaning house, starting fresh, placing no blame whatsoeve on cito. but now if he has a rough year this year and he leaves at the end, all of the focus will be on his failures.
Oh I agree completely, but I guess I’m trying to see it from the other side from the personal aspect. Again, it’s not conducive to winning or more importantly, achieving franchise goals when Cito is for all intents and purposes a placeholder who can do a lot of damage for a “building” club.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Another one...
A manager’s job is simple. For one hundred sixty-two games you try not to screw up all that smart stuff your organization did last December.
-Earl Weaver
Arldolis Chapman
Any chance we use some of the money we save on Roy on a future investment? I doubt it, but I’m allowed to dream right?
the winner here are the mariners
they got lee for 3 prospects. he may only be there for 1 yr but then they can get their two picks from it, or better they can keep him.
also i dont get how this is a 3 way trade, the mariners better be giving toronto a prospect as well. cant believe philly is willing to give their ace for 3 cabages but was unwilling to make a trade for the best pitcher for certain prospects. it just seems extremely odd, and i really hope this wallace guy is better than taylor, or ill go nuts. i still need to be convinced cause right now i feel the mariners need to give, cause they are getting too much, while the jays only end up with 3 prospects. (while losing the best pitcher aswell as 6 mil- which aint mine, but still)
The Ms got the best deal
but only by a bit.
The Jays did get 3 VERY good prospects… and everyone knew they had to deal Doc… they werent really in a position of strength.
Onions Baby Onions
Doesn't Matter
We lose in 2010, 2011 and likely 2012. Maybe in 2013 with our core at the end of their use do we contend.
Three years isn't bad..
haha.. we haven’t made the playoffs in how long?
a few issue
1. scouts claimed that Wallace had the better plate discipline of two, but Taylor walked more and whiffed less than Wallace this year.
2. Taylor’s league also didn’t hit as much overall as Wallace’s
3. Taylor is a 5 tool guys with all the skills you want. while he’s not going to be Barry Bonds obviously, there is a reasonable chance that he turns in production like Carlos Lee (with better defense) or Jermaine Dye (with more speed). or basically, Matt Kemp as a corner outfielder (that whiff a bit less)
Sickles started the year by grading Taylor as B vs Wallace as a A- , but Wallace hit only decently for a guy of his pedigree while Taylor continued his 08 breakout in style. hitting an absurd overall line of .320/.395/.505 his BABIP was high but he wasn’t whiffing much either. and he was hitting for legit power. by mid season Sickle was already grading him around A- while you’d figure Wallace’s stock fell a bit this year.
Sure, it’s sort of a challenge trade. but other than the fact that Taylor has diabetes i’d take an large athletic OF over a bad body 1B every time. especially when their recent track record are similar if not leaning toward the former guy.
You wanna tell me the FCK my original post went that led off this blog?
So you delete posts from people you don`t agree with, very sad
The only reason a post would be deleted is if it is offensive or rude.
They don’t delete stuff because people disagree.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Guessing by the title of the post.....
I didn’t see it but if you come close to suggesting someone’s a pedophile, your post will be deleted so quick your head will spin. Saying something that could possibly get the folks that run this site sued, even if you think it’s in jest, will get it pulled.
Comments are deleted here very very rarely, our commenters are great, smart and keep the level of debate at a much higher place than you see in most other blogs, I’m very proud of that.
Posts are deleted: Occasionally for language. Occasionally because they are just stupid. Occasionally because they are spam. Likely most often because they attack another poster. Occasionally on the whim of one of the moderators. But with one of the moderators being a lawyer, they will always be taken down if they suggest someone does something illegal.
We’ve picked up a bunch of new members lately, we’ll put up the house rules again soon. The main rule is: Treat this place like it is our living room, say nothing that you wouldn’t say to me in my living room.
and no racist crap. It is embarrassing to the rest of us.
by aagoodfella on Dec 16, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
true.....
Unless it’s about Italians……
by Tom Dakers on Dec 16, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Also, in future.
If you have a complaint, send us an email. Like umpires we’ll just make a call, generally we won’t explain them. If you think you are embarrassing us or showing us up by posting a complaint, it won’t work. Folks here know we are pretty tolerant, in a year and a half I’ve delete maybe 20 or posts. Most were spam that advertise some other site. I’ve issued 3 or 4 warnings, and I don’t think I’ve banned anyone, except spammers.
I keep trying to get him to ban Craig
but so far, no dice
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
noooooooooooooooooooooooo, who will post pictures of Alysa Milano and occasionally Heidi Watney
by aagoodfella on Dec 16, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Craig is sad :(
If I am going to get banned, please let me know ahead of time so I can go out in a blaze of glory
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 16, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
you two have strange taste
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Post's aren't usually deleted if they are just stupid
I have about 2,000 posts on here and every single thing I’ve ever said was stupid.
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 16, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
From the Drunk Jays...
Wallace was the best pure hitter in this year’s draft, but fell to the Cardinals due to questions about his ultimate position. He’s playing third base right now, and the Cardinals intend to keep him there until he plays himself off it; he has plenty of arm and is fine on balls in front of him, but lacks lateral range … severely. Still, his bat is so special that if he can improve to just a win below average at third, he’ll be a star. He makes hitting look easy — he hits lefties (.387/.479/.484 in 62 at bats last year) and righties, all pitches, all areas of the zone, whatever’s thrown at him — and has pull power to right and doubles power the other way. Sure, his body type is unusual for a pro baseball player — he has enormous thighs, but it’s muscle, not fat, and emphasizing that only detracts attention from what really matters: Brett Wallace will hit.
Wallace’s greatest asset is his approach at the plate. He has very good plate discipline considering his age as it generally takes some time to get everything in synch. But Wallace is the type of hitter who refuses to expand his strike zone and waits pitchers out, forcing them to throw him something he can make solid contact with. Wallace also does a great job in plate coverage thanks to his batting stance which crowds the plate. With his advanced approach, Wallace has the potential to translate his success to the pros and could end up being a perennial on-base machine. I project him a .280-.300 hitter, around .380-.400 OBP and a slugging percentage in the upper .500’s. Then add in his 25-30 homers and 100+ RBI and you have a pretty strong offensive weapon that Albert Pujols will love having hit behind him. With all that said, he is an average defender at third (I view him higher than most) who would be better suited to play first, but with that position locked up, he will do just fine at the hot corner.
From The Hardball Times...
Toronto made out extremely well, netting a high-upside pitcher in Kyle Drabek that they don’t have anywhere in the system. Toronto has solid rotation depth, especially in the major leagues, but no one you can give the ball to on Opening Day and expect to win. Drabek can be that guy.
Travis D’Arnaud has been coveted by Toronto ever since he was selected a pick ahead of the Jays in 2007. The Blue Jays have J.P. Arencibia in their farm system, but there are questions about his ability to stay behind the plate, and D’Arnaud is the better value anyways. Michael Taylor was a Blue Jay for only the briefest of moments, as he was immediately shipped to Oakland for Brett Wallace.
While Taylor might evolve into a 20/20 player and provide good overall value out of the outfield, Wallace is the type of hitter Toronto needs in its next wave of youngsters. Toronto absolutely needs the upside that Wallace brings with the bat and can afford to worry about defense later. Assuming Wallace can’t stick at third (which is not a done deal just yet), he has the options of moving to first or designated hitter, with no one blocking him at either position.
Toronto has put themselves in great position to field a young, competitive club as soon as 2012. That’s all they could have asked for in a trade of Halladay.
What people forgot here in the Wallace-Taylor comparison...
Wallace got around 400 bats in AAA while Taylor made only 110 … so it´s hard to compare their stats over 2009.
In AAA Taylor had only 3 steals… and was batting .282
Wallace was batting .297 in AAA even though OB and SL was little bit under Taylor´s numbers.
I don´t see why Taylor should be ready for the Majors by Opening Day and Wallace shouldn´t…
The other thing is that 2 of the best prospects in the jays farm system are Moises Sierra and Yohermyn Chavez… both OF.
by jaysfanfromeurope on Dec 16, 2009 10:27 AM EST reply actions
With a name like Moises Sierra
That guy is guaranteed to be a star in a few years!
by masterkembo on Dec 16, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
I mentioned this yesterday and think it really bears repeating, so thanks. Wallace is over a year younger, yet played at an overall higher level in 2009. I know there are reasons for Taylor not progressing so quickly, so it’s not a knock against him, but the numbers aren’t strictly comparable.
In reference to the Cameron deal, and others so far this offseason, it seems like the recession is over. Not sure if there’s a 2009 Bobby Abreu deal out there this time around.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Last night on Casinorama Grillroom
they were talking about how good an infield coach was Butterfield and that it was his work with Hill that has enabled his defensive prowess. They said that if anybody could develop Wallace, it would be him.
They were also talking about Lind and how Lind actually played all his high school and college ball at 1B. As such, transitioning Lind from DH to 1B should not be so difficult. Personally, I think that if Lind could so easily transition to first, it should be done if it enables the team to get more bat into the lineup. That said, it would be a defensive trade down as Overbay is still very very good with the glove.
by aagoodfella on Dec 16, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
I like Butterfield
almost as much as I liked Arnsberg. I’m sick of Cito bringing in all his chubby old friends and ruining the nice coaching staff we had in place.
I like the idea of moving Lind to 1B but who do we get to DH? Ruiz? Dopirak? Some old FA schmo with a terrible on-base percentage? The concern about defense is also very legitimate.
People who rag on Lyle will eat some crow when we get a new 1B and more balls than usual are suddenly making it past the bag. It’s definitely a rarity with Overbay there.
Why do we do this to ourselves?
The Question is...
who would play LF if Lind moves to first. As we won´t compete in 2010 an outfield with Lind/Wells/Snider wouldn´t matter anyway!
And in 2011 we know more about EE and Wallace…
Let´s try to trade Overbay and give Wallace a shot at first base, while Lind and Snider/Bautista play outfield and Ruiz DH.
Another aspect is Wallace might be a number 2 hitter as long as he´s great with his bat but still has to develope the power for the 4 or 5 spot. So Hill and Lind could become 3 and 4 in the lineup. Still looking for the man on top…
This is a long shot… and i´m pretty sure AA will work out more trades… but at the moment i would prefere…almost anxious to post:
1) Wells
2) Wallace
3) Hill
4) Lind
5) Ruiz
6) EE
7) Buck
8) Snider
9) Gonzales
Not as bad as i though in a year we don´t want to compete…
Of course Cito will try to get a Millar-type player in the everyday lineup ;)
by jaysfanfromeurope on Dec 16, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
yea, for sure. When Overbay leaves the Jays are going to be eating a lot more 1B errors.
by aagoodfella on Dec 16, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Defense wouln´d be really strong in the corners...
… and we would not steal bases…
For me Overbay is ok at first… but as his contract expires next year and we won´t be better as 4th place… maybe we can get some talent for Overbay. If not it´s a plus for our young arms.
by jaysfanfromeurope on Dec 16, 2009 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
Overbay is fine, but we have too many people who can play first and at a lower price. So, if the Jays can move him, than they should.
by aagoodfella on Dec 16, 2009 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
Personally I’d rather have Lind be the full time DH and have either Ruiz/Dopirak platoon with Overbay, until hopefully one of them can take over permenently. Lind to me looks so uncoordinated with his footwork in the field that its I wonder how he makes any catches at all.
well, he has lots of experience at first so if they could move him there, it just creates more opportunity to put another strong bat in the lineup — but yea, he scares me playing OF, but he may get better. Snider certainly seems to be improving.
by aagoodfella on Dec 17, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
To Be Fair
Virtually any 1B option not named Overbay or Texiara is going to be a step down defensively. Overbay works first like the hot corner, which just blinding reflexes and some of the softest hands I’ve ever seen. His ability to pull balls out of the dirt and get up on errant throws while pinned to the bag has been making the rest of our infield look better for years now. In my opinion, he’s one of the best defensive firstbasemen since Keith Hernandez.
I have no problem with Overbay either. The thing that bugged me is that I heard early on about Lyle complaining about the fact he was platooning with Millar. Sorry Lyle, your bat ain’t good enough to be an everyday 1B. The minute Snider can move up in the order and Overbay can move down in the order the team will be better off for it. That being said Overbay’s glove at 1B is a big contributor to why the infielders error totals are low.
OverBay’s stats are interesting. For his career, he has averaged 265 versus lefties and 284 versus righties, seemingly quite balanced. But if you look at his trend, he has been quite consistent in his performance vs. righties (although 2007 was a bad, arguable anomalous year). In contrast, vs. lefties, he seems to be showing a strong downward trend.
Year::vsLft::vsRgt
2004::298::301
2005::269::278
2006::284::322
2007::287::224
2008::215::291
2009::190::282
career::265::284
Source: Yahoo Sports
by aagoodfella on Dec 17, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't just look at average, too variable, but I wholly agree he can't hit lefties anymore
it makes sense. His bat speed has slowed a tad as he has aged, and so it is tougher to get around on lefties, who take a split second longer to recognize for a lefty hitter.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
IT'S WEDNESDAY
WHERE THE HELL IS MY UPDATE?!?!?!!?
CAPSLOOOOOOOCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 16, 2009 10:57 AM EST reply actions
any news on when the press coference will happen?
and if it’s going to happen?
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