Bluebird Banter: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: The Pros and Cons of an 18-game NFL Schedule

News on Injured Pitchers

Jordan Bastian shared a few comments from Alex Anthopoulos about some of our injured pitchers on twitter:

  • Shawn Marcum is healthy, ready to go and might be cleared to take a full workload next season.
  • Jesse Litsch will be out till July.
  • They are unsure about Dustin McGowan, he was shut down in October.
  • The Jays are looking to pick someone up in the Rule 5 Draft. They have 11th pick. The 40-man roster is full so someone would have to be dropped if they were to pick someone up.

The Rule 5 draft takes place during the Winter Meetings, which start next week. The Jays picked up Willie Upshaw, George Bell and Kelly Gruber that way, so it is possible to find talent in the draft, but it doesn't happen often.

Great news about Marcum. Personally I'd be surprised if Litsch is back to the Jays till nearer the end of the season. 

0 recs  |  Comment 29 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

So I have the Jays at about $70m with two holes to fill

going into next season. If we trade Doc, that becomes $55m. Anyone want to bet that our payroll next year is $60m or below?

I’m just not getting the sense that we’re going to do anything in the way of substantial additions here (Harden, Cameron, Ankiel, etc.)

by ayjackson on Dec 2, 2009 6:25 PM EST reply actions  

why would the jays sign a guy like cameron or ankiel?

they are old and really wont help the team at all… seeing as with or without them we arent contending for at least a year.

Onions Baby Onions

by ohmybosh on Dec 2, 2009 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

to keep their payroll above Floridas?

who would you have them sign? they have to field a team. Nobody wants a 60 win team.

by ayjackson on Dec 2, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep

I will never understand that “Why sign a guy like Cameron?” argument. I’m not saying that Cameron will bring the team from 75 wins to 90 wins, but there is value in improving the team over the short-term, whether or not it leads to the playoffs. Each game is meaningless and meaningful in its own way, so anything that will help the team win more games without breaking the bank is good. Do you plan to watch games in 2010? Because, if so, wouldn’t you rather watch a team that has a better chance to win them?

Cameron is a good player, he isn’t a Kevin Mench-type. He has a solid bat and is still an above-average hitter. As long as the deal doesn’t hamstring the Jays long-term, I think it is a good move.

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Dec 2, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

it's a corporate-owned team

And signing Cameron doesn’t make sense from a corporate risk management perspective.

Cameron might be the difference between 65 and 68 wins (as an example). Rogers knows that’s not enough to make a significant difference in attendance, on its own. So whatever he costs is unlikely to be recoverable. There is a threshold at which revenues will rise significantly (probably 85+ wins, with another jump at 90+) but that kind of figure is probably impossible for this incarnation of the Jays—certainly not without overpaying every free agent out there. There is probably also a floor, below which revenues will drop even further (below 60 wins, I would expect) and Rogers will invest what’s required to stay out of that hole too. I’m sure they already have Excel tools to forecast this sort of thing.

Payroll will be down more than 25% YoY from 2009. Rogers will be seeing if revenues drop 25% (or, more accurately, enough to nullify the drop in expenses, since payroll isn’t the only expense) as well; I think it’s unlikely, particularly if they do a good job of selling the “build” to Joe Sixpack. If not, then what you and I (as baseball fans) perceive as a debacle is actually a great move from a perspective of managing risk and building shareholder value, which is all Rogers cares about.

Somebody made the point a few months ago that the Leafs are in the same situation and that’s why they don’t win. If you came up with a scenario that guaranteed a Stanley Cup but meant the pension plan dividend would drop a few points, it would be voted down unanimously.

This is why corporate ownership of sports teams doesn’t work. Even if Tony Viner or Nadir Mohamed were baseball fans (which they clearly aren’t), their salaries, bonuses, and continued employment rest upon driving share prices up and creating big dividends. This is done not by “going for it” (with any of the divisions including Rogers Baseball Operations), but by balancing revenue and expenditure. If they could fill the dome to capacity on a $25M payroll you can bet they wouldn’t invest a cent more. If they could guarantee a 100-win team but the increased payroll meant net revenues would decline, they would never sign on. And since even with the best players you can’t guarantee anything in baseball (players get injured, or fall off a cliff like VW, the playoffs are often a coin toss), anytime you want to sign a free agent, extend a guy, make a trade that increases payroll, it’s almost always going to come out as “too risky” if you’re coming at it from a corporate perspective. The extra expense is guaranteed, but the extra win(s) aren’t, and the extra revenues that may or may not stem from those wins certainly aren’t.

I’m hoping Rogers will eventually get as disenchanted with this whole scheme as I am and sell to a group that isn’t beholden to any shareholders. But as long as they’re making money (and with the way they own everything we’ll never really know how much, but if they’re not looking to sell it means they’re doing all right) it’s unlikely to happen anytime soon.

by voodoomusic on Dec 2, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

You missed my point

I wasn’t talking about whether or not Rogers would do it, but explaining why there is value in increasing from 76 wins to 80 wins.

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Dec 2, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

That would have been me
Payroll will be down more than 25% YoY from 2009. Rogers will be seeing if revenues drop 25% (or, more accurately, enough to nullify the drop in expenses, since payroll isn’t the only expense) as well; I think it’s unlikely, particularly if they do a good job of selling the "build" to Joe Sixpack. If not, then what you and I (as baseball fans) perceive as a debacle is actually a great move from a perspective of managing risk and building shareholder value, which is all Rogers cares about.

Couple of things there. If revenue is down 25% next year, Rogers is worrying a lot more about that than the payroll. You have to look at it as a synergistic package; the ownership of the Toronto Blue Jays has about five key points of revenue for Rogers; gate receipts, merchandizing, value added marketing, media sales and finally, television access/advertising. Guess which one is far and away the largest and most valuable? If you choose television, you would be correct.

So yes, ultimately, shareholder value and risk management are key elements, but unlike other corporate owners, as a media entity, the success of the Jays has an impact across their major business lines, due to that synergistic involvement. So in that context, it actually makes more sense to add money into payroll, because any success multiplies across two, three, four different channels in terms of revenue back to Rogers.

Somebody made the point a few months ago that the Leafs are in the same situation and that’s why they don’t win. If you came up with a scenario that guaranteed a Stanley Cup but meant the pension plan dividend would drop a few points, it would be voted down unanimously.

Very true, but there are some fundamental differences between the Jays and ownership by Rogers, and the Leafs and ownership by the Teachers Pension Plan. First of all, the Leafs were purchased strictly as an investment to maintain a stable ROI. The fan bases are different, and the gate is hugely more significant a revenue stream than television to the owners, who gain the broadcast fees, but receive no benefit whether or not ratings change. The Leafs fanbase is also much older, deeper, and more regional than the Jays, which is why they still sell out most games in the city, despite no customer service, inflated prices and a terrible product on ice. The other thing is because of the importance of the gate, the Leafs don’t have a lot of market growth remaining; there simply aren’t many other ways for MLSE to generate revenue left, so any extra expense is coming out of the existing return, as opposed to growing it.

The Jays are different. You have a transnational base to potentially tap, a much smaller and more fickle fanbase, and a vastly different scope in terms of industry and sports culture. So for the Jays to drop to $25m and decide to sit at the bottom of the league; the diminishing returns across the entire set of business channels would far far outstrip any savings in payroll. In short, the risk and magnification of loss is greater for the team to cut payroll than it is to expand it. If they could fill the Dome night after night with a $25mil team would they? Of course, but they can’t. You can’t sell 50K here nightly tanking for five years.

What we’re seeing right now makes a lot of sense. Anthopoulos has gone in to sell an idea of sustainability. Rogers approach with the team from the start is to make it national and provide an all over approach to it as a business line. While attendance dropped, televsion ratings barely declined, and in some cases, increased last year. That’s why Rogers isn’t acting like Interbrew and culling the payroll. I also don’t think Rogers is leading the decisions on the payroll. The media has been pretty consistant about saying they’ll support Beeston and Anthopoulos’ requirements. But I would say that they’ve likely been pretty open on the baseball side about tracking the overall value across the business lines of the Jays, and looking to say that the greater the investment, the sooner it shows in the return, and AA isn’t about to make his move until he’s sure he’s got a solid idea how to make that happen via success on the field.

I think any FA signings are going to be in February, and while they won’t be major, the Jays will add a few pieces to maintain that outside shot at the lowest cost possible, and see what shakes down in 2010.

by dexfarkin on Dec 2, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

It's one of those world views I don't understand.

Some keep saying the team will be lousy and have so much invested in the team being lousy that they don’t want the team to do anything to improve. Personally I think the team owes it to it’s fans to put out the most competitive team possible. Signing Cameron for a season doesn’t cost the mythical future good Jays team anything, but losing 100 games will cost us in the future. Chase fans away hard enough and it will be hard to get them.

by Tom Dakers on Dec 2, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

uhhh what fans? and how does losing a 100 games cost us in the future? we almost lost 90 this year, and without that hot start we would have probably lost 100.

Also the fans wont come back in droves cuz you sign Cameron. He wont put anymore butts in the seats then they are getting now.

Your right that it wouldn’t hurt us (for this year), but the damage with the fan base is already been done the last 10 years not just this past one. It’s going to take alot more then signing an old, above average player to get fans back. IMO

by syc on Dec 3, 2009 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Cameron won’t get the fans back, but he might help stop the bleeding, at least a little. He’d help them win games by virtue of the massive defensive improvement alone that would be gained by moving Wells to RF and having Cameron in CF.

by Jevant on Dec 3, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Also from the Rule 5 draft

Johan Santana, Josh Hamilton, Shane Victorino, Dan Uggla and the great Roberto Clemente.

by Belligerent Burkie on Dec 2, 2009 7:17 PM EST reply actions  

I am surprised about Litsch, he did not look that serious. These guys are really fragile.

by aagoodfella on Dec 2, 2009 10:09 PM EST reply actions  

Litsch's surgery was in June/July I think

So a July return isn’t bad. It didn’t sound like there were any setbacks, just a desire not to rush them.

by ayjackson on Dec 2, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Tommy John surgery is hugely serious.

they used to say it took a year and a half to recover. Rushing him back wouldn’t be smart.

by Tom Dakers on Dec 2, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

it's curious that AA said today....

that they are looking to bolster the bullpen. to what end? they have more bodies than spots right now. i can’t believe they’re looking for a closer.

by ayjackson on Dec 2, 2009 10:31 PM EST reply actions  

I do not think the Jays have a serious closer. Downs and Frasor are good, but they are not shut down guys, IMHO.

by aagoodfella on Dec 2, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

that's beside the point

are they going out to sign a Soriano or Gonzalez to a $30m contract? obviously not, so why look to “bolster the ’pen”? We have a lot of guys Roenicke, League, Accardo, McGowan who are potential closers too, so why would they be looking at this type of acquisition. Unless they’re specifically talking about a Bard or a Lindholm?

by ayjackson on Dec 3, 2009 7:27 AM EST up reply actions  

McGowan

…needs to be moved to the pen. It is the only way I see him ever being healthy.

by Jevant on Dec 2, 2009 11:28 PM EST reply actions  

ive always envisioned McGowan despite his arm endurance and strength as a way more effective reliever or closer. he has the potential to be a shut down closer with his stuff, and he’s hitting the occasional 98 on the gun as a starter imagine what he could reach in a more limited role.

by deg on Dec 3, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

As my memory serves...

…he’s also been quite a bit better the first time through the order.

I have no stats (nor time) to back that up, so if someone wants to prove me wrong, feel free.

by Jevant on Dec 3, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

numbers don't really back that up

McGowan career, 1st time through Order: .255 / .323 / .376
                                2nd time through Order: .258 / .357 / .373
                                 3rd time through Order: .254 / .316 / .422

                       2007, 1st time through Order: .233 / .291 / .339
                                 2nd time through Order: .227 / .322 / .333
                                  3rd time through Order: .228 / .274 / .371

                       2008, 1st time through Order: .263 / .310 / .378
                                 2nd time through Order: .303 / .359 / .421
                                  3rd time through Order: .248 / .336 / .416

You could possibly make the argument that what you said is true for 2008, but it could be random variation and it could also be that the same thing happens with all pitchers. On the other hand, when a pitcher is throwing badly, he might not get through the lineup all three times (but that could actually weaken the argument, because if he doesn’t get through the whole lineup, you’re essentially selecting for the best hitters).

For comparison’s sake, Doc is about 60 points of OPS worse (30 OBP, 30 SLG) against hitters the third time through the lineup than his first two. Shaun Marcum is about 75 points worse. Last year, Ricky Romero was about 70 points worse.

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Dec 3, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

it actually significantly weakens the argument because if you consider any bad start [which McGowan was prone too] then it would inflate his numbers during his first and second time through the lineup and would not do so his third time around because he wouldnt even get to that point. the fact that his numbers are equal merely indicates that he has excellent endurance and is a strong finisher.
interesting splits it seems that McGowan was supremely better during 07 than 08

by deg on Dec 3, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I mentioned that before I said it would also weaken it

But the fact that he is more likely to face a team’s best hitters two and three times through the lineup than their worst hitters still stands.

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Dec 3, 2009 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Harden and Bedard

Call me Canadian, but Harden and Bedard could seem like viable options to help out in the rotation so they can give the young pitchers some proper development in AAA (Cecil and Zep). I am not sure what type of contracts they are looking for, but I doubt it is anything longterm given their health.

It is an interesting option for they Jays as they wouldn’t lose any draft picks

by Joey P on Dec 3, 2009 6:17 AM EST reply actions  

I'd throw a $5 million 1 year deal at Harden, maybe something with incentives for Bedard

Of course, this team looks like they’re going to be too cheap to do that.

And if Billy Wagner is worth $7 million, I’m guessing Harden and Bedard will do better than that.

by Jevant on Dec 3, 2009 8:34 AM EST up reply actions  

i'd try an get him with a long term deal

tempt him with 4 years and $28m. He could be tempted to take it given his injury woes. It could turn out to be a huge bargain. With a $4m buyout in year 4 it’d be at worst a $24m write-off. That’s nothing for the Blue Jays.

by ayjackson on Dec 3, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about our heroic azure-tinged corvidae, the Toronto Blue Jays.
Start posting about the Blue Jays »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Hiro_small
We Don't Need Compelling Evidence that Jose Bautista is Not on Steroids
Aj_11_small
Some Pics and Thoughts from the Jays/Yanks game - Aug 23, 2010
Royconrad_fullthrottle_small
25 for 25: Blue Jays

Recent FanPosts

Small
Aaron Hill's Extension
Iggy_small
Overbay having concussion like symptoms
Small
Manny Being Manny... In Toronto
Kittinger-jump_small
How Tony Fernandez Saved My Life...
Small
September rotation?
Rance_small
Brian TalLet's Give Up Runs Every Time I Pitch
Rance_small
Encarnacion
Small
Catcher Statistics
Colevatar_small
Thank You, Jays Fans
Small
Best/Worst trades in Blue Jays history

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SBNation.com Recent Stories

Colorado Rockies' Carlos Gonzalez, left, and Ubaldo Jimenez, right, celebrate in the dugout after Gonzalez hits his second home run of the game in the sixth inning of a baseball game against the San Francisco Giants at Coors Field in Denver on Wednesday, Aug. 4, 2010. The Rockies won 6-1. (AP Photo/Chris Schneider)

Five Numbers: Carlos Gonzalez's Home Dominance, Baseball's Wave Of Flamethrowers, And More

Philadelphia Phillies' Chase Utley, right, celebrates his grand slam against the Colorado Rockies with teammates, from left, Ben Francisco, Jimmy Rollins and Brian Schneider in the seventh inning of a baseball game in Denver on Thursday, Sept. 2, 2010. The Phillies won 12-11. (AP Photo/Barry Gutierrez)

Phillies Post Nine-Run Seventh Inning, Hold On In Narrow Defeat Of Rockies

Detroit Tigers' Don Kelly (32) is congratulated in the Tigers' dugout after hitting a solo home run off Minnesota Twins pitcher Scott Baker during the first inning of a baseball game Thursday, Sept. 2, 2010, in Minneapolis. (AP Photo/Tom Olmscheid)

Tigers, Twins Blow Series Of Opportunities, Gerald Laird Wins It In 13th

More from SBNation.com >


Managers

Bluejayperched_small hugo

Rincewind-1_small Tom Dakers

Authors

Hiro_small jessef

Basher-av_small JohnnyG