Top 50 All-Time Jays: #2 Dave Stieb

by Tom Dakers on Dec 23, 2009 12:00 PM EST

David Andrew Stieb | SP | 1979-1992, 1998

Notable Accomplishments: All-Star 1980, 1981, 1983-1985, 1988, 1990

Dave Stieb was born on July 22, 1957, in Santa Ana, California. He was picked by the Jays in the 5th round of the 1978 draft out of Southern Illinois University. That was just our second year as part of the draft, in the first round, in the first round, with the second pick overall we picked up Lloyd Moseby. They were the only two we picked in that year's draft that made any impact in the majors. Of course in our first draft we only got one guy who helped the team; Jesse Barfield, a 9th round pick (well there was Danny Ainge in the 15th round).

At University he was a center fielder and only occasional emergency pitcher. His first year in the minors he did play some outfield but he didn't hit and the Jays quickly made him a full time pitcher. He was, very occasionally, a pinch runner for the Jays and played a couple of innings in LF one year.

Stieb wasn't in the minors for very long, he was called up to the Jays at the end of June in 1979, only about a year after he was drafted, he was in our starting rotation for the rest of the season. He finished the season 8-8 with a 4.31 ERA in 18 starts, 7 of which he completed. His strikeout rate wasn't very good, just 52 K in 129.1 innings.
In 1980 Stieb was in the rotation for the full season, going 12-15 with a 3.71 ERA in 32 starts. He completed 14 games and threw 242.2 innings. Again his strikeout rate was low, only striking out 108, but his home run rate was very good, he allowed 0.4 homers per 9 innings. 12-15 might not sound like a great record, but we were a lousy team back then, winning only 67 games. He made the All-Star team for the first time.

In the strike shortened 1981 season, Stieb had his first winning record, going 11-10 in 25 starts, 11 complete games and a 3.19 ERA and he made the All-Star team for the second straight year.

In 1982 Stieb came into his own with a 17-14 record (for a team that only won 78 games)in 38 starts, 19 of them were complete games, leading the league. He also led in innings pitched at 288.1. He still didn't strikeout many, just 141 but also didn't walk many, just 75. He came in 4th in the Cy Young voting.

The next 3 years Dave continued to be terrific going 17-12 with a 3.04 ERA in 1983, 16-8 with a 2.83 ERA in 1984 and 14-13 with a league leading 2.48 ERA in 1985. In those years he completed 33 games and pitched 810 innings. He was an All-Star all 3 years and finished 7th in the Cy Young voting in 84 and 85. In 1985 the Jays made the playoffs for the first time. He was 1-1 with a 3.10 ERA in three starts in our 7 game lose to the Royals.

Stieb had his first poor season in 1986, likely a reaction to all the innings he had pitched in the few years leading up until then. He had a 7-12 record and a 4.74 ERA and a save in 34 starts and 3 relief appearances. For a poor season it wasn't all that bad. He bounced back some in 1987, going 13-9 with a 4.09 ERA.

1988 was a bounce back year for Stieb, he went 16-8 with a 3.04 ERA in 31 starts, 8 of them complete games and he made the All-Star team again. He had a similar season in 1989, winning 17 and losing 8 with a 3.35 ERA. But he didn't fare so well in the playoffs, losing his 2 starts in a 5 game ALCS loss to the A's.

Dave's last good season was 1990, he went 18-6 with a 2.93 ERA. He made the All-Star team and came in 5th in the Cy Young voting. But the big moment for him was September 2, when he finally got his no-hitter, the first no-hitter in Jay's history (well we were no-hit 3 times). Up until then Stieb had been snake bit in no-hit attempts. Three times he took a no-hitter into the 9th and lost it with just one out left, 2 of them in consecutive starts in 1988, then in 1989 he lost a perfect game with 2 outs in the ninth.

Stieb had back and shoulder problems in 1991 that ended his effective pitching. He made it to 4-3 with a 3.17 ERA in 9 starts before the injuries ended his season. In 1992 he made 14 starts and 7 relief appearances but didn't do well: 4-6 with a 5.04 ERA. That was the year we won our first World Series. Even though Dave didn't have a good year it's great that he got a ring with us, after suffering through the lousy years. After the season he signed with the White Sox but the injuries didn't allow him to perform.

After being away from baseball for 4 seasons, Stieb attempted a comeback with the Jays in 1998. The plan was to make him closer and he did get 2 saves in 19 relief appearances, he also made 3 starts. He finished with a not so terrible 4.83 ERA but retired for good after that year.

Stieb wasn't exactly a nice fellow on the mound. If a teammate made an error behind him he would glare at them. He didn't exactly endear himself to his teammates. He led the league in hit batters 5 different times. He wasn't a very modest player, he'd be happy to tell you how good he was, but then he could back it up. He would talk, loudly, to himself on the mound. The nice way to say it is that he was a perfectionist. Many great pitchers were.

Not a big guy, listed as 6' and 195 pounds, Stieb threw a slider, a sinking fastball, a high fastball, a curve and a changeup. He wasn't overpowering but would throw any of his pitches for strikes. He was athletic, a good fielder and was great at holding runners. A ground ball pitcher. For a few years Stieb and Jim Clancy battled it out for the franchise lead in Wins.

Dave Stieb is listed as the best pitcher in Jay history in Rob Neyer's Big Book of Baseball Lineups; of course the book came out before Roy Hallday become great. Bill James listed him as the 74th best pitcher of all-time in his "New Baseball Abstract". Only Jack Morris won more games in the 70's. He is on our "Level of Excellence" at Rogers Center and is a member of the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame.

Dave had an autobiography called "Tomorrow I'll Be Perfect", a copy of which is somewhere around this house, and he is immortalized in Hugo's song "Skydome".

He is married and has 3 children.

Dave Stieb's place among Jay pitching leaders:

ERA: 3rd (>500 innings) 3.418 (best among Jay starters)
Wins: 1st 175 (Halladay is 2nd with 148)
Hits per 9 innings: 3rd (1st among starters)
Walks per 9 innings: 10th
Games: 3rd 439
Innings Pitched: 1st 2873 (Jim Clancy is 2nd with 2204)
Strikeouts: 1st 1658 (Halladay is 2nd with 1495)
Starts: 1st 408 (Clancy is 2nd with 345)
Complete Games: 1st 103 (Clancy is 2nd with 73)
Shutouts: 1st 30 (Halladay is 2nd with 15)
Home Runs per 9 innings: 2nd 0.702
Hit batters: 1st 129 (Halladay is 2nd with 56)

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Comments

My favourite Stieb moment was 1998

When he was in his hay-day, I watched him, but I was too young to appreciate what he was doing.
I remember 1998 when he attempted his comeback. If I remember correctly, he came in to throw batting practice and work with the pitchers in spring training, and realized he still had some juice left in his arm. I loved when he came into games in 98.

Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.

by craig in calgary on Dec 23, 2009 12:12 PM EST reply actions

Dave Stieb

I believe I saw Dave Stieb pitch this game. 7.2 innings pitched and no ERA. Sitting behind the Jays dug out, I joined in the standing ovation as Dave left the game. Well-deserved for sure.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=199006200TOR

I was also at an Ottawa comedy club one night (Yuk Yuk’s maybe) when Dave Stieb was quietly in the audience, not noticed until the emcee called him out, to which the audience responded with another nice round of applause. We could sure use more guys like Stieb. Halladay and Stieb have both left enviable records for some of Jay’s pitching prospects to aspire.

by aagoodfella on Dec 23, 2009 3:22 PM EST reply actions

Stieb rules...

For a lot of years the Jays were a pretty icky team when Dave was quietly pitching his heart out. A real intense competitor whos slider was other worldly. I can’t remember how many times he had one hitters – hence his book, “Some Day I’ll be Perfect.” When he was “perfect” it was long overdue.

Dave Stieb – my all time number one Jay.

by Mylegacy on Dec 24, 2009 12:07 AM EST reply actions

looking at the numbers, I could be swayed to your way of thinking

by aagoodfella on Dec 24, 2009 9:17 AM EST up reply actions

back to back one hitters in1988

If I remember right the first one was in Cleveland and with two outs in the 9th the Cleveland batter hit a ground ball to Tony Fernandez and right before Fernandez fielded the ball it hit a small rock and squirted into left field. The next start was in Toronto against Baltimore. He went 8 and 2/3 no hit ball when he faced Jim Traber who hit a cheap broken bat single into right between the first baseman, second baseman, and right fielder. He was very close to being Johnny Vander Meer.

by goodbye JP on Dec 24, 2009 10:56 PM EST reply actions

Stieb over Halladay?

It’s always tough to compare players from different eras, so you try to make relative value judgements…

Since the season Doc won his Cy, he’s easily been one of the top 5 pitchers in MLB every season since (not strictly from a stats perspective d/t a broken shin, but from a “who do I want on the mound on a given day” perspective). I’m not sure Stieb was as great relative to his peers for as long a period as Doc.

Also, people are talking about Doc being potentially hall-of-fame worthy. Stieb was an excellent pitcher, but most definitely did not garner serious hall-talk.

by TenaciousDirk on Dec 24, 2009 11:55 PM EST reply actions

yea, Halladay is peaking at a very high level .. Phillies are lucky to get him now

by aagoodfella on Dec 25, 2009 8:22 AM EST up reply actions

When Stieb was mid career people talked about him as having a shot at the hall...

but then his arm gave up on him at 33, which isn’t all that surprising considering he had thrown 2800+ major league innings by that point. Halladay’s nearing that age and has thrown about 900 less innnings. Stieb was one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball at his prime, he won more games than anyone in baseball in the 70’s except for Jack Morris. He was a terrific pitcher. Doc might be a better pitcher at the moment, but tough to give him a spot over Stieb when he is 30 wins and 50 complete games short of Stieb.

by Tom Dakers on Dec 25, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions

I see your point but...

I don’t think comparing certain stats between players from different eras is a reliable way of determining who’s greater. In the 80’s there were many pitchers with double figure CG numbers — now, not so much, which makes Doc’s achievements stand out all the more.

Anyway, this is your list, so it is what it is, but my list would def’ly put Doc as the #1 greatest Jay we’ve had. For me the bottom line is that Doc’s prime has been better and longer than Stieb’s relative to other MLB pitchers during their respective careers.

One quick parting thought: Much is justifiably made of Doc’s ability to put up his great numbers, even while he pitches in the AL East — hands-down the best hitting division in baseball. (Ie. Lee last year, and Greinke this year pitched against much poorer opposition.) I’d be interested in seeing quality of opposition numbers (is there even such a stat?) for Stieb’s career.

by TenaciousDirk on Dec 25, 2009 7:36 PM EST up reply actions

For what it's worth

Dave Stieb has actually been inducted in Baseball Think Factory’s “”http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/" >Hall of Merit" which is sort of analogous to the Hall of Fame. According to baseballprojection, he’s got at least a borderline case as #67 in all-time WAR. Barring an unfortunate collapse, when all’s said and done, Halladay’s career will almost certainly be better, but it’s hard to make the case that he was absolutely a better Jay. Perhaps he was, but Stieb’s case can be easily argued, as well.

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Dec 26, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions

as you said, though, comparing Doc's complete games to Stieb's should be done with caution

Stieb led the league in complete games once, Doc’s done it five times (including the last three years running).

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Dec 26, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions

Well if his prime has been longer....

Why doesn’t he have more wins? Stieb pitched for an awful Jays team for a good part of his career. I don’t have the internet speed to check, but Stieb was 2nd in the AL in wins in the 70’s….where did Doc end up on the list for the oughts? Is a close one. I figured the extra innings and wins were worth something and Dave is at the top of the Jays career list in most things.

by Tom Dakers on Dec 26, 2009 10:14 PM EST up reply actions

Stieb's Jays were better than Halladay's

In the meat of Stieb’s career as a Jay (1980-1990), the Jays were a combined 903W / 822L (.523), which is pretty good.

In the meat of Halladay’s career as a Jay (2002-2009), the Jays were a combined 642W / 653L (.496), which is not quite good.

Why did Stieb have more wins? Because he had more starts.
Stieb: 408 starts, 175 wins
Halladay: 287 starts, 148 wins

What’s interesting here is the conversion rate of starts to wins — Stieb: 43% of his starts were wins, and Halladay: 52% of his starts were wins.

by TenaciousDirk on Dec 27, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions

Most wins in a decade...

isn’t really a meaningful stat. Basically all it means is that Stieb had the second-most wins for pitchers whose careers spanned the exact same years his did. There were HOF pitchers who pitched before and after Stieb that had only pitched six or seven years in the 80s, so of course they’re not going to have more wins. That argument shouldn’t have any bearing on greatness.

of Cy Young award shares would be much more meaningful — Halladay’s got Stieb beat handily there as well.

Sure, Stieb’s got better career numbers, but that’s only because he hung around longer. Do a year-to-year and era-to-era comparison, and Doc’s hands-down the greater Jays pitcher.

by TenaciousDirk on Dec 27, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions