John Sickels' Top 20 Jays Prospects Released
Bluebird Banter's SB Nation sister-site Minor League Ball, the very fine work of the incredible John Sickels, released itsTop 20 Blue Jays Prospects last week.
Sickels gives out very few A or even A- grades (though the Jays have had a few in the past few years) and no Jays merited either honour this year. Brett Wallace (we took a long look at Wallace here), Zach Stewart (profiled by your friendly hosts here), and Kyle Drabek (profiled here) head the list (1-3, respectively) with B+ marks, with Wallace claiming top honours. Sickels actually prefers Zach Stewart's stuff to Drabek's, saying that Stewart could be either a fine number 2 starter or closer and that Drabek profiles as a number two or number three starter "assuming he keeps his head on straight."
Travis D'Arnaud takes 4th place and is the only B (Sickels calls him a "borderline B-"), meaning that all 4 of his Jays' top 4 prospects are products of either the Scott Rolen on Roy Halladay trades over the past few months. 2009 Draftee Chad Jenkins rounds out the top 5 with a B- (borderline B), meaning none of the Jays top 5 prospects were in the Jays organization at all before the June 2009 draft. If you were looking on the bright side, you'd say this was very impressive work by the Jays management to so quickly improve -- if you were more pessimistic, you'd focus on how barren the system was, and how glaring the Jays' failure to sign more of its 2009 draftees was.
Other notable choices:
8) Henderson Alvarez, RHP, Grade C+: Projectable and young with excellent command.
11) Jake Marisnick, OF, Grade C+: Very toolsy, but need pro data to see how raw he is or is not before ranking higher.
12) Eric Thames, OF, Grade C+: I like this bat a lot, but he needs to stay healthy, apparently a big "if" for him.
17) J.P. Arencibia, C, Grade C: Baseball America likes him a lot more than this, but both personal observation and his performance in Vegas make me very skeptical at this point. Power is there, but his approach to hitting is terrible. I see him as a reserve catcher.
Bluebird Banter commenter favourite Brian Dopirak didn't make the top 20 but was one of the first other "C" grade prospects mentioned. Jays outfielder Moses Sierra was also in the additional "C" prospects list. In summary, Sickels writes, and it's hard to argue:
The Blue Jays system was thin, and greatly benefits by the recent addition of Wallace, Drabek, and d'Arnaud this month. Stewart and Roenicke were acquired in trades this summer.
The Jays under former general manager J.P. Ricciardi took a lot of flak for focusing in polished college players in the draft. However, even when they brought in tools players, such as the high school hitters drafted in 2007 and various Latin American investments, the results were poor, leading me to wonder if the problems are as much in player development and coaching as much as in the drafting. The debacle of the 2009 draft is a huge blow: failing to sign the second, third, and fourth round picks speaks to serious problems with the Jays organization as a whole and hampers depth at the lower levels of the system for '10 and beyond.
In any event, the trades of the last six months help, and even beyond that the system is not completely barren, particularly with pitching. There are the makings of a good bullpen in the system, and if the top group of pitching comes close to meeting expectations, the future rotation looks solid. The hitting looks thin.
The inclusion of Thames and Marsinick helps the outfield somewhat, particularly with young hitters Adam Lind and Travis Snider manning outfield positions for the moment, but that's still a thin area. The infield is even worse, particularly the left side - Wallace looks good and Cooper managed a B- despite a mediocre season at AA, and there are a couple of okay looking second-basemen in the system, but there are no prospects better than "C" grade for the left side of the infield, and even the "C" guys are fading at this point.
The pitching looks solid and the truth is I'm not worried so much about pitching depth in the minors because the Jays rotation is so young and includes so many pitching prospects promoted from the system in the past few seasons. The Jays do an excellent job of developing and breaking in young pitchers (now keeping them healthy is another story).
We'd love to hear in the comments about your take on Sickels' ratings, who he is overrating or overlooking, and on the Jays' system in general.
38 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
What is Zack Stewart's story?
I don’t hear alot about him on here, but he is better prospect than everyone’s mancrush Drabek?
How far away is he?
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 28, 2009 12:25 PM EST reply actions
the pitcher acquired in the Rolen trade
We took a long look at him here. Something of a right-handed Brett Cecil, he gets grounders and Ks, was a reliever in college, and it’s not totally clear whether his future is in the rotation or the bullpen. He started last season in the AA rotation but moved to the bullpen (and stayed there after we acquired him) to keep his innings down. I doubt he’ll throw more than 140 innings this season. Good control of his fastball, keeps the ball down, needs more work on his secondary pitches.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I see he is "already" 23
So would he be projected to start the season in AAA?
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 28, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
right
he turned 23 on September 28, 2009, so next season will be his age 23 season. Yes, he is likely to start in the AAA rotation and work on his secondary pitches. He did well in about 25 innings of AAA in 2009, but out of the bullpen.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Well
I think he is overrating Cooper. The guy has no power. But since it was his first full year of proball ill give him a break, but this upcoming year is huge for him.
Also im very excited about Marisnick, i hope he develops well for some reason i hope we can look back on the 09 disaster draft and say we got a gem in him.
Alverez looks good, he’s young and no need to rush him. I think he’ll eventually end up in the Majors
Since we got rid of Chavez (i really loved his bat) i hope Sierra finds is power stroke because he has a great arm, and plays good defence. Im optomistic that he can be our RF of the future.
I doubt the Jays will let a lot of draft prospects get away this year
after last years debacle.
Onions Baby Onions
Sickels
Moises Sierra not being in there has got to be a major omission. And the inclusion of Marinsnick considering at draft time it was split on his ability to hit has got to be a major issue as well. See this is what I don’t get with Sickels. Marinsnick has no pro data and yet he’s in there ahead of someone like Gustavo Pierre who has similar tools to Marinsick, is younger and had a decent showing at Rookie Ball, where Marinsick will likely start his pro career, a couple years older than Pierre. To me Sickels has only really scraped the surface of the Jays system. He is right about player development, but that really goes beyond coaching. Everything from the way the players ate to how they prepared in the offseason seemed to be off in the past. I think AA knows this and has said publicly he will focus more on these issues. Furthermore, our Double-A and Single-A affiliates play in pitcher friendly leagues and stadiums. This might have something to do with our hitters and development issues. Also, I don’t think Sickels acknowledges that you could feasibly see with this years draft and the rumors that the Jays have budgeted $16 million for it and the possibility that several younger prospects are poised for break out years, especially with the renewed focus and energy towards player development that the Jays could have a top five farm system by 2011
Honestly
Do any of you see all of first 10 picks being signed? I dont. I wish they would but i dont see it happening. They have 16 million to spend my ass. I believe they will sign all the spots that wont be compensated for next year.
That being said if they do sign ALL of those high round picks the Jays could be on the way for a top 15 farm system.
Think about it
Sierra develops power, considering his tools, he has to be a B, to B+ prospect
Alvarez continues to develop, mid 90s fastball, plus change and control, finishes the year in Double-A, another B prospect at least
Carlos Perez continues to develop at Lansing, as D’Arnaud does at Dunedin, those are two elite catching prospects
Pierre continues to show plus power and cuts down on strikeouts are errors, another B or B- prospects
Justin Jackson recovers and rebounds
Kevin Ahrens figures it out
and David Cooper
Pastornickey develops power
etc. etc.
Anyways my point is, maybe with the acquisition of new prospects, and the infusion of resources to develop these prospects, these guys which most people have either written off or discounted will finally figure it out. Because in most cases, the tools are certainly there.
10 Picks
I think you’ll see most, if not all those picks being signed. More importantly, I think you’ll see the Jays aggressively going after high school guys with high bonus demands in the later rounds, similar to what the Red Sox and Yankees have done in the past. In the earlier rounds you’ll see a greater focus on tools rather than polish. AA gets it. Solid baseball players are great, but the spectacular ones are going to be the guys that’ll win in the AL East.
Dream Come True
To see the Jays invest in players that fall because of signability issues would be just that. The Sox and the Yanks are always good because they do just that (Think Casey Kelly, and Jose Iglesias). Thats the way to bulid a system, and i would be very happy to see the Jays start to do this.
they sort of tried this in 2009 with Paxton, didn't they?
it didn’t really work
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
They Tried
They missed a step. The first step is to draft the player the second step is to sign him. Theres no point in drafting a good talent if you arent going to sign him, its a waste. the dream is to see the Jays draft and sign these guys.
$16 Million
The $16 million number is the number I read in an article which came from another scouting director when he was talking about the Blue Jays and the upcoming Draft.
To me, this number seems incredibly high and I think if they did spend that much it would set some records. But I guess the thinking is this might be the last year teams can go over slot so who knows. I think $10 million is even wishful thinking. Maybe the number includes the budget for Latin American signings as well.
I doubt they will actually spend all $16 million
but they do have a lot of high picks and have been cutting salary fairly aggressively so both the money and the potential need are there. I think the $16 million is more of a statement to fans that while they are doing things to shed payroll, they are putting the money (or at least are willing to put the money) back into the team in player development. I find it encouraging.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
As do I
I just hope they are serious about spending money in the draft, and arent just going to sign a bunch of Coopers, and Russ Adams’.
We're missing a point...
AA wants a lot more scouts – last years fiasco is a major PROOF of his thinking. He wants our scouts not only to know the player inside and out but also the kids family. He wants to KNOW before the draft who will sign and – more or less – for what.This is all part of a scouts job – WHEN – there are enough scouts that they have the time to spend the time getting to know all they need to know to get the kid signed. AA will do just fine. Just fine.
As to our prospects – we’ve better prospects than we’re getting credit for.
I think Arencibia should be higher. JS is rating them from their specific performances from last year, rather than their potential/ceilings.
Personally, I want Arencibia to be more patient and surely the farm directors/managers/coaches are going to stress that to him. I see a turnaround year for him.
HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!
Sickels would fervently disagree with your comment
that he is not considering their potential. It is a combination of their potential and the likelihood that they will reach it. Arencibia’s potential is still all-star catcher, but it’s become less than likely he ever reaches it. It’s common for a player to have to learn plate discipline at each level going forward, which can take repeating the level (at least for a few months). It’s pretty uncommon for a hitter who has completely ignored plate discipline to suddenly develop it in his mid 20s (he’s 24 in a few weeks).
The Jays have been after Arencibia since he was drafted to be more patient at the plate. I don’t think it’s so much a problem of “patience” as we use the word as it is approach at the plate and pitch recognition. No matter how patient you are, you can’t lay off a pitch breaking out of the zone if you don’t realize it’s going to be out of the zone until after you start your swing.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I think your last sentence is very possible
the Jays’ system hasn’t been rated high for the past few seasons either, yet we keep graduating solid talent that holds its own at the mlb level. I’ll take the results over a better system ranking.
I also agree with you, mylegacy, that AA has much more of a plan in terms of how to build a competitive organization in the future.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Rolen is very valuable
He is the best 3rd basemen in the league, without a doubt. His bat is still solid; will hit for doubles power with a chance for 20HRs each year, and is very disciplined.
HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!
??
We got a lot for Rolen because JP fleeced them. Full stop.
He is the best 3rd basemen in the league, without a doubt.
He was, at best, the 3rd best 3rd basemen in the AL EAST last year (there’s these guys name A-Rod and Longoria, not to mention Youkilis). That doesn’t get to Wright, Sandoval, Young…
Please tell me you were joking.
I'm pretty sure he meant defensive third baseman
Since he noted that “his bat is still solid,” generally not how you’d describe the best player at his position.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Ricciardi, for all his faults, was an absolute master as getting other teams to overvalue his trade pieces. Rolen wanted out, and JP convinced them that he was worth two high level pitching prospects. When Shea Hillenbrand was causing dissent, Ricciardi flipped him for Accardo. If the man could learn to judge free agent talent the same way he drafts and trades, he’d be a brilliant GM.
Really?
Outside of Adams, I think he’s done pretty well: Hill, Romero, Lind, Snider, Marcum, Ray, Mills, Litsch. A couple of Silver Sluggers, two top end starters, that’s not bad for a draft.
not to mention
cecil, rzepczynski, janssen
no, 2004 - JP's third draft
League and Gross in 2001 were Ash’s last (McGowan was 2000).
It seems to me...
that under JP, the Jays did a good job of estimating likelihood to achieve ceiling and stressed that over pure potential. That would explain why the likes of Baseball America never really liked our system, yet it always produced solid players to the big club.
Prospect perverts like BA and BP and Sickels probably give too much weight to upside over likelihood to achieve it.
Idle Musing
Possible ceiling beats out probable use every time. It’s funny, but the Jays and the Yankees have been kind of the inverse of each other of what might have been their best options. The Jays drafted guys who could get into the system and to the Majors quickly, to compete cheaply and maybe add some pieces to if the money was there. The Yankees drafted high and risky, confident that if that prospect flamed out, they could always use free agency to fill the need.
If you reverse them, the Jays end up a kind of Rays type of team with more cash; low in the standings, but every so often when a couple of the high risk prospects click, go out and grab pieces to make a single year run. Meanwhile, Yankees drafting conservatively, getting guys into the system who move quickly to being servicable major leaguers means that they at the very least have a raft of average pieces in place cheaply to support their costly big free agent acquisitions, ultimately requiring them to use fewer of them. Just a thought, really…
by dexfarkin on Dec 29, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
J.P's problem
was he never swung for the fences. He did a good job picking safe players but he hardly ever took risks. He took Athrens (Bust) and Jackson (Bust?), and then he took Snider which could be his legacy. If he took a few more chances on potential players, our system would look more sexy, but he played it safe and got results (Cecil, Romero finally, Litsch. etc).

by 



















