Last Night, Talking Bout Last Night

by Tom Dakers on May 13, 2009 11:14 AM EDT in Toronto Blue Jays News

Everyone is talking bout last night. The Star's Morgan Campbell had this quote from Doc:

"The more fans that are here, the better team we are. Any team that draws well at home knows that," said Halladay, who is now 7-1 this season. "There's more energy. ... Hopefully, we'll play well the rest of the year and ... continue to keep that excitement."

One of those things that would be tough to measure, is our win/loss record over the years, better with 40,000 plus fans? I'm sure it is much more fun to play in front of a full house.

Richard Griffin, also in the Star, wrote about the game too, one paragraph caught my eye:

Last night, as the "warrior" departed the mound, this time on his shield, to a chorus of boos from the majority of 43,737 fans in attendance, Burnett, to his credit, did not sarcastically tip his cap as he had last June when they booed him off the field in a loss to the O's. Many feel that knee-jerk reaction was pivotal to his free-agency.

Really? Do many feel that reaction had anything to do with his free-agency? I know I'm not 'many' but I figured the truckloads of Yankee cash had a lot more to do with his free-agency. I wouldn't imagine that moment had anything at all to do with his free-agency. Anyone else think so? Griffin also said:

The Jays knew even then they would be unable to match any significant offers from the big boys in free-agency.

I'm not so sure about 'unable to match' the offer he got, I'm thinking too smart to match that offer. Is there anyone that thinks that at the end of the contract the Yankees will look back and think 'I'm glad we did that one'? No? Me neither.

Over in the Globe and Mail Robert Macleod did the game story and Jeff Blair wrote about the fans. I love Johnny Damon's quote:

“That was worse than what I got in Boston,” the Yankees left fielder said of the reception accorded New York starter A.J. Burnett on his return to Toronto.

This line from AJ shows he isn't following the team:

Burnett said he isn't surprised that the Blue Jays started as well as they have. “They're healthy,” he said matter-of-factly.

No AJ we aren't healthy, we have 5 possible starting pitchers on the injury list. Healthy we ain't but getting there slowly.

The National Post has a couple of stories about the game too, one by John Lott with a prophetic quote from Scott Rolen before the game:

So was Scott Rolen's personal scouting report on the fireballer he faced when Rolen was with the Philadelphia Phillies and Burnett was a member of the Florida Marlins.

"I was 0-for-22 against him," Rolen said, exaggerating slightly (he was 0-for-18). "That was back when he was throwing 98, 99 [mph], with that good curve ball. Obviously he's refined himself since then. Hopefully I'll have a chance."

When there is several years between when a pitcher and a hitter have faced each other, I'm not sure that their batting line against each other means much. The Post also had a story from Jeremy Sandler.

Even the Toronto Sun had two stories one from Mike Rutsey and one from Steve Simmons who talked about the crowd:

The most emotional Blue Jays game in Toronto in 16 years. Played by a team that seems impossible to dislike.

He's right, we have a real easy team to like. How ever it ends I'm sure we'll enjoy the ride.

Maybe we'll take a look at what the other blogs have to say about last night later, they all seem to be sleeping in this morning. The title comes from the Traveling Wilburys that I've been listening to again since it's been reissued. There are a lot of lines in the song that would have fit last night:

She was long and tall, she was the queen of them all

or:

She was dark and discreet, she was light on her feet
We went up to her room and she lowered the boom

or:

The party's just beginning she said, "Your money or you life?"

Or a few other lines but thought I'd just take the one that described the post the plainest. Boy Roy Orbison had a great voice.

Anyway, share your 'morning after' feelings

Now I'm back at the bar, she went a little too far
She done me wrong, all I got is this song

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Comments

As to the “playing better with a full house”, I’m sure there is a factor of energy that comes into play, but I think a more likely explaination is that full houses happens when the team is playing well. 40k people won’t pay to see a struggling, basement dweller. A 1st-placed team playing a divisional rival for the first time? Ya, they’ll pay.

And, as usual, Griffen’s full of it. I wouldn’t even remember that cap-tip if it weren’t for Sportsnet bringing it up every 5-10 minutes last night. Who cares? It was a knee-jerk reaction. I definitiely agree with you Tom that it was much more likely the multi-millions that the Yanks were handing out.

I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby

by wroth91 on May 13, 2009 11:21 AM EDT reply actions

I was surprised at the number of fans at the game that obviously remembered....

And yeah the cause and effect of large crowds is the other way round, good teams bring good crowds. Bill James did study on Reggie Jackson’s batting in front of big crowds…he did worse in front of large crowds.

by Tom Dakers on May 13, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions

I love that Traveling Wilburys record

despite not liking some of the production. George Harrison and the others wrote some neat tunes for the reord, but the best part of every song is when Roy Orbison comes in with his part.

One of those things that would be tough to measure, is our win/loss record over the years, better with 40,000 plus fans? I’m sure it is much more fun to play in front of a full house.

In the comment popping up, I can already see wroth making the point that readily comes to mind. A better measure might be to see to what extent teams with good home attendance overperform their overall pythagorean records when playing at home. Most teams should play better at home, so it’d be a question of degree – to what extent teams with good attendance were better at home than you would normally expect a usual team to be. That might give you some idea

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on May 13, 2009 11:28 AM EDT reply actions

You are right about the production....

I think that’s Jeff Lynne and George Harrison fault. Over produced. Great songs but should not have been so over produced. Same for Harrisons last CD…he wanted it put out with just him and his guitar, let the power of the songs carry it, Lynne turned it to sugar.

by Tom Dakers on May 13, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions

Just my speculation

but I don’t think Harrison trusted his voice, hence the overproduction. He wasn’t a very polished singer early in his Beatle days (you can actually hear him singing with a pretty think scouse accent, a huge no-no, on Do You Want to Know a Secret? and Don’t Bother Me off the Beatles’ first two records) and I think the impact of that and being overshadowed by more polished, more confident singers stuck with him for a long time – he wasn’t a real confident singer, hence his tendency to overproduce in his solo career (which also fit in with some of the style of the time).

Personally, I disagree – he certainly didn’t have much range but I always thought he used his voice well – it was earnest, and expressive while refreshingly free of orrnamentation. It was perfect for songs like “I Want to Tell You” , “All Things Must Pass” (another criminally over-produced song), and the great songs off his final record.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on May 13, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions

oh yeah....

I think George spent several years thinking he wasn’t as good a singer as John or Paul or as good a writer. I think ‘All Things Must Pass’ is one of those perfectly written songs. Paul did a nice job of it in that concert for George.

I’d imagine being around two amazing talents, like he was, would mess with your self confidence. But then I’m sure being around them showed him how to write songs. I’d love to get to watch guys that good put together a song, just once.

by Tom Dakers on May 13, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions

AJ would rather be Catching

I think it has to do with the Pitcher/Catcher relationships for male couples? AJ would rather receive then give? Very tasteless if you ask me

by bunner on May 13, 2009 11:31 AM EDT reply actions

that's what I thought the reference was too

which is pretty pathetic if that’s what the dude came up with.

“bro, my sign is totally hilarious! I insinuate that A.J. is, like, totally gay”

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on May 13, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions

as to AJ

he’s handling this well. As Sonny Corleone would say “it’s not personal; it’s strictly business.” AJ opted out of his contract to play for the Yankees; that’s the only reason he’s getting booed – it has nothing to do with his cap-tipping, his chile-pepper racing, his frequently brilliant and (less) frequently frustrating pitching.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on May 13, 2009 11:32 AM EDT reply actions

Yankees not welcome in Toronto

Yep, if you come to Rogers Stadium wearing any AL East jersey other than that of the Jays (but especially the Yankees) … you can, and should, expect inhospitable treatment … nothing personal, but somebody has to win and we are gonna do all it takes to make sure it is the Jays

by aagoodfella on May 13, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Morning after thoughts

I was very vocal the last couple days about Booing AJ. I think what would have been classy was to BOO him all game then when he eventually got the hook, give him a little ovation. To me this would say “Ya we hate you because you are a Yankee, but thanks for the past 3 years”.

I’ve been saying all week, I will gladly lose the next 2 days if it guarnteed last nights victory. I hope I didn’t sell my soul to the devil ;-)

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on May 13, 2009 11:34 AM EDT reply actions

Yankee Blogs

Its funny reading various Yankee blogs they still give no credit to the Jays. They just keep saying there is no shame in losing to doc and its just a foregone conclusion they will win the next two.

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on May 13, 2009 12:42 PM EDT reply actions

Yankee Pain Coming

Against a slumping Petite tonight … the Jays’ bats could have a real big game!

by aagoodfella on May 13, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Yankees fans

always feel it is a foregone conclusion they will win until they have lost (then they blame it on A-Rod). According to their fans every March, thanks to their big name acquisitions, you can just skip the season and hand them the division.

Of course, in this case, they may be right – certainly the pitching matchups don’t favour the Jays in the next two games. That’s why they play the games.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on May 13, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions

They don't?

Richmond’s ERA coming into tonight is almost a full run better than Pettite’s. That’s got to be good for something.

by SuckaMD on May 13, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions

that's true

but Pettitte’s FIP (4.52) is about the same as Richmonds (4.46). Pettite’s BABIP against is almost 50 points higher. What’s the difference between the two performances? Could be luck, could be the Jays’ superior fielding, could be both. Richmond has been great but can’t keep up a .256 BABIP against.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on May 13, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions

in case a non-nerd happens to read that

FIP is a measure of ERA independent of fielding – it attempts to measure a pitchers performance in the areas over which he exerts the most control – strikeouts, walks, and home runs. BABIP is batting average on balls in play and pitchers generally do not exert much control over it.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on May 13, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions

haha thanks

I’m new here and there is lots of accronyms I don’t know.

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on May 13, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Should add that to the side definitions

by Tom Dakers on May 13, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions

while you're at it

add UZR. learned what it meant last night, narrowly avoided my head exploding

by boo15749 on May 13, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions

ok, fair enough

but don’t the FIP’s at least give us a wash in tonight’s pitching matchups? Maybe we don’t have a big advantage, but neither do the Yankees.

by SuckaMD on May 13, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions

I would agree with that

and would refer you back to my weasel-y lawyer language that the matchup “[doesn’t] favour the Jays”, haha

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on May 13, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions

hahahaha

that’s the difference between doctors and lawyers!

"The NY Mets are my favorite squadron" -- Apu Nahasapeemapetilon

by jessef on May 13, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions

For the record...

I’m pretty sure the Blue Jays record in the last decade with 40,000+ in the crowd is abysmal. I’d have to go back and do legwork but I’m pretty sure that they had a pretty significant losing streak in front of the big Rogers Center houses going on in the middle of the decade.

I think the idea is that if the Jays are going to be a contender, more fans are expected to show up and so the Jays had better play well in front of big Rogers’ houses, otherwise they can’t take that next step.

by BMN on May 13, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions

I would imagine

that over the past 10 years or so, the Jays record is probably quite bad in front of 40,000+ crowds. Why? Because the Jays have really only seen those kind of crowds when playing the Yankees and Red Sox (and maybe the Indians back when people would drive up to Toronto because it was impossible to get tickets at the Jake). The Yankees and Red Sox have been very good teams over that span, while the Jays have largely been mediocre. Ergo, if good crowds mean you are playing good teams, you are likely to lose quite often.

by SuckaMD on May 13, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Jays have always played good teams really well

Its going 3-7 on west coast road trips that have historically been the Jays undoing.

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on May 13, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions

that may have been the case the last couple of years

but I certainly can’t remember far back enough to know if that trend extends throughout the whole past decade. Though you may very well be right, I think someone would have to run the numbers over the past 10 years or so to see if that’s actually the case.

by SuckaMD on May 13, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Haha

I never use numbers to base my arguments (BJ Ryan sucks, Rios and Wells are overpaid underachievers). Thats probably why no one should take me seriously! I could be very much incorrect
I do watch approximately 150-155 games a year and base my arguments on my eyes and gut.

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on May 13, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions

observations are data too

but as any lawyer worth a dime will tell you, eyewitness observations are inherently unreliable.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on May 13, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions

Off the top of my head

I do remember the Jays playing well against good teams over the past couple of years. I just can’t remember much beyond that to know if it’s truly an historical trend, or just fairly recent.

by SuckaMD on May 13, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions

last season

they stunk against the Rays and Angels, but were okay (18-18) against the Yankees and Sox and played the top two teams in the Central, Chicago and Minny, ridiculously well.

In 2007, they were basically around .500 against all teams with whom they had more than a few games, including 9-9 against Boston and 8-10 against the Yankees.

It’s funny, I also remember them playing better teams tougher, but I guess that’s somewhat true when you play .500 against both the best and worst in the league, as the Jays have generally done.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on May 13, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Basically ever since the Roger Clemens era, (which is as far back as I remember), the Jays seem to be running ~.500 ball against the Yankees and the Red Sox. That’s never been their problem in recent memory. Where they’ve fallen off, as has been commented before, is losing games they SHOULD have been able to walk away with.

by Blue and White Expat on May 13, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Exactly

I have no problem with the jays being .500 against the big 3 in the east. As long as they play around .667-.750 against the rest of the league, that should get to the promissed land. It seems like the entire AL is right around .500 right now. I know its still early, but its a nice little cushin.

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on May 13, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions

We have another dirty little surprise for the Spankies....

Tonight and tomorrow they get to see our “Kill Lefites” lineup.

Against Lefties: Bautista is 407 / 500 / 593, Lind is 341 / 357 / 512, Rolen is 387 / 486 / 645, Scutaro is 344 /476 / 625 and Hill is 395 /439 / 553.

Bring it on bitch!

by Mylegacy on May 13, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions