On Cito....

by Tom Dakers on May 21, 2009 2:49 PM EDT Comment 10 comments

Keep your right up Cito.(AP Photo/Jeff Lewis)

Don't get me wrong....I don't think Cito should be fired...that's totally over blowing what happened yesterday. Cito, as all managers do, has strengths and weaknesses. All managers do things that will drive you crazy at times, all managers do some things well. I wrote about Cito in length here, but let's talk about him a little bit.

Cito's strengths as sometimes hard to see, because he's quiet, he wants the spot light on the players, not himself. Cito's greatest strength is, of course, his record, he wins and that's the bottom line. He is really a great hitting coach. He seems to have a way of looking at guy swing and be able to see what they are doing wrong and make little suggests, without trying to totally redo the batter. Some batting coaches seem to want a player to change the way they do everything. Cito doesn't seem to do that.

You can see it here with us amateur batting coaches, we'll say a batter shouldn't swing at the first pitch or that he takes too many good pitches, or he's trying too hard or or too little or they are pressing. Cito doesn't seem to think he has to change the batter's whole philosophy.Just generally minor tweaks. I like that, I dislike batting coaches that expect every batter to do it their way.

Cito is patient. 95% of the time that's strength. He's is going to decide the players that are going to win for him and he's going to put them there and leave them. If he believes in a player, a slump or some poor games. He knows or thinks he knows what a player can do for him and will wait till it happen. Earl Weaver said that a manager should decide what his team should be be before the season starts and trust that he is right. Know who can do what and expect it.

Some of the time that patience will drive fans nuts. Take Vernon Wells (please), Cito decided that Wells is the best choice for clean up and it will take a ton of new information to change his mind. If you like Cito, then thinking he's going to make a change because it's been a month and someone isn't doing what you think he should, then you have to rethink. If you can't deal with patience, Cito isn't the guy from you. And yeah I want some of that out of a manager. A manager would be crazy to change his mind about a player every at bat. We'll all seen managers that have a new batting order everyday, I'm not sure that's helpful.

Cito has a calm that seems to help his team. A season is long and a team is going to have some wins and some losses. He doesn't get too up with the wins or down with the losses. We lose two in a row and the fans think the sky is falling, Cito if we lost 10 in a row (please don't test this) would still be even tempered. Billy Martin was the opposite, if the team won ten straight then lost one it would be the end of the world. Billy was a great manager.....for one season at a time, then it would wear on the players. Billy had players scared to lose, Cito has players that want to win for him.

Cito is not an active in game manager. Not active is an understatement, half the time I think he is sleeping. He doesn't hit and run much or almost at all. He doesn't bunt much (just now and then to drive you crazy). He doesn't force steals. He generally just puts the plays out there and lets them win the game. He isn't going to amaze you with in game maneuvers. It does drive me crazy at times, my favorite managers over the years are guys that made moves, played the game like a chess match. But likely letting the guys play is just as good in the long run. He rarely goes out to argue with the umpires and when he does it often seems his heart really isn't in it. Again, he is likely right, likely it doesn't do a team any good.

His first time with the team, he wasn't good with the pitchers, didn't seem to have a feel for when a pitcher was tiring. He was an extremely slow hook. I think he has improved. Ignoring last night, he seems to have been pretty gentle with the young arms. I like that. Young pitchers arms are fragile things and pitching when tired can cause all sorts of troubles. The young arms are important to our future so I'd rather he pull a pitcher too early over too late.

Relievers, well it seems like he uses the ones he trusts and spots in the other guys. Yeah when they are up by 5, I hate that he uses Scott Downs, I would like him to show faith in other pitchers. But lately our starters have been going deep enough into games that he doesn't seem be riding anymore too hard at the moment.

Anyway, again all managers have strengths and weaknesses. Some times things that work with one team won't work with another team. Right now it seems like Cito is the right man for this team. That doesn't mean he won't make you crazy on occasion.

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Comments

I will never question Cito

He is arguably the best managers the Blue Jays have ever had. We can sit on our coaches and say Cito should do this or Cito should do that, but only he knows his players strengths and weaknesses. I am getting pretty frustrated reading the posts and Fanshots the past 2 days. We lost 2 games. We are in first place. We have the best offensive team in baseball and people can’t wait to say what they would do to make it better.

I have vocally questioned Vernon’s 4th spot in the batting order, but Cito is paid to make these decisions and he is making them very well.

Since Cito has been managing the team, the Jays have the record in Baseball. Period. End of debate

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on May 21, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Oh heck, question sure....

No one is perfect. But then understand that he knows more about baseball than you and I will ever know.

I love the one saying Wells doesn’t care. What he doesn’t get is he is saying Cito is the worst manager ever. No manager would put out a player that doesn’t care. Cito knows exactly how much each of his guys care. And believe me, if he had one he thought didn’t care, that player wouldn’t see playing time again. Don’t confuse quiet with stupid.

by Tom Dakers on May 21, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well said

I’ve been known to yell at Cito plenty about his lack of in-game maneuvering (he can hear me through the TV, I swear). But you are probably right that in the long run, deciding who your best players and telling them to go win games is the best strategy. The biggest problem I have is when Cito decides that bad players should play over good players (or players who perform badly in a given situation COUGH MILLAR COUGH playing over players who perform extremely well in that situation).

All in all, I think you are largely right and put forth a good argument. And the team is winning, so we really needn’t be ragging on Cito and the boys too much. If the team was tanking, then maybe there’s an argument to be made. But everyone (except BBB) thought we would stink this season, so in that case we would just be playing to expectations.

One major idea I have had through all this is that people tend to place too much emphasis on “making things happen.” In all walks of life (sports, politics, business) the people who get the fame and recognition are the ones who appear to be “doing things” to cause positive outcomes in their field (e.g. making a lot of stock trades, lobbying for legislation to help a certain group of people, making lots of in game moves, producing lots of “active” stats in basketball like blocks or rebounds or assists).

One lesson that I think the recent statistical revolution in sports teaches us is that it is actually more important to work to avoid negative outcomes than to work for “positive” outcomes. Therefore, OBP (ie, the ability to avoid making outs) is a more important predictor of team success than, say, RBIs (a “positive outcome”). Similarly, in basketball, among the most valued attributes of a player is a low number of turnovers (ie, the avoidance of bad outcome) rather than the number of assists that player accumulates. Cito seems to take this to heart (whether consciously or not) by identifying those players who he thinks are most likely to win games for the team and allowing them to do so. It may not seem like he is trying to win very “actively,” but he’s probably limiting his own ability to do harm, which may actually be the best way to assure success.

by SuckaMD on May 21, 2009 4:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Nicely put...

And yeah I yell at the tv a bunch, last night was a prime example. Or not pinch hitting for Johnny Mac in a big moment. In my darker moments during these time I swear the man’s asleep. I really dislike when he talks about losing a game to win one later as an excuse for not pinch hitting. And, of course, saying ‘pitchers have to learn to pitch out of trouble’. Sometimes they do, but sometimes, like last night, you can see that the pitcher is tired and no good can come from trying to get thru the inning, except to make some doctor rich in the future.

Not making outs is a big deal in baseball, you have to score before 3 outs so giving any away is a bad thing. Even if I don’t score now if I make the inning last a little longer, the pitcher has to throw more and the middle of the order might get another chance,

by Tom Dakers on May 21, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok

Keep questioning him, but make sure you give him his props when his “non moves” win the Jays games. (ie, Kevin Millars game winning double). I’m sure people were calling for Richardson to be pulled a couple starts ago when he gave up 5 in the 2nd inning. He pitched a complete game that day. Sometimes doing nothing IS the correct move.

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on May 21, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

*Richmond, not richardson.

Not sure what I am smoking

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on May 21, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

True

But can we please agree that keeping Cecil in for 4 homers, and 6 ER in a single inning before pulling him was the most ridiculous thing ever? Cito is amazing, but that was some incredible brainfart. No pitcher should be left in for more than 6 ER in a game, let alone a single inning – especially when it’s a kid.

by Ryan H on May 22, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cito Lives!

Being a Jays fan but living in Chicago I rarely have the oppurtunity to watch the Jays play. (loved the Sox sweep) My fandom mainly consists of watching highlights, reading blogs, or most importantly looking at the box score. So I can’t really evaluate Cito on the basis of his in games moves, but that would be a waste of time anyway. (Tom you do it much better than I ever could) But I can easily evaluate his results. And they can’t be argued. We have a much more likeable and successful team with him at the helm. Whenever you have a problem with Cito, just remember who we had before “John ’has the temper of ’ Gibbons.” It should comfort you.

by icedbecker2007 on May 21, 2009 5:13 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

cito gaston

ive been a blue jay fan since their beginning at exhibition stadium ….I remember the snow in april……….
BUT getting back to cito my only criticism since seeing him start with the JAYS is that he has a tendency to have TOO MUCH PATIENCE FOR LEAVING A struggling pitcher in a game…………………in the last three games against boston and sadly I watched them all the new young pitchers got into trouble in the early going and tallet was the only surprise,but when cecil got into trouble he should have been pulled after 4-0….and 2 home runs …….he was struggling and cito just left him in…………A team has a chance of comming back especially with our batters after a 2-4 deficit but its all over normally after 6 runs…………….MY CRITICISM IS he needs to pull a pitcher when he struggles and back to back homers SHOULD BE AN INDICATOR.

by abluejaysinceexhibitionstadium on May 22, 2009 1:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs