There Really Are No Words......
by Tom Dakers on May 27, 2009 6:22 PM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays Game Recaps
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Printbut I'm going to use some anyway.
I can not figure what Cito was doing today at all. That was....at best stupid. A major league manager can not to that, when his team has lost 8 in a row.
To go over it.....in case anyone reading this is not depressed enough:
In the 8th, up by 5, Doc looked tired in the 7th. Cito brings in Carlson. Carlson pitched 1.2 perfect yesterday, but that includes warming up twice. So you had to figure he would be on a short leash. O's had a lefty, a righty and 2 more lefties due up so figured Carlson is there to pitch to those 4 at the very very most.
So Huff, infield single. Ok. Righty Mora singles to left, less ok but is life. Lefty Scott walks. Carlson clearly has nothing. Cito sits. Right-handed pinch hitter comes in. Cito sits (does he even notice a right handed pinch hitter is in?). Carlson strikes him out. Good, good. Righty Chad Moeller bats, Cito sits. Carlson hits Moellar. There is no way on earth Carlson should still be out there. No way. There is no excuse. He just brought in a run with a hit batter. He's got nothing. Cito sits. Robert Andino (righty) singles. Another run in. Bases loaded. Cito finally moves.
There is no excuse.
Downs comes in (yeah he could have saved things by being, you know, decent), and 2 hits later we are very lucky a relay from Rios to Hill to Barajas cuts down the go ahead run at the plate,
So scoreless 9th and 10th go by. Good pitching by Frasor and one aboslutely amazing catch by Bautista and we get to the 11th. Scoot singles, Hill homers. One would think that was a good thing. But one would be wrong. Frasor is done. Cito brings in BJ friggin Ryan.
But the O's have two lefties due up to lead off the inning and Ryan gets one. Righty Mora is up and Cito has League and Wolfe in the pen. Now League has been plenty wild at times this year, but he is a good reliever. Wolfe is ok I guess on occasion. Cito brings in Wolfe. How he decides Wolfe is a better choice than League I have no clue. Tying run at the plate. If League is wild we are 5 walks from a loss. Wolfe gives up a single and another single.Tying run at third. League gets strikeouts and ground outs. And stands in the pen. Wolfe on the other hand gives up a grand slam. Game over.
Earlier today I wrote, I thought, even handed stuff about Cito. And I was surprised that some took it as if I thought Cito shouldn't be manager. I didn't mean that at all.
Now. That was, that was the worst job of managing since Grady Little didn't take the ball from Pedro Martinez. That was a manager with no clue how to manage the game.
Anyway....Jays of Day.....Aaron Hill hitting our first home run in living memory (.394 WPA), Jason Frasor (.286) and Marco Scutaro (.108). Honorable mention to Doc who should have had his 9th win. Suckage Jays Brian Wolfe (-.889, I don't think I've ever seen that high a negative WPA number before), Scott Downs (-.253), Jesse Carlson (-.224). Barajas had a -.100 but made a truly super tag in the 8th to, at that point keep the game tied so can't give him a suckage award.
Biggest Suckage Jay Cito Gaston.
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AHHHHHHH!
I couldn`t believe it when I got home from school and checked the score!
In the grand scheme of things, the pain of life is not worth it.
Thanks Doc
Sorry for wasting your time with this useless organization. I wish you the best wherever you end up next.
Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.
by craig in calgary on May 27, 2009 6:30 PM EDT reply actions
Awfully melodramatic
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
Oh trust me there was lots of those.....
only thing I’m happy about is that I had the foresight to move my laptop off my lap before I started throwing things around
League's wildness isn't limited to walks
or even HBP. If he hangs a sinker he can give up a homer pretty easily.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
And his GB/FB ratio isn't great this year
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
I agree that some of Cito’s decisions were questionable today. Frankly, and I know I might have people jumping on me for this, I think he should have left Ryan in the game. Sure Ryan gave up a hit, but he did manage to get an out at least. Wolf? Not even that. And at least Ryan has had plenty of experience closing out a game. And I should correct you Tom, it wasn’t a grand slam Wolf gave up, just a 3 run bomb, lol. Anyway, it is very frustrating to see the Jays hitting finally do something only to have their bullpen implode and waste a solid effort by Doc. But, how often is that going to happen? Not much. Let’s face it, the stinker they came out with today is not something that is going to happen on a consistent basis. On this losing streak it seems like everything that could possibly go wrong, is. That said, crap games like this happen to the best of them from time to time. Let’s just hope the off day tomorrow will give the Jays a chance to clear their heads and get some rest, and then come back against Boston and get some retribution against the pitcher who started all of this madness: Wakefield.
Cito made two mistakes (1) Carlson too long (2) Wolfe too long
yanking BJ was fine …
the thing about these bull pen guys is that they have binary outings …. that is, either they are on or they are off …. if they walk or let the first guy hit, they are off, so you yank them right away
BJ was off so Cito yanked him
but Cito did not yank Carlson, Downs or Wolfe when they were off, such was the source of the downfall, IMHO
Your strategy requires a lot more warmup space in the bullpen
than most parks provide.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
puke. cry. puke. cry. cry. cry more.
the entire bullpen was off, except frasor. but bj would most likely have closed it out. puke. i weep.
the thing is, we have been spoiled for a long time with an excellent bullpen, but it has regressed. now we know how 80% of other mlb teams’ fans feel on a much more regular basis.
the jays will be fine. we will win more games than we lose, but this one hurt. bad.
Wow
Ok, I’m 37 years old and I still wear my Halladay number tee shirt when he pitches. I’m not superstitious, I just like to support “The Franchise” from way down here in Florida.
Anyway, Tom’s headline pretty much says it all. Between the NINE straight losses and Halladay getting robbed of win number NINE, I don’t know what to say either.
10 runs is usually enough to win most games, except maybe in Fenway?
That’s all I got. That and frick.
I am so glad that tomorrow is an off day
We, particularly the bullpen, need one very badly.
I hope on Friday, we’ll wake up and have a better day in the baseball field. I hope….
I also hope tomorrow’s game in Minnesota goes 18 innings and thoroughly messes up the BoSox bullpen. I hope….
Tom. You hit the nail on the head. Couldn’t have said it better myself. Watched the game tonight after listening on the radio. Both were awful. At least with the radio I couldn’t see what was going on and only imagined it.
Not pulling Carlson was like not pulling Cecil.
Putting in BJ Ryan didn’t make much sense to me either.
I know we want to save him for later, but I think if Halladay goes out for the 8th we win. Even for one out.
by BigTimeBlueJayFan on May 27, 2009 11:27 PM EDT reply actions
I thought Halladay looked tired in the 7th....
And if you can’t hold a 5 run lead for 2 innings then we need help.
There's a reason for that :P
J/K
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
Yeah the reason is I've been married for a long time......
us married guys don’t hear we are right very often.
And if my wife reads this….it was a joke, honest…..
Yeah I understand why Cito replaced Halladay to start the 8th. While in hindsight it might have been better to leave Halladay in, Cito was expecting his bullpen to be able to hold a 5 run lead (and who wouldn’t? Unless maybe you’re Cleveland). Plus, Halladay did not look very sharp in the 7th inning.
Hey Tom
you sniped at me for taking a shot at Cito two days ago. Did you have an epiphany or something? Cito has been this clueless all season, but Scutaro’s walks and Hill’s homers have save him on several occasions.
He is a great hitting instructor, but a weak strategist, which doesn’t make him a bad guy. Just a bad manager. There is a good reason Cito had to wait 10 years to get another job as manager – with the same franchise no less.
The problem is what do you do now? I think we ride out the season with him, and if we don’t make the playoffs, make a change. When the starting pitching is straightened out, I think this is one of the top 3 teams in the AL. The Blue Jays SHOULD make the playoffs, not could.
by Chesapeake Ron on May 28, 2009 12:15 AM EDT reply actions
Yeah I didn't like the line about Cito sleeping in the dugout because he didn't do what you like with the lineup....
I don’t think I suggested in this above rant that Cito was sleeping. The lineup thing is a question of what stats you believe in. If you believe the month of April is the most important information there is about a batter, then he might want to change the batting order. If you believe the last full season is more important then Wells and Rios are our best batters. I wouldn’t insult Cito because I disagree on batting order, I know in the long run it’s not that important.
I don’t think Cito is a bad manager, I think he did an awful job today. I don’t think he’s been clueless all year, I think there have (I think) three times this year were he left a pitcher in longer than I thought he should, tonight was one. If you went thru my recaps I think you’d find I ranted about Cecil being left to roast in Boston and I think there was one other time, can’t remember the game but again I think he left a reliever in when I thought it was clear he was tired. And in fairness, he knows things about the pitchers that I don’t. Maybe there is a reason he didn’t go to Frasor sooner. Maybe League is nursing an injury that we don’t know about.
I wrote this morning (it seems like a long time ago now) that Cito isn’t an in game strategist. He isn’t going to hit and run, bunt, squeeze, pinch hit. I think I also suggested that I would bet that these things don’t do as much for a team’s win/loss record as fans think. What Cito brings is a calm, patient approach. I think I also said, this morning, that I thought Cito had improved in his use of pitchers, so course he does this today……
I don’t think we are a top 3 AL team, talent wise. Being honest….with Marcum and McGowan hurt, Litsch hurt and Purcey ineffective, we are using our number 1 starter and our number 6,7,8,9 starters. And that’s understating things because Tallet wasn’t on the starter depth chart at all. Add in Romero was hurt and Janssen wasn’t ready to start the season and we had number 10 and 11 on the depth chart starting for us. Find me a team that could be over .500 with their #2 to #7 starters all hurt.
I picked the team to win 86 games this year, but if you told me that McGowan wouldn’t be back and Litsch would be hurt and Purcey would be in Triple-A, I would have guessed a lot fewer wins. Add in Snider hasn’t been the guy I thought he’d be and Rios and Wells have been slumping, Cito’s pulled some sort of magic act off that we aren’t in last, never mind we are above .500.
But yeah, today was awful. I don’t fire him today, but if I’m JP, I do ask about it. What was the thought process, what would you do differently in the future?
Carlson in the 8th is terrible, does Cito not know this?
During the game thread I mentioned that my it seemed to me that Carlson has been bad news in the 8th inning and Tom (I think) pointed out how effective he had been the day before. I had a chance to double-check and Carlson has been used in the 8th inning of a close game 4 times in the last 14 games, here are the results:
May 14 gives up run in the 8th vs. Yankees to take the loss
May 18 gave up 2 runs in the 8th to the White Sox to lose the lead but Jays come back to win in 9th
May 22 gave up only run of the game in the 8th at Atlanta in a 1-0 loss
May 27 charged with 5 runs in 1/3 of an inning in the 8th at Baltimore
He has been effective in non-8th inning stints or 8th inning stints in games that are blowouts. I don’t see every pitch of every game and I knew Carlson (despite decent stats) has not been effective as the bridge to Downs in a tie game or in a save situation, how can the manager not know that?
Cito probably knows...
but he apparently has no solution to the problem. The manager can only use what is available. The loss of BJ Ryan — only a shell is left on the BlueJay roster — needs to be addressed, so Scott Downs can go back to the 8th inning role, with Carlson and Frasor in the 7th.
maybe because a manager would say that's an extremely small sample size?
Today Carlson was terrible, but then he pitched 1.2 inning yesterday. That means he warmed up twice too, I would have thought he’d only be available for a couple of batters at the most. I don’t think Jesse would come in thinking ‘oh no it’s the 8th inning, I can’t pitch the 8th’. Seems far fetched to me.
4 for 4 is not too small a sample size
The closer and the set-up man have become pretty clearly defined roles in today’s bullpen. Ryan blew 2 saves and was done as the closer (albeit this was preceeded by injury and a troublesome spring training). In a 2 week stretch if a reliever blew the only 4 save situations they had (and maybe pitched well once or twice in a different situation) it would be clear to all that a change (or Rios like rest) was needed until the ship was righted. And unless the reliever is an established top flight closer someone else is likely getting the next save opportunity. There are reasons why there are closers and set-up men, there is a difference pitching with the game on the line in the 8th or 9th and being called on to get 2 or 3 left-handed hitters out in the 6th. Managers knows the difference, fans know the difference, and the evidence seems strong that Carlson knows the difference. It’s why not every good reliever can be a good closer or set-up man and why closers and set-up men often pitch differently when used outside their parameters as well.
There are good reasons why the bullpen is an disarray (Tallet in the rotation, Downs being the closer, and Ryan sucking the main ones). But trying the same set-up man 4 times in a row and having him fail every time is unacceptable, especially with a former closer like Frasor not getting one such opportunity.
by touchemalljoe on May 28, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually something I am curious about…why Cito replaced Carlson with Downs. I’m not entirely sure why he replaced a lefty with a lefty. Maybe he still wanted a lefty in there but just didn’t want to keep Carlson in any longer? Hmm…
The Closer is not sharp due to inactivity?
Another symptom of poor bullpen management? Should the bullpen coach do something about it?
Bring back John Sullivan. He’d make that dugout phone ring…
John: Cito, Carlson ain’t coming out of this pen tonight.
Cito: Ok. John. I’ll stick with Roy for another inning.
John: Not a bad idea. We’ll get three outs on three pitches and Downsy is ready to go after that.
Cito: Thanks John. BTW, that Downs guy seems to have a lot of potential. Where did he come from?
John: Oh. He’s been sitting in the pen dodging homerun balls while you’ve been sitting on your butt.
Cito: Wait a sec John. The other phone is ringing. Hey John, Pete Rose just called. On second thought bring in Carlson. Can you get BJ up too, We’ll likely need him if Carlson doesn’t blow it enough.
by BigTimeBlueJayFan on May 28, 2009 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Despite a 9-game losing streak that is freaking everybody out,
the Jays still has the most W’s in the AL (tied with 3 other teams). We had an awful day today, but things are not really that bad.
After the current road trip, we are returning home where we have a solid 16-6 record. Our scheduled opponent this coming weekend has a losing road record. There’s still hope!
You get out of here with your optimism.
Sheesh. I thought this was a family site? There is no room for pollyanna posts when the Jays lose. LOL
I just think that Cito doesn’t trust League. I assume this by his actions recently. League has only pitched twice since May 17th.
We don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks. - Calvin
Thanks Tom...
for your long and thoughtful reply to my post. Actually I’m a little surprised, since I am supporting many of your points this year.
Definintion: Sleeping in the dugout – an expression to describe an inactive manager.
I was not suggesting that he was actually sleeping in the dugout. But come on, anyone can watch the games and be patient. A good manager will make the moves necessary to help the team win. At least find a strategist for a bench coach that he will trust.
Yes, I think the lineup should have been changed weeks ago, but to not pinch hit for MacDonald with runners in scoring position, or never bunt late in a tie game, those are egregious mistakes.
I’m starting to think you have a fondness for Cito because of the titles in ‘92-’93. Since I was not a Blue Jay fan back then, I have no such allegiances. I think I am more objective.
I truly wasn't his biggest fan the first time thru....
And I’m likely not now…
But you know the best way to judge a manager? His record. What have the Jays done since hiring Cito? It’s really nothing to do with fondness, I like the team winning. If this losing streak goes another few games and we have more like today (please no), then we can talk about a different manager.
Tom
I agree about Cito. He managed the team very poorly yesterday. I was shocked to see Carlson stay in after he failed to get Huff and Scott, the lefties, and even more shocked to see Ryan make way for Wolfe. The team really needed the win yesterday and Cito, Carlson, Downs, and Wolfe just didn’t do their jobs.
On the other hand, we did score 10 runs and finally break the homerless streak. Scoot and Hill are hitting well at the top of the lineup and Wells seems to have come around some too. We will get the bullpen situation sorted out – we just need to get Accardo up with the big league team and get some of the guys back on track.
Also, I know Cito doesn’t trust League, but he has to start using him — in 14 out of his 18 outings, he hasn’t allowed any runs (that’s an imprecise stat to use for a relief pitcher but you get the idea). Yes, his control has been shaky at times but he’s generally gotten the job done, and his control won’t improve unless he gets regular work.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Actually that's likely a better stat for a reliever than ERA or most others....
What do you want out of a reliever…a scoreless inning.
And you are right…everybody hit except Lind and he took 2 walks. The top four in the lineup had 2 hits each and scored 6 and drove in 6 runs so it would be nice to have a day off from ‘change the batting order’.
But man it was frustrating.
It was frustrating
But thats the beauty of baseball. A good weekend series against Boston and we are back in it. When my Chiefs blew one of their 400 second half leads as they did last season I’d have to wait an entire week. To see them do it again mind you.
Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.
by craig in calgary on May 28, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Watching the Chiefs last year must have been tough! Even my Bills beat up on them..
by masterkembo on May 28, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
That Bills game was beyond terrible
When you score 32 points, you shouldn’t lose by 3 touchdowns.
Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.
by craig in calgary on May 28, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm done
I wrote a post last week criticizing fans who jump off the bandwagon when things are going badly so when I say I’m done it’s not that I’m no longer a Jays fan. I’m done means I have returned to reality and have no hopes that this is a playoff team. I’ll still watch most games, still cheer them on but all the playoff hopes are done.
As for Cito he’s never been that kind of manager. He likes to sit back and watch the game. He has improved the team but when it comes to strategy Cito should know better. Earlier this season I was criticizing him for not moving Rios and Wells out of the 3-4 spot and insisting on benching Lind when lefties pitch (not even pinch hitting when a righty reliever comes in). It was okay then though because we were winning. Now after losing 9 in a row any manager worth his salt would do something to shake up the team. Bench a guy. Drop a guy in the lineup. Relegate Carlson to ballboy status. Just do something Cito instead of sitting on your goddamn hands.
Unacceptable.
A Nation of Masochists a blog dedicated to Toronto sports fans, who are continually punished but keep coming back for more.
for someone with masochist
in their blog name, you have a low threshold for pain inflicted by your sports teams. Yeah, this losing streak was brutal but we’re still in the race and this has to be the worst of it so let’s sit back and wait for things to get better before we write the team off entirely. Look at last season, we had just as brutal of a stretch and it still ended up being a fun team to watch the second half.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Take a look at Oakland a few seasons ago. They were well out of the playoff race after the All-Star break, but ended up winning like 16 games in a row to make it. In fact didn’t they do a similar thing two years in a row? Anyway, the point is, you can’t discount a team unless its 2 weeks left in the season and they are 15 games out. Obviously that isn’t to say I expect the Jays to win that many in a row nor that they would have to to get back in the race, but you get my drift.
Hugo like I said I’m still going to punish myself and watch them to the brutal end. I’m just not optimistic anymore.
A Nation of Masochists a blog dedicated to Toronto sports fans, who are continually punished but keep coming back for more.
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