Doc is 9-1, Jays Win
by Tom Dakers on Jun 3, 2009 1:39 AM EDT
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PrintWell that was interesting. Roy Halladay was almost untouchable for 6 innings, then was very touchable in the 7th. In the 7th he loaded the bases on a single, single, walk. Then gave up a run on another single, then one on a wild pitch, then two sac flies to empty the bases. But we were still up 6-4. I really didn't think he'd be out for the 8th but he was. Then I was sure he wouldn't be up for the 9th, but Cito surprised me. But in the 9th Doc got the first two out on strikeouts then gave up a single.
Then Cito got guys up in the bullpen. This I really didn't understand. I figured at very least Cito would have guys warmed up in case Doc got in trouble. Why he would wait until a two out single I don't know. By the time they would have been ready to pitch the game would have been lost. Fortunately Doc got Maicer Izturiz on three called strikes. Looking at Gameday, the three strike pitcher were at best on the very edge of the strike zone. The last strike was a hanging curve just at the top outside corner.
Doc finished with 133 pitches. Likely at the very very top end of the number of pitches I'd ever want him to throw, especially early in June. But it all worked out. But Cito, let's not do it again next start. Is kind of funny that he threw that many pitches on a day that Jordan Bastian wrote about Cito telling him that they would 'keep a close eye on how they use their ace'. Doc finished with 14 strikeouts, just 7 hits and 1 walk allowed in 9 inning.
Offensively the Jays scored 6 runs off 9 hit. Offensively the Jays got 2 hits each from Kevin Millar, Scott Rolen, and Rod Barajas. Nice to see Millar have a good game after I commented on the poor April he had. Alex Rios also had a homer in his second game in a row. Really great to see him heating up. I wish the same could be said for Vernon Wells who was 0 for 4 today.
Jays of the Day are Doc (.378 WPA) and Jose Bautista (.146). Honorable mention goes to Rios, Millar and Barajas who for the second time in a couple of games scored all the way from first, this time on Bautista's triple. That's a long way for a catcher to run. No suckage Jays today, though Scutaro was close at -.087 WPA, ending his hitting streak at 9 games.
Tomorrow Jered Weaver (4-2, 2.36) goes against Casey Janssen (1-1, 4.15), should be a great game.
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A couple of things...
#1, it should have been obvious to anybody after what happened last Wednesday that Halladay was going to go the distance if this game was close. I wasn’t surprised at all that Cito went to him.
#2, Enjoy the damn win and one of the most dominant pitching performances in Roy Halladay’s career. You really need to stop worrying about pitch counts, especially with a pitcher like Halladay. Back during Cito’s first run as a manager, pitchers routinely went 120+ pitches, and Doc is very much a throwback to that era. He’ll be fine.
#3, Halladay’s pitches were fine in the 9th, despite your apparent disgust in the game thread. Check out Gameday, his fastball touched 95 twice in the last AB, and he meant to throw that curve ball in the strike zone (which totally fooled Izturis, I should add).
#4, yes, Cito has made a lot of mistakes this season. But sticking with a pitcher who clearly still had his stuff in the final 2 innings was a good move.
by Brad Fullmer Fan on Jun 3, 2009 4:42 AM EDT reply actions
not the game at hand that is the issue
the primary concerns are
(1) it takes longer to recover from a marathon 133 pitch game, Doc’s performance may be adversely affected next game – part of the reason for a bullpen is to provide relief for starters … oh yea, that is why they call them relief pitchers
(2) it is a long season and exhaustion is a cumulative phenomenon … if you continue to overuse personnel the impacts will be most evident in Aug / Sep
(3) the more pitches you throw the higher the probability of injury, plus Roy is 32 years old, young by societal standards, but not by pitching — obviously he does not need to be protected at 80 pitches per game or whatev, but 133 pitch marathon sessions are really unnecessary
(4) risk of injury is also cumulative … the incremental risk of injury rises with pitch count so that increasing pitch count from 132 to 133 is much more risky than increasing count from 32 to 33 — pitch counts do matter!
Missed the game
But caught the highlights. 133 pitches?
Not smart long term, but I’m guessing Roy was making a point about wanting to win and he wasn’t going to let the pen or some pitch count get in the way of that.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jun 3, 2009 9:28 AM EDT reply actions
I honestly couldn’t believe when he came out for the 9th. I undestand the bullpen has been shaky lately and Doc was working on five days’ rest, but 133 pitches is really pushing it. I remember a couple years ago when Burnett threw something like over 120 pitches in three straight starts, and of course landed on the DL. Doc is obviously much less injury-prone than AJ, but let’s try to keep it to 100 pitches max in his next start.
I'll never understand the fascination about pitch counts
Particularly with fans who don’t seem to have any background on the topic or any knowledge about the history of the game.
Throwing 15 more pitches than he usually does isn’t going to send the most durable starter in the league to the DL. And limit the guy to 100 pitches, haha? He isn’t some rookie. Simmer down, people, and get some perspective.
Furthermore, there is no real reason to be worried about his next start. Doc has a very good career record following starts of 120+ pitches.
by Brad Fullmer Fan on Jun 3, 2009 10:23 AM EDT reply actions
ummmm because pitchers that throw when tired get hurt.
It is not a lack of knowledge….disagreeing is fine, saying that people that think the other way are wrong because they don’t know anything is not fine. 133 pitches is a career high for Doc, so saying he does good after that many pitches is a guess.
Pitch count
I’ve always thought the 100 pitch total was an overrated number. In my opinion pitcher fatigue depends on how hard the pitcher is throwing and how ‘high-stress’ the pitchers innings are. I mean, 100 is just a nice arbitrary number that people tend to concentrate on because…people like nice rounded off numbers. Roy was obviously tired in the 9th, but considering he struck out the side it’s tough to question the decision to leave him in there.
I was as surprised as anyone to see Doc come out in the 9th, however, I wonder how much of that decision was his, and how much of it was Cito’s? I feel like Roy told Cito that he was finishing the game no matter what and hell, it seemed to work out okay this time. Maybe the extra day of rest before the game contributed to it as well…?
Hopefully the next game is a shorter and I don’t expect to see too many of those games this year. Anyway, good win and go Jays go! Nice to see some hitting with RISP as well, and good games for the bottom of the lineup.
Yeah, 100 pitches is a number, I would never say that a pitcher shouldn't throw more than 100
some starters should never throw 100 pitches, some can go 115 no problem.
If the pitcher is telling the manager what is happening in the game there is a problem. You don’t want the players taking over. Players and managers have different perspectives on things or should have.
When it's Doc,
Cito is and should be a nonactivist. Roy has his own regimen, his own likes, that Cito ought to respect. Unlike other levels in baseball, these are the best players in the world. And with Doc, he is arguably the best pitcher in baseball with plenty of years of experience to boot. In those years, he knows his fatigue level, he knows what it takes to land straight to the DL. If I’m Cito, I don’t worry about him.
You handle players in an equitable manner, not equally. How you handle Roy Halladay is going to be different than how you handle Scott Richmond, Brian Tallet, or pretty much anyone else on that staff.
Completely agree
I was going to say something similar – 100 pitches seems very arbitrary to me.
Prehistoric Hoops - a neat little Raps blog
Tonight worries be a bit
Jered Weaver is a stud and Janssen (IMO) hasn’t looked very good thusfar. I still can’t get past the fact he has had only 7 swing misses the past 2 games total. Ya, I know he is a ground ball pitcher. Thats what they say about Doc too.
Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.
by craig in calgary on Jun 3, 2009 10:50 AM EDT reply actions
masterkembo got it right.
Many of you are making a big deal out of nothing. It’s alright to have 120+ pitch games. Especially with how Doc pitches. Add-in the fact that it seems as if he wanted to finish the game. He’ll be fine.
I don’t post often on here (this is actually just my second time), but there are a lot of winers on these threads. Enjoy the win. Halladay is a true throwback; a workhorse, if you will. I would think that Cito and Doc know his limitations better than we do.
And just to draw back to my SUBJECT line, pitch count is one of the most overrated “stats” in baseball (this coming from a numbers guy). Pitching effeciency and effectiveness are more important. Heck, I just watched AJ Morris (friend of mine) pitch 144 against Rice on Saturday night with no problem whatsoever. Granted it’s comparing apples and oranges arguably, but the point is — don’t worry about pitch count. Fatigue and the count are not as directly related as one may think.
I stole this from Halo's Heaven.
I thought it was pretty funny! (Sorry Hugo’s mom for the language!)
Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.
by craig in calgary on Jun 3, 2009 10:58 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
One more
Make it green!!!
Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.
by craig in calgary on Jun 3, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
133? Thats nothing!
Read this article about a highschool kid who threw 201 pitches through 13 innings. When he was told he wouldn’t pitch in the 14th inning, he went and hit a walk off 2 run homerun! Now thats a great story!
Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.
by craig in calgary on Jun 3, 2009 11:25 AM EDT reply actions
In a related story later that evening Dr. Andrews was making space on his calendar for a future appointment.
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it. - Dogbert
Magpie at Batters Box
Actually went and did some research on Halladay and his 120+ pitch starts
-- Gravity is not just the law, it's also a good idea
Interestingly, the blue jays lose more than they win when Halladay throws 120 pitches.
by BigTimeBlueJayFan on Jun 3, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
nice to see some new faces here bucking the usual wisdom of this blog
thanks brad fullmer fan et al for restoring some sanity to this forum…. some people here remembering baseball pre 1998—- re. leaving pitcher’s in, pitch counts etc….
Yep, because it happened before it must be right.
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it. - Dogbert
Well, this is baseball
If it worked 100 years ago, it’s still valid today. facepalm
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
Facepalms!
I love facepalms!
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it. - Dogbert
why not say something without insulting at the same time....
it is truly fine to disagree….don’t have to say ’I’m the only one that knows anything’.
Folks I've beat this drum enough lately.....
no personal attacks….if you someone is wrong…welcome to say so. If you think everyone here is stupid or insane…you are welcome not to come back. Comments like that will be removed.
Even against blatant Bosox trolls?
Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.
by craig in calgary on Jun 3, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Craig in Calgary dresses funny! And Smells!
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it. - Dogbert
I do.
I’m a funny looking smelly dude!
Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.
by craig in calgary on Jun 3, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
well blatant trolls I'd rather just be ignored....
as much fun as it is to play sometimes….
I think Hugo said all rules can be ignored when talking about Roger Clemens….
Sorry
If I was rather harsh, I apologize, but this whole pitch count fascination in baseball gets on my nerves.
by Brad Fullmer Fan on Jun 3, 2009 5:19 PM EDT reply actions
Well like I said...
Very allowed to disagree….but if you try to say that you are the only one that understands baseball or understands the history of the game, you are fair less likely to be listened to. As soon as I see someone start their argument like that I skip anything else they have to say. I personally feel I understand the history of the game fairly well. Pitch counts became a big deal after Billy Martin destroyed his Oakland A pitching staff. You’ll never see that sort of managing again because he ruined the careers of some very good pitchers.
What I said originally was:
Doc finished with 133 pitches. Likely at the very very top end of the number of pitches I’d ever want him to throw, especially early in June. But it all worked out. But Cito, let’s not do it again next start.
And I don’t think that was too far off the mark….if a guy throws the most pitches he ever has in a long career in one start, I’d expect the manager to be careful the next start.
re. 'restoring sanity to the forum'
sorry if i insulted anyone…i am not trying to make ad hominem attacks, just criticizing certain currents of wisdom that run through this blog and seem to be shared by 95% of the people. basically, i disagree vehemently with sabermatician acolytes blindly following bill james and billy beane theories—- i agree with a lot of bill james but find a lot of his theories to be facile and pointless—-and while the steroid era allowed teams to play a certain way, conforming to the obp, three run homer, no field strategy, i think we have to adjust our thinking to the post steroid era, which resembles the pre steroid era…
and the other thing that gnaws at me is a sort of laissez faire attitude pervading this forum: specifically, that the Jays should follow some JP script that 2010 will be our year——we were very close last year and very close this year, basically a bat or two away—-and to say that we can’t trade some of our future for a bat is a big mistake….look at the mets santana trade last year, look at the braves trade for mclouth this year—-there are a lot of motivated sellers in the majors and notwithstanding our limited budget, we can still deal for present day talent.
anyway, hope i didn’t insult anyone…
And where did that land the Mets?
The same spot as Toronto, the outside looking in… But anyway, that was a rough comparison from the get-go.
There is no reason to trade our young guys for “talent” when the idea of making the playoffs this season is still, IMO, a pipedream.
And I don’t think you insulted anyone. Everyone’s got a right to his own opinion, so long as he can support it.
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