Royals 6, Jays 2
by hugo on Jun 6, 2009 5:57 PM EDT
in Game Recaps
43 comments
Not much to say about this one. The Jays offense was pretty listless against Royals starter Luke Hochevar, with a Raul Chavez 2-run home run accounting for the only two Blue Jay runs. Lyle Overbay had a pretty decent day at the plate, with a walk and a well-hit double into the gap, and that was about it. That said, the Jays didn't exactly run out their A-lineup, and Hochevar pitched a pretty good game. Please, Cito, no more batting Jose Bautista 2nd against righties, and you don't need to let Mac hit for himself late in the game when you're down by 3 either.
On the other side of the ball, Scott Richmond looked pretty good through 4 but things really fell apart in the 5th. Richmond got the first out, then Jose Guillen singled and Mark Teahen hit a 2-run home run to left-centre field. OK, these things happen when lefties hit against Richmond. But then Richmond gave up a double to Callaspo and then got the next out before then proceeding to walk the next two hitters to load the bases for Willie Bloomquist. If you've been following the Jays, you know what happens when they face Willie Bloomquist in a critical situation, and today was no different. Bloomquist hit a 3-run triple to break the game open and that was essentially all she wrote, though Jesse Carlson gave up a run in the 8th. Shawn Camp did a nice job in a losing effort and B.J. Ryan pitched a quality 9th inning.
Tomorrow, the Jays look to take the series with Doc on the mound pitching against Kyle Davies. There were no Jays of the day, but let's give honourable mention to Chavez, Overbay, Camp, and what the hell, B.J. Ryan. An effective Ryan would be a big help.
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Ok, now this team just downright confuses the hell out of me. They bat well against Greinke, but do squat against Hochevar, a guy who can’t even be considered a moderately half decently mediocre pitcher at best? I think we can just about stick a fork in these Jays, they’re near done. A team with this much inconsistency isn’t going anywhere, I hate to say. But I’ll still cheer for em till the end, I just find it hard to get my hopes up for greater things when they come out with a complete crap-fest like today. At least with their stinkers against Lester, you can use the excuse that Lester is a good pitcher but has merely been struggling, not so with Hochevar. Sad. Very very sad.
by Icedragon on Jun 6, 2009 6:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
did you watch the game?
Hochevar pitched well. Just because his numbers in a tiny major-league sample size this season don’t look good doesn’t mean he isn’t capable of pitching a good game against a major-league team, especially one with a depleted lineup like the Jays. Take a look at his numbers this season before he was called up and his pedigree; chances are he will be a very good major-league pitcher, not just a “moderately half decently mediocre” one. I wouldn’t read too much into this one game.
Also, if being 2 1/2 games out of first in early June is being “near done” for you then okay. Personally I am enjoying the games, and though I probably don’t have any different opinion than you about the likelihood of the Jays winning the East, I think they’re far from done.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Jun 6, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
depleted lineup like the Jays brought out today, that is
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Jun 6, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hochevar had a 5.51 ERA last season in which he pitched 129 innings, so its not just a small sample. Also, its funny how these pitchers can suck before they face the Jays and then suddenly they, as you say, ‘pitch well’ when they face the Jays. The simple fact is there’s no reason the Jays should have been able to hit Greinke yesterday and then do nothing today, I don’t care how good the guy pitched. Its not like the guy merely only had a bad outing his last time out, he’s been below average in his entire career in the bigs (not including the first year that he only pitched 12 innings). So why did he suddenly become great today? And I think the Jays are near done because both the Sox and Yankees are playing great baseball right now. The Jays, well, aren’t. Here’s the problem with that: I don’t expect the Yankees or Sox to start struggling so bad as to lose 9 games in a row. The Jays have shown that inconsistency thus far. And as long as the Sox and Yankees keep winning consistenly and the Jays don’t, they are just going to keep falling farther and farther behind. And lets not dismiss the fact the Rays are right on their heels now. I’m not saying the Jays are “done”, but they’re getting pretty close. Obviously there’s still time left for them to pick up their game, but I give it another month tops, and if they’re still playing like they have been lately, then I’d say its pretty much over. Lets not delude ourselves, I don’t see this team pulling off some 15 game winning streak after the all-star break to pull back into the race.
by Icedragon on Jun 6, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hochevar is a top prospect that was lights out in AAA so far this year. Just because he hasn’t put it together in the bigs yet, doesn’t make him a mediocre pitcher. Don’t delude yourself he isn’t as bad as you think he is.
Secondly you don’t expect the Yanks or the Sox to go into a slump? Did you see the start of the season? The Yanks weren’t exactly lighting up the board.
For gods sake, we have Halladay going tomorrow for a series win, Cheer for that
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it. - Dogbert
by JohnnyG on Jun 6, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't need a 9 game losing streak from the Red Sox or Yankees
Just needs a couple 2 or 3 game streaks while the Jays win.
That’s the one thing that bugs me – a 9 game losing streak IS bad, but more in the fact that it was 9 games lost. I don’t care about the length of the streak. Teams will lose games, we just did it all at once. And yet we were still within a game or two of the division lead after that.
Does that make sense to anyone else? I’m having a hard time explaining it… I just think that saying “9-game losing streak” kinda sensationalizes the matter when we are still only a few games out of first even AFTER it.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
by wroth91 on Jun 6, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What a player does in the minors hardly matters once they hit the bigs. There are plenty of players who play/pitch great in the minors but never repeat that success in the majors, and even the opposite is true where a player might not be that great in the minors but come in and be outstanding in the majors. So saying that Hochevar might be lights out in the minors isn’t saying much. He’s pitched poorly in the majors up to this point, it’s really that simple. My biggest question is why so many pitchers that have been struggling or might be putting up terrible numbers come into a game against the Jays and ‘pitch great’. They obviously didn’t ‘pitch great’ in their previous appearances, and usually don’t ‘pitch great’ in their appearances following (Lester is a perfect example of that). So why is it always against the Jays? Do they get extra pumped when facing the Jays for some strange reason that suddenly puts them ‘on’ their game? Who knows…but what I do know is that its incredibly frustrating to see from a fan’s point of view when a pitcher with horrible numbers comes in and totally shuts the lineup down.
by Icedragon on Jun 6, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how did doc do in his first 200 innings in the bigs?
…. how did lester pitch today vs. the best offense in baseball?
every ML pitcher has had a good outing sometime or another, and yes, it hurts when they have them vs the jays, although giving hill, barajas and rolen all a day off at once wasn’t very smart either.
by Andy Mc on Jun 6, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, I will cede your point. I guess its more the frustration talking when I see some no name pitcher who has been awful suddenly pitch awesome against the Jays, and my frustration often does the talking in those kinds of situations.
by Icedragon on Jun 6, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And also, its not like I’m jumping off the bandwagon or something, I should note. I still love the Jays and will continue to watch/enjoy them throughout the season, but there does come a time when we have to admit that the Sox and Yankees just flat out have better teams. No shame in admitting that.
by Icedragon on Jun 6, 2009 6:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not just yet, buddy.
A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...
PLAYOFFS!!!!1
by eyebleaf on Jun 6, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
I certainly agree that the Jays on paper don’t have the same talent that the Yankees and Sox do. However, that is far from saying it’s over. The Jays had almost the same differential as the Rays last season (actually a run better), and the Rays went to the world series. So, “on paper,” the Jays were as good as the AL representative in the world series. The games are played on the field and that’s what makes them fun. This season was always going to be an uphill struggle but sometimes you win those uphill battles, and when you do it is all the sweeter. So I totally agree with you there.
But I just don’t agree that one game using a b-team lineup against a pitcher who you don’t think is good proves that the team is or isn’t for real. When Casey Janssen beat the Red Sox for his first win in 2 years, did that prove that the Sox weren’t for real?
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Jun 6, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When they all have played 162 games
And we’re out, ya, I’ll admit it. But not until then. Unless we get mathematically eliminated earlier than that, I guess.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
by wroth91 on Jun 6, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
prematurely pulling the plug
well, lets consider the offense
key guys are struggling .. namely Hill, Rios and Wells. I do not think it is unrealistic to expect them to get better. Hill will most likely improve the most, followed by Wells and less so Rios (he is not struggling as bad as the other two and thus has less upside). If everyone else stays roughly at current levels than Jays are likely to remain at the top of the league in batting avg, hits, doubles and near the top in rbi, hr. It is more statistically likely that the Jays’ hitting will from here.
pitching is a bit different
starters – (1) Doc- nothing to talk about here; (2) Janssen- this is an issue. If he does not improve, he may have to be moved to the pen. Will Jays pull Cecil or Purcey back?; (3) Tallet – a bit volatile lately, but will probably settle out over rest of year; (4) Romero – getting better; (5) Richmond – this is an issue. He may have to improve or be moved.
So basically, Doc to stay same. Romero and Tallet likely to revert to normal performance levels.
Litsch could be gone for awhile and even if he came back, I would doubt if he will be effective this year.
Starting pitching outlook is mixed. 3/5 of the starting role is likely to stay the same or improve and 2/5 remains a question mark.
relief -
Camp has been improving lately. Carlson is still a bit inconsistent but not as bad as before. League improving. Downs still strong. Frasor still strong. Hayhurst could be an improvement and BJ is getting better. So the most reasonable expectation is that relief pitching should steadily improve as the season progresses.
Bottom line — hitting is more likely to improve over recent downturn, relief pitching is more likely to improve and 60% of the starting pitching should be flat to improved whilst 40% is uncertain. So most of the pieces are in place for improved results. Bottom line, it is premature to “admit” that the days will not be in the thick of it.
by aagoodfella on Jun 6, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, the reason I feel they are done is not so much that I don’t think they can do it, but rather the fact that every time in the past I’ve got my hopes up about a team winning, they have always, always let me down. So from past experience with every sports team I cheer for, I’ve come to be very skeptical when it comes to expecting my team will win. Obviously anything is still possible, but I’ve seen this kind of stuff enough times before, so its pretty hard for me to keep getting pumped when my teams stink in games they have no reason to.
by Icedragon on Jun 6, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oops that wasn’t supposed to be a reply to goodfella’s post.
by Icedragon on Jun 6, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Beej
did look good today.
A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...
PLAYOFFS!!!!1
by eyebleaf on Jun 6, 2009 7:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hochevar pitched well and Richmond didnt
You just needed to watch the game.
Yes the Jays didnt hit well today, but still, Hochevar pitched a much better game than Richmond. If you actually watched every pitch you could see that.
Greinke pitched terrible yesterday… just because his numbers are good doesnt mean he cant have a bad game.
Onions Baby Onions
by ohmybosh on Jun 6, 2009 7:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Greinke numbers might be boosted by AL central opposition
by aagoodfella on Jun 6, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nick johnson on trading block
we could probably get him for 2 pitching prospects..
then trade overbay or him later to a team needing a good fielding first baseman for a good hitting lefty outfielder or dh
or keep johnson and overbay and dh one or the other
by norm depalma on Jun 6, 2009 9:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like Johnson a lot
depending on what he would cost in terms of prospects, you could DH him and put Lind in left field everyday, returning Millar to a platoon role.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Jun 6, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nick Johnson is great at getting on base.
by Icedragon on Jun 6, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bad trade i think
Nick is having a career year – his numbers this year are way above his historicals so if he is on the block, it is probably a case of selling high by the Nationals
moreover, Nick is in a contract year – so he is likely only playing well to land a job next year
bottom line, Jays would be trading away long-term prospects to get a guy who is most likely out the door next year or likely to see a precipitous decline in output
pass – IMHO
by aagoodfella on Jun 6, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ice dragon is right
The Jays’ are done unless Cito stops managing like a drunk sea captain. He is so in love with Bautista and Millar it makes me vomit. Bautista should be sitting or batting very low in the order against righties. Millar was suppose to be a bench player but is now a permanent cog in the line-up. Move Overbay up to number 2 or 3 against righties. Play Inglett instead of Millar against Righties and JP should go out and get a power left-handed bat.
by purplebutz on Jun 6, 2009 10:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
games like today
It’s games like today, against the lowly Royals, taking away their shot at the sweep and the good home stand (with Halladay on the hill tomorrow), that make me wonder why I bother. I’m still on the bandwagon as I am year after year, but maybe Rios was onto something when he said: “Who geese a f**k.”
by REMO on Jun 6, 2009 10:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Games like today
Are the reason we’re headed for another third place finish. I try to be as optimistic as possible, but you simply can’t lose to a flat-out garbage pitcher like Hochevar. I understand pitchers are going to have the occasional bad innning like RIchmond had today, but the Red Sox or Yankees would probably have came right back with at least 4 the next inning against that sh*tballer. This series was all set up for a sweep after that great showing against Grienke last night, but now, even with a win tomorrow, we have little to no momentum heading into 4 games in Texas, where all Jays fans know we usually end up getting our genitals handed to us. It’s such a frustrating year because the potential is there, but I just don’t see it happening when we keep losing games like this one.
by snaptoit on Jun 6, 2009 10:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
did you watch the game … Hochevar is hardly a sh*tballer, heck, if the jays signed him, we should be happy
by aagoodfella on Jun 6, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fans like you piss me off
Im as pessimistic as they come, but for christs sake man watch the game.
Hochevar pitched well. He had some crappy starts but he put it all together in this one today… Thats like saying Halladay is a crap pitcher because when he was first called up he had an ERA of 10… so now every team he beats just sucks because he wasnt lights out in his first few games…
Youre ridiculous.
Onions Baby Onions
by ohmybosh on Jun 6, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Little to no momentum if we win tomorrow?
Your joking right? A series win and hopefully Doc’s 10th win on the year is not momentum?
Yeah Ok, Right. Good job
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it. - Dogbert
by JohnnyG on Jun 7, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately Hochevar is better than Richmond. I would trade Richmond and Ray and Purcey for Hochevar…Package them up like a Rogers bundle and ship them all out.
by BigTimeBlueJayFan on Jun 7, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it would be a good deal. Hochevar is more of top prospect then those 3, but in saying that, I don’t think its a deal that KC makes as he is going to be a big part of their rotation going forward.
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it. - Dogbert
by JohnnyG on Jun 7, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I pointed out before, just because a player has potential and is a great prospect doesn’t necessarily mean they are going to pan out. There’s been plenty of players in the past in every sport, and there always will be, who are predicted to be superstars and then they end up being awful and you forget all about them 3 or 4 years down the road. Not saying Hochevar will necessarily be like that, and he might turn out great, but I’m not at all impressed with his numbers in the bigs so far, so I’m not convinced that he’s great.
by Icedragon on Jun 7, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And about people comparing him to Halladay. There is no comparison at all. Look at Doc’s numbers. He already had a full (or near full) season under his belt in which he had great numbers before his disaster year in 2000. In other words, he had already lived up to expectations to a degree before faltering for a season. In 2000 the reason he had such bad numbers is because he had problems with his mechanics, that should be obvious with him walking 42 batters in just 67 innings. I don’t really see much comparison between that and Hochevar’s numbers. Halladay’s were so bad they were obviously caused by a problem. Hochevar’s last year in his first full season were awful but not so bad as to be obviously caused by a problem such as mechanics, rather to me just signs of a guy who is either having trouble adapting to the bigs or is below average in skill.
by Icedragon on Jun 7, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow your really not letting this one guy huh?
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it. - Dogbert
by JohnnyG on Jun 7, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I’m just being a realist. Pointing out the facts. I already said that Hochevar could very well turn out great, I’m just not convinced that he’s ‘all that’ as many of you seem to make him out to be at this point. He pitched one good game, is a top prospect, ok, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s going to carry that success to the majors. He may or he many not, so far he hasn’t. Only time will tell. There’s really nothing more to it than that.
by Icedragon on Jun 7, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I was arguing that he was a top prospect, So a good start isn’t completely out of Left field.
You were the one that said he was a Garbage pitcher.
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it. - Dogbert
by JohnnyG on Jun 7, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Momentum is tomorrow’s starting pitcher.”
by Brad Fullmer Fan on Jun 7, 2009 4:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
exactly
and in the Jays case, it’s Roy Halladay
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Jun 7, 2009 7:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you start measuring since the end of the 9 game skid, and Jays win today (assuming bats can support Halladay) — Jays go to 5-4 – or 556 win rate … still very much in the thick of it
by aagoodfella on Jun 7, 2009 7:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well they need to win…lets hope TB can sweep the Yankees, but then the Jays need to do their part and win as well so they can stay ahead of TB.
by Icedragon on Jun 7, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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