It Wasn't Me That Made Him Fall, No, You Can't Blame Me At All: Who is at Fault for All the Jays Pitching Injuries?
There has been a lot of discussion on the site recently about all of the pitching injuries the Blue Jays have sustained recently, so I thought it might be interesting to take a look at what could be causing them. In one of the comments to a recent fanpost, it was suggested that the Jays should start implementing "The Joba Rules" for some of the young arms, in order to keep their innings and pitch counts down. Will Carroll thinks that it may be J.P. Ricciardi's fault, not based on pitch counts or too many innings, but on some sort of "organizational philosophy," which I guess means that he doesn't automatically discount pitchers who have a non-zero probability of being hit by line drives or sneezing. Many folks have suggested that Brad Arnsberg or Cito Gaston are to blame as well.
In addition to nagging injuries, like Ricky Romero's strained oblique and Scott Richmond's shoulder tendinits, the Jays have seen several pitchers go down with long-term injuries in the last year or so. The serious injuries that Jays arms have sustained include both ligament-replacement or Tommy John surgery (Jesse Litsch, Shaun Marcum) and labrum fraying and tearing (Dustin McGowan and Casey Janssen). Looking farther back, even Roy Halladay has lost his share of playing time to injury, having suffered from numerous ailments ranging from a "tired throwing arm" in 2004 to a broken leg to appendicitis and finally a pulled groin this season. In part one of this two-part series, we will look at Dustin McGowan and Casey Janssen, who are recovering from shoulder injuries.
Well, each pitcher should really be evaluated separately on a case-by-case basis, so let's look at them individually. Tom Verducci of Sports Illustrated is of the opinion that an increase in workload of 30 innings is generally an acceptable amount amongst young starting pitchers, but an increase of more than 30 innings from one year to the next could spell serious trouble. Verducci's success-rate of pitchers that he projects as injury risks (under 25 years old and an increase in workload of 30+ innings) is quite good, but only if you do not limit his injury projection to a pitcher's arm and shoulder. Personally, I don't put much stock in an increase in workload causing an hip injury or slipping on ice, but that's just me.
Since Verducci had projected Dustin McGowan as a potential injury concern, let's start with him:
McGowan's innings pitched jumped signifcantly from 2006 to 2007, increasing from a total of 111 1/3 IP to 181 2/3 IP. This is, of course, a drastic increase and should raise eyebrows, particularly for a pitcher who has had Tommy John surgery before. McGowan did, however, finish the season quite strongly in '07. In August, McGowan struck out 30 and walked 9 over 32 1/3 innings. He didn't show any signs of trouble in September, either, striking out 41 and walking 13 over 40 1/3 innings. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers the gem he pitched against the Red Sox, when he struck out nine and didn't walk any, a game in which he threw a then-career-high 122 pitches. He was pretty ineffective afterwards in his last two times out, including in his next start when he threw 112 pitches over just 4 1/3 innings.
A prevailing theory on pitcher abuse relates to the number of pitches thrown over three starts (the idea being that a pitcher is not fully recovered each time out) and McGowan threw 333, 326 and 311 pitches over different two-week spans in 2007. He laboured a bit less in 2008, though he did throw 125 pitches in one game and 323 pitches over a span of three starts. A lot of people criticized John Gibbons for leaving his starters in too long (except Ted Lillly) and I'd say that McGowan's injury probably has something to do with a mishandling on the current Kansas City Royals' bench coach's part. While McGowan seemed strong late in 2007, he has not exactly been a picture (or pitcher, if you will) of perfect health throughout his career and it would have been wiser to treat him with kid-gloves, particularly as his potentially excellent career seemed like it was just taking off. Even if the increase in workload did not cause the labrum injury, it was excessively risky.
Casey Janssen, who begins his rehab tonight, split time as a starter between the minors (very effective) and majors (somewhat effective) in 2006, pitching a total of 136 2/3 innings. In 2007, he was moved to the bullpen, where he pitched quite effectively (3.89 FIP), though he was probably helped by an unsustainable 5.3% HR/Flyball rate. In 2007, Janssen pitched 72 2/3 innings, a pretty significant reduction from his total in 2006, but he did make 70 appearances, 11th most in the American League. Janssen had an excellent spring training in 2008 and was all set to re-enter the starting rotation when it was announced that he had torn his labrum shortly before the season began.
As far as misuse goes, there are two main possible reasons for Janssen's injury -- he was either overworked in his 70 appearances in 2007 (unlikely in my opinion, as starting is more stressful) or he had trouble readjusting to a starting role after a season in the bullpen (more likely in my opinion). Now, even if the second case is true, I am not of the opinion that it should be blamed on Jays management -- there are precedents for career-starters spending some time in the bullpen and then being moved back into the rotation and I don't think the Jays treated this situation any differently than I would have. Pitchers get injured sometimes -- that's just part of being a pitcher, the human shoulder is not made to throw a baseball -- some things are unavoidable.
So keep an eye out for Part 2, in which we'll look at Shaun Marcum and Jesse Litsch, our pitchers recovering from Tommy John surgery.
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Comments
Pitching is not an exact Science.
I really disagree that Arnsberg has anything to do with the injuries. To me pitching is not an exact science at all, if it was, everyone would have the same windup and delivery and throw the same pitches, because if it was a science the exact best way to pitch would be discovered and duplicated.
Every pitcher seems to have different abilities and techniques. No pitching coach in the majors is going to mess with someones mechanics unless it is a complete makeover. The players used those mechanics to get to the majors so they shouldn’t change anything.
If anything pitching coachs work more like a shrink for the pitchers, Keep their confidence up and give their egos a stroking every once in a while, They may be able to offer different tidbits of advice to help make a tweak here or there, but nothing major.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
To me it is a case by case basis.
Its part of the pitchers delivery in some situations, being thrown out there for too many innings in another situation and freak injuries in another situation.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
It's the position players' fault for not hitting with RISP.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
I Blame Jamie Campbell, the players are getting hurt on purpose to get away from his announcing.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
Also, it's Halladay's fault
Ever heard of imitatable acts?
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
I thought about the Halladay theory before
The Jays’ young pitchers have the best possible mentor possible in the Doc. Just follow his work ethic and you’ll become a very good pitcher, right? Well, not everybody has the physical makeup to imitate Mr. Halladay. When something breaks down on the Doc, all he has to do is send his part to the shop for a quick repair job, or get new replacement parts. That is not the case for us mere humans. So the young impressionable Jays’ pitchers follow this mentor, only to break down within a year or two. Look at Burnett – he tried to emulate Halladay during his first two years, only to become injured. Maybe during his 3rd year as a Jay, he learned to work within himself.
Of course this theory is likely not even remotely accurate. However, it’s about as far fetched, IMO, as blaming Arnsberg, JP, Cito or Gibby. It probably all has to do with coincidence. Or maybe, it’s not even that far from the reality of other teams’ injury situations.
As to us compared to other teams:
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/6/4/896616/dissecting-the-disabled-list-by
That’s from 2002-2008. A bit too large of a window for my tastes, but you can see that in that time we haven’t been as bad as we think in terms of pitching injuries…
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
Not sure if empircally we have suffered more injuries than other teams but...
the one thing i can see that might be a cause:
i have noticed (admittedly just anecdotal type evidence) that our pitchers’ pitches have more movement than other staffs’…and either breaking balls are more taxing on arms than fastballs (i believe that is so) and/or jays organization is emphasizing/teaching a certain type of breaking ball that other orgs eschew.
Injuries
In your examples it is pretty obvious that the McGowan instance can be blamed on the organization – whether you want to blame Gibbons for abusing his starters (which he did) or JP for not stepping in and shutting the kid down or putting him on an inning/pitch count that is up to you but in the end ‘the organization’ is to blame on that one – ESPECIALLY being that McGowan had a history of major injury.
As for Janssen – I disagree that starting is more stressful on an a pitcher, they tend to warm up quicker/harder which has to be more taxing on the body – they pitch more often thus warm up more often and when they are pitching they tend to not hold anything back and throw with everything they have on every pitch…I think the 70 appearances in 2007 were a problem for Janssen and that over use after 136 innings as a starter in ’06 were what eventually caused the shoulder issues. Again, the organization has to be held partly accountable for this, Gibbons for over using a young arm or JP for not stepping in and shutting him down, either way the one ultimately in charge is JP…
When it comes to the broken legs, or “sneezing” injuries or toe injuries or whatever else those are freak accidents and you really can’t hold anyone accountable for these…as they say stuff happens. When it comes to the labrums or the elbows the Jays seem to have had a large number of those injuries in past years and at some point someone has to wonder what makes Blue Jay pitchers more succeptable to these major injuries….in the end it has to be the guy at the top.
Seriously
JP sometimes comes of as very arrogant and can say some ridiculous stuff. If the Jays would have made the playoffs under his leadership once, nobody would complain. JP made some good moves and some bad ones over the years. This year he is actually quiet and did not overplay that good start (13 games over 500 and 31/2 over the nearest competition).
I just hope after the all star break, the jays hitters pretend that it is April again. I don’t understand how you can go from hitting ball and strike hard to hitting air.
if you could figure out the answer to that last question
you don’t get a job as a hitting coach. It’s the $64, 000 question, the totally right question for the moment.
Two words
Training staff. Why no one ever holds them under scrutiny, I’ll never know.
I don’t know how many people remember this but a few years ago, the Yankees suffered a rash of injuries early in the year and how did the team react? They fired most of the training staff because it was evident to them that whatever that staff was doing to prepare the players wasn’t working.
Yeah that is a possible answer as well, but I would have my doubts on it.
If all of the players had lazy legs and grew tired quickly then yeah sure fire away at the training and conditioning staff. But with a wide variety of injuries all over the place I think it is difficult to pin it down on any one person or area within the organization,
Wroth posted above, While our injuries situation sucks, other teams go through this too. It isn’t just us.
Injuries are a natural occurrence of playing baseball. As Tom pointed out the human arm was not evolved to throw a baseball, it can be an unnatural motion that puts a ton of strain on the muscles and ligaments.
That’s it, I’m blaming evolution (or God depending on your beliefs) on our injuries, If humans arms were built slightly different we wouldn’t have half of these problems!
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
I remember that Yankees firing
IIRC, they fired their recently hired head trainer/weight training coach (whichever term they called that). I believe there were a lot of rumors and anonymous quotes from Yankees players unhappy with the new guy as he convinced the team to shell out for a lot of new gym equipment that was not geared towards elite athletic training. He apparently shied away from some more of the elite “staples” of work outs (deadlifts, squats, oly lifts, etc…) and more towards stuff that you see in your typical weekend warrior’s regimen. At the time I wrote a blog article about it because it just seemed to absurd to hire the guy in the first place – he came on the recommendation of a “big box” gym and, if I understand it correctly, was not as well-versed in elite athletics as he should have been. Injuries increased in part due to his inadequate training program and so they cut him.
I don’t know about any of the other firings, but I would assume they were people that he brought with him.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
Janssen's appearance
for the GCL Jays was actually in relief yesterday. He pitched one inning. I’m not sure whether that means he’ll be brought back as a reliever, or whether they’re just easing him back into throwing by starting with a one-inning outing, but it’s something to keep an eye on.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
to answer my own question
Assistant GM Alex Anthopolous has confirmed that he is indeed coming back as a reliever.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Whats the point of killing our pitchers?
No way that any of young pitching prospects should be going over 7 innings. I would even say 6. Especially for a team that is going into rebuild mode.
well you stop pitchers at 6 innngs every game...
and add in days that guys don’t go 6 or we have extra innings and you are going to kill off your bullpen arms.
u r underestimating the league-meister
when he is on … he is untouchable. That is nice to have in the pen.
innings aren't a good measure anyway
because not all innings are created equal.
The other thing is that at some point you are going to need these young pitchers to start pitching deep into games. At that point, if they’re not used to it, that only heightens the chance of injury. I think the best thing you can do is have the pitching coach closely watching for signs of fatigue (overthrowing, leaving pitches up, etc) and pulling the pitcher at that point rather than trying to coax the rest of the inning out of him.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I think that they would learn how to pitch deep in the minors as apposed to having to do it when they make the show. But when we got AA guys skipping AAA (Because of injuries and or budget reasons) to pitch in the bigs. Its gonna cause some injuries some time down the road. It’s alot of stress the arm is not yet used to.
I mean I know he blew chunks. but it would it have been better to let Tomo Ohka blow his arm out instead on McGowen’s?
the minor league season is shorter
so you will never get the same number of starts or innings in a minor-league season.
I do think the Jays should be careful to restrict the innings of their young pitchers, don’t get me wrong. You have to take the long view and gradually built up a pitcher’s endurance. If Brett Cecil throws many more than 150 innings this season, I will be screaming my head off. But arbitrarily limiting it to 6 innings/start isn’t the answer. And bringing up a pitcher gradually doesn’t come close to ensuring they won’t suffer a catastrophic arm injury. Throwing a baseball at the speed and with the movement of a major-league pitch 100 times or more a game every 5 days for 7 months a year is highly unnatural and will lead to injuries, no matter what precautions you take.
I do think that predicting and minimizing major arm injuries down the road is a next frontier of sorts for player scouting, but I don’t think we’re anywhere close to understanding them yet. As of now, you get a lot of speculation, comments like “they must be doing something wrong,” and as-yet unsupported theories than anything else.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
BP says, at least
throwing isn’t bad for a pitcher’s arm, throwing while tired is bad for a pitcher’s arm. so if a guy throws 100 pitches, like Doc (seems to be the best example in this case) it probably doesn’t do anything to him at all. But if someone like Camp or Hayhurst came in and threw 100 pitches, you can be pretty sure that’s going to come back to bite you. But mostly I have to agree with siggian below… a lot of luck in play here.
(and sorry I haven’t been on in a while, lots of family business/computer problems)
Prehistoric Hoops - a neat little Raps blog
I generally agree
which is why I think that pitching coaches should be watching young pitchers very closely rather than arbitrarily limiting pitches or innings.
The truth is, there’s a lot more that goes in to “throwing while tired” than just the number of pitches a guy has thrown any one day. Things like the weather, pitch selection/variation, throwing from the windup v. stretch, rest in between innings, how many pitches the pitcher has thrown in his recent starts (since the evidence indicates that pitchers don’t totally recover between starts), nutrition, even random things like how much sleep the pitcher got the night before.
When I run, there are times when I feel awful after just a few miles for the rest of the run, and other times I feel great after 12 miles and don’t want to stop. Sometimes the cause is easy to pinpoint, other times it’s just one of those things.
So I think conditioning, awareness of the situation and close monitoring of the signs of fatigue is one of the best defenses (though not perfect) against pitching injuries, better than just arbitrarily setting limits (that haven’t been proven to be successful) for pitches and/or innings. I do think conditioning, flexibility and nutrition have a lot of good things to teach us about limiting those type of injuries as well, but that’s a personal opinion I can’t back up either.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
and by the way
welcome back! hope things are going okay now!
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Sometimes, stuff happens
The problem with blaming one guy or a bunch of guys is that removes luck from the equation. In pitching, you can mitigate against bad luck by having good mechanics, exercise properly, etc, but sometimes it doesn’t matter what you do, an injury occurs.
I think the Jays are in a stretch of bad luck as far as pitching goes. We’ve seen it happen before and we’ll see it happen again. Having said that, the Jays should certainly review everything they are doing with their pitchers to see if there is some way of reducing the chances of this happening again.
by siggian on Jul 14, 2009 12:30 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
great Bob Dylan reference by the way
Who Killed Davey Moore is an unknown Dylan gem
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
The slider is also said to be a tough pitch on the arm
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
yep, they are very similar pitches
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Heck just the act of throwing hurts my arm....
But that maaaaay be because of my flabby unconditioned exterior rather then the act of throwing itself….
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
I don't know
I’m not a pitcher, nor do I play one on TV but it seems to me that these guys are babied a little too much. Pitch counts are a relavively new phenomenon but players pitched a lot longer in “the good ol days”
My favourite Nolan Ryan Story from SI.com:
Every time Nolan Ryan took the ball — and he started 773 games in his epic career — you believed you might see a no-hitter. He threw seven no-nos in his career, but that Ryan could make the spectacular seem possible at any opportunity was a tribute to the ferocity of his pure stuff. Nobody ever threw harder and longer than the Ryan Express. He struck out 10 batters in a game 215 times. Of course, he also walked 10 batters in a game twice, including a kind of signature game June 14, 1974, when he did both: 10 walks and 19 strikeouts in a 13-inning complete game victory, 4-3, over the Red Sox. He faced 58 batters in that start; half of them either walked or struck out.
Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.
by craig in calgary on Jul 14, 2009 3:52 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah but Nolan was special...
And he didn’t start at 250 innings in a year. There is no end to the list of guys like Mark Fidrych who had one good year, where they had him completing game after game and he never pitched well again.
Go back a little further and you have stories of pitchers pitching both games of a double header. With the money tied up in players now, no one is going to check to see if they have the 1 in 50 type pitcher that can do 300 innings in a season anymore.
Exactly
For every Nolan Ryan there was probably 50-100 pitchers who couldn’t shoulder that load. We just always remember those top tier pitchers because, well, they were top tier, exceptional, elite, unique, or special – whatever you want to call it. The average pitchers of that era don’t get plaques in Cooperstown nor are they held up as examples of what pitchers today should be.
And ya, with the money invested in these players and the mountain of anecdotal evidence that indicates that lots of innings by pitchers = break downs, then why would teams risk it just to find their diamond in the rough?
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby

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