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Halladay Sportsnet Interview: Time to Consider Alternatives


Sportsnet Connected interview is showing Roy Halladay saying that there is a time in one's career where you have to "take a chance" and go for the brass ring - this implies, Roy would contemplate a trade. Roy continued that a trade of his services might be a good move for the organization. Lastly, the scrolling message at the bottom of the screen indicated that Roy estimated his chance at a trade as 50-50.

The writing is on the wall and a Roy trade is likely. The Jays find themselves in a favourable position with a strong pipeline of new pitchers to fill starting roles. Certainly Romero and Rzepczynski have recently proven themselves very effective. Cecil has proven he can win, despite some recent inconsistency. Meanwhile Richmond and Marcum should soon be ready to step up. Although a minority view, I think Mills could mature into a good starter. Ray could be a starter. The Jays have many options.

So, Roy is likely on the way out. He has made a great contribution to the organization but at this time, the immediate goals of the Jays and Halladay may not be perfectly alligned. If Roy must go, let us wish him well. He has given a lot to the Jays and much to the city.

Now what can the Jays get? I think I read a rumor somewhere that the Cards said they will give Toronto a list of their prospects, the Jays can circle five in exchange for Roy. That could be nice.

Alternatively, can the Jays secure an immediate impact player? If so, the Jays should ensure it is a player under a long term contract of at least 4 years or more.

Lastly, if VW agrees, and mostly due to economics, could the team tie Roy and Wells together in the trade to escape an unfortunate contract? Vern we love ya, but $20M a year may be just too much for The Big Smoke to digest -- perhaps it is more palable to the Big Apple, City of Angels, City of Brotherly Love or the Windy City.

In any case, it looks like we should all be preparing ourselves for the possibility that Roy may be departing. There may be only about 8 (=81*0.5 / 5) more Halladay-Jay starts at Rogers.

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That rumour was in regards to the Phillies and was a quote from someone that was supposedly an insider source. But other rumours are that they won’t chase Halladay if they sign Pedro. It wasn’t really a deal but rather a quote, the quote was if I were (insert Phillies GM here) I would hand JP our minor league rosters and tell him to circle 5 names.

Although Between Keith Law and some other places on MLBTradeRumours it is looking less and less likely that Halladay is traded this season (Maybe in the offseason, who knows).

A lot of teams are trying to tell the Jays that their top prospects are off limits, which is basically making the Jays go, Fair Enough, see you later.

As for Wells, Yes I would love to dump that much salary, but in doing that you are basically forfeiting any prospects you get back for Halladay. And If you are trading Halladay just to dump Wells, I can’t see how that helps our team at all. Wells may be overpaid but is any replacement player we plug in going to do better? Trading Wells with Halladay for a salary dump doesn’t really help our team in my opinion.

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 13, 2009 7:02 PM EDT reply actions  

I think these quotes were taken from Roy in St. Louis at the all-star break.

by aagoodfella on Jul 13, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes the quotes are from Roy, I was specifically referring to the rumour that you stated about the Cards.

But now that I look into it, …. it was a Cards source. I’ll be be damned. Sorry about that you were right.

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 13, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right about it being from the Cards.

It still was a rumour from someone inside the organization saying what they would do, not an actually offer.

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 13, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep, i prefaced it as rumour … i would not attribute undue reliance upon it fer sure

by aagoodfella on Jul 13, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

err I think Im saying this wrong sorry AA,

What I meant is that it wasn’t an actually rumour that it was just someone inside the organization saying it as if, “If I were in charge I would do X”. It would be like if a Scout for the Jays said the same thing.

Aside from that one quote I don’t think I have heard anything about the Cards.

The main ones I was reading about were the Phillies, Rangers and Angels.

Although does anyone know what the Cards have in terms of prospects? Do they have what we need?

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 14, 2009 7:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think I read a rumor somewhere that the Cards said they will give Toronto a list of their prospects, the Jays can circle five in exchange for Roy.

I wonder if this is attributable more to their respect for Roy or their disrespect for JP. I don’t have any confidence in JP to pick the right pieces and I wouldn’t be surprised if many rival GMs feel the same.

Alternatively, can the Jays secure an immediate impact player? If so, the Jays should ensure it is a player under a long term contract of at least 4 years or more.

Um, no. Haven’t we learned anything from all the problems we’ve had with Ryan, Wells, Rios, etc. etc.? Long-term contracts are millstones around our necks as a small-market team. We have way too many overpaid guys as it is; we can’t afford to have anyone else chewing up “cap space” (I know there’s no cap in baseball; see below) and not producing (and there’s always a risk of this with any long-term deal). Imagine we end up with another Wells on our hands and then in 2-3 years when we’re ready to make a run and need to acquire the last few pieces, there’s no money in the till.

If anything I would be more inclined to get guys with expiring contracts or at least no more than 3 years. If they earn the money we can re-up them; if not, dump them before they get the chance to affect our long-term future and spend the money elsewhere.

Besides, what’s the point in getting an immediate impact player if we’re no longer competitive over the next few years? If we want to maximize our chances of winning now we should keep Halladay. I can’t think of anyone else who would have as much short-term impact as him, except maybe Pujols and I’m pretty sure he’s not available.

Maybe this should be a separate post, but I think the Jays (and basically every other MLB team apart from the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox and maybe Angels) could learn a lot from studying how NBA teams manage the salary cap. At first blush it’s pretty odd to see superstars getting traded for guys who are about to retire, have career-threatening injuries, or simply have lost all effectiveness, but that’s how important cap space is. If Rogers is going to give JP (or, hopefully, his replacement) a hard number and force him to come in under that, I’d rather give Halladay and Wells away for a bag of balls and have the extra $35M/year to spend on free agents.

$35M/year = 1 superstar and 1 very good player, proven commodities acquired through free agency
5 unproven prospects = 1 becomes a very good player (possibly a superstar but no guarantees), 1 other is a John McDonald type, and the other 3 never make the majors

Oh, and if the 1 very good prospect is a pitcher, he probably blows his arm out after a year with Toronto anyway. I have no idea whose fault all these injuries are but they’re pretty clearly systemic. I’d rather buy pitchers who were developed through someone else’s sytem at this point.

I think Halladay’s comments pretty much point to him being gone after next year, and I don’t blame him at all. Realistically I don’t think the Jays can compete with the current iterations of the Yankees and Red Sox, particularly not with all these crappy contracts. I do think that competitive balance can and will change over the next several years but by that time Roy will be way past his prime (I’m sure winning a Series period would make him happy, but given the choice he’d probably rather do it now when he is dominant than when he is 42 and throwing junk up there) and there are no guarantees that the breaks will go our way. So, assuming he is gone, there are three choices:

1) let him go for 2 draft picks (horrible, might as well get nothing);
2) get 4 or 5 prospects with a likely mediocre return as above;
3) ship him off with Wells or Rios, get a ton of cap relief, use this to sign a couple of top-tier free agents in a few years when we are close.

I’m not saying a good farm system isn’t essential—unless you’re the Yankees you obviously can’t stock your team exclusively with free agents (and even the Yankees did develop a few of their best guys, notably Jeter and Rivera). But I do think that if you’re trading a proven commodity you should get a proven commodity in return—in our case and right now given that we’re out of the playoff picture, that proven commodity is money.

by voodoomusic on Jul 13, 2009 8:08 PM EDT reply actions  

competitiveness

well, i am not as convinced that the Jays are as uncompetitive as you think they are

I think the lineup as it is now, is performing well enough at many positions to be WS competitiveness

but the fact remains that the Jays are comparatively strong in pitching and need more bats … i would not want to see Roy traded for more arms … the Jays seem to have enough for now and drafted more this year

the Jays do need more bats and fielders and should be looking to receive comparable playing caliber for position roles that they current hold in pitching for Halladay

by aagoodfella on Jul 13, 2009 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Roy also said he wants to win that ring in TORONTO.
He loves it here and doesn’t want to go anywhere. Management knows that, the blockbuster deal isn’t going to come, therefore JP adds something, an arm a bat in the second half and beefs it up a bit. We aren’t out of the race yet.
If we take a wild card, this whole Roy leaving thing is Moot.

by Hepcat1979 on Jul 13, 2009 10:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Hey...

optimism isn’t allowed around here…..

by Tom Dakers on Jul 13, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Optimisim is great, but not blind faith which is what it seems that some have…I’m a lifelong Jay fan and always want to see them do better but at some point realism needs to play into the equation. With where the Jays are now, and where they have been for the last 7.5 years they aren’t going to win the AL East or the Wildcard, they aren’t even going to compete for it in August/September (which at this point would be enough for me to keep my hopes up)

There comes a time when you need to do something different because the way things are just aren’t getting it done…in this JP thinks that trading his ace is the way to change things up, I don’t disagree for both the team and for Roy that this makes sense but in the end the organization should step in and show that there way of changing things is by going with a new GM

by bunner on Jul 13, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

While I would love to be optimistic the unfortunate reality is that we are out of the race in 2009. It happened quickly, but it happened. We don’t have the arms and we aren’t getting them. If you were to predict the standings at the start of the year for the all-star break you would say Yanks (wild card), Red Sox, Angels and someone in the central. In the NL I would have said Phillies, Brewers, LA and some wild card team. Essentially that is what we have now. The cream has risen. Money talks.

The point is you can be optimistic, you just can’t always be optimistic or you are fooling yourself.

I am optimistic for a playoff spot in 2010 or 2013 which ever one they choose to go after. I am optimistic about some of our young guys. I am optimistic we’ll get a blockbuster deal for Halladay. I am hopeful we can dump wells and his fat salary. I am not optimistic that the Giants will reconsider the Lincecum-Rios deal.

by BigTimeBlueJayFan on Jul 14, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

We don't have the arms?

The only thing that’s been holding us back is situational hitting.

They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.

by Torgen on Jul 14, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

We would have to pass 6 teams

Including the Yankees and Rays.

I’m all for optimism, but I don’t think there’s an arm or a bat out there that can make the difference between 14 games over .500 and 2 games under it.

The Jays have 72 games left. To match the Yankees’ projection (based on their current winning percentage) they would have to go 49-23.

While playing a huge percentage of their games against the Red Sox, Yankees, and Rays, of course.

I love the Jays and would be very happy to be proven wrong on this, but I would suggest that anyone who thinks they’re going to go 49-23 after watching the past two months is maybe not coming at this from an entirely rational standpoint.

by voodoomusic on Jul 13, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

That'll be the rub innit?

If the Jays do get back into contention this year, it will be by climbing over the teams in their division that are ahead of them. I think that the glimmer of hope (or shadow of doom, depending on your view) is that we do have so many games left against teams ahead of us.

Not saying that it’s likely as seen by our recent struggles against the Rays/Yanks/Sox, but it is something to consider. Every win against those teams is a loss for them… (duh!)

I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby

by wroth91 on Jul 14, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

And my only worry right now

Is that if Doc gets traded this season, it had better be AFTER the Seattle series. Though isn’t the deadline the 31st? Cutting it mighty close…

I would hate my life if I drive down to see the Jays and find out the I won’t get to watch Halladay because he just got traded….

I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby

by wroth91 on Jul 14, 2009 1:49 AM EDT reply actions  

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