Top 50 All-Time Jays: #5 Lloyd Moseby
by Tom Dakers on Jul 15, 2009 2:30 AM EDT
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PrintLloyd Anthony Moseby | CF | 1980-1989
Notable Accomplishments: Silver Slugger 1983, All-Star 1986
Lloyd Moseby was born November 5, 1959 in Portland, Arkansas. He was drafted in the first round, second overall, of the 1978 amateur draft out of Oakland high school. The number one choice that year was Bob Horner and number three was Hubie Brooks. Also chosen in the first round that year was Kirk Gibson.
We were a pretty lousy team back then and Moseby was rushed thru the minors in two years though he did hit .300 and slugged .500 in his couple of seasons in the minors. He was called up to the Jays in late May of 1980. He was just 20 and over-matched in the majors. But like I said we weren't a very good team back then and we kept him in center field. We weren't exactly crawling with great prospects so we could afford to keep him on the roster. For his first 3 season he didn't hit better than .236.
Lloyd's 4th season with the Jays, he finally learned to hit, having a terrific .315/.376/.499 line. He scored 104 runs (becoming the first jay to score 100 in a season), hit 18 homers and stole 27 bases. He won the Silver Slugger award and he received some MVP votes. He was 5th in runs scored and 6th in batting average and had a then team record 21 game hit streak.
He had another good season in 1984, hitting .280/.368/.470. He led the league in triples with 15 and stole 39 bases. Scored 97 runs and drove in 92. He got some MVP votes again. As Bill James said at the time, his strengths were "hitting for power, hitting for average, range, throwing, base running, patience as a hitter. Weaknesses none." Course he also thought that he would win a MVP award and that part didn't happen.
In 1985 his batting average dropped to .259, but he still walked 76 times, had 18 homers, scored 92 runs and stole 37 bases. 1985 was our first playoff year, we lost out to Royals, Lloyd didn't have a good series, hitting just .226 in the 7 games. He did score 5 runs and drove in 4. 1986 wasn't his best year either hitting .253/..329/.418, but he still scored 89 runs and drove in 86, with 21 homers and 32 steals. With great range even in a down year he was a useful player. He made the All-Star team.
1987 was a bounce back year, he had a very good season setting career highs in runs 106, homers 26, RBI 96 and tied for his top season in steals with 39. He hit .282/.358/.473. Lloyd had a small part in baseball history on September 14 when he had a homer in a game where the Jays set a major league record hitting 10 in the game.
His last couple of seasons with the Jays were slowed some by injuries to back and legs (the hard playing surface in Toronto didn't do him any good, he likely would have had a longer career if he played on grass) and he was being pushed out of center field by prospect Junior Felix. His last season with the Jays was 1989 and we made the playoffs again that year. Lloyd did well in our 5 game loss to the A's, hitting .313/.476/.500 with a homer.
After the season he signed with the Detroit Tigers as a free agent. He had two not very good seasons with the Tigers and then went to Japan to play for the Yomiuri Giants for two years to finish off his career. He coached first base for the Jays in 1998 and 1999.
Moseby was part of the Jays outfield that was thought to be the best outfield of the 80's with George Bell and Jesse Barfield. He had terrific range, he had to with George Bell playing beside him and a decent arm. He never won a Gold Glove but likely should have had at least a couple of them. He had the longest career, with the Jays, of any of the three of them.
He was one of those players who did everything well but nothing so great that he got the attention his outfield teammates got. Unfortunately for him most fans at the time only focused on batting average. He had good power, he hit for a decent average, took a lot of walks, had good speed, your basic 5 tool player. When he left the Jays he was the team career leader in games played, runs, hits, doubles, total bases, stolen bases and sac flies. On a team that platooned a lot he played against both lefties and righties and didn't have huge splits.
Rob Neyer in the ‘Big Book of Baseball Lineups' had Lloyd as our best CFer in team history and Bill James had him as the 71st best center fielder in baseball history in his ‘New Historical Abstract'. Moseby got the nickname Shaker for his ability on the basketball court. At 6'3" and 200 pounds he was a terrific athlete. And he was also the subject of a rap song, Shaker's Rap, which you can find on the internet if you really want.
Once, in a game against the White Sox, he successully stole second base, and the throw from the catcher went into centerfield. However, shortstop Ozzie Guilen faked him out by acting as if the ball had been popped up. Thinking that he was about to be doubled off of first, he ran back there instead of taking the extra base. The centerfielder threw in to first - and the ball went into the dugout. Moseby made it back safely to second, having run 270 feet to go 90 feet.
He was a fun player to watch, happy guy.
Lloyd Moseby's place among Blue Jay batting Leaders:
Game played: 3nd 1392
At bats: 2nd 5124
Runs Scored: 2nd 768
Hits: 3rd 1319
Doubles: 4th 292
Triples 2nd 60
Home Runs: 6th 149
RBI: 5th 651
Walks: 547
Stolen Bases: 1st 255
Runs Created: 3rd 745
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I'm a huge Moseby fan
he was a great player who did it all really well. But it is amazing to see how his effectiveness tapered off in his late 20s and early 30s. Some might be the turf, sure, but I’m surprised the Jays didn’t take a longer look at Moseby’s career arc before offering a big-money deal taking Vernon Wells, a rather similar player, into his mid-30s.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Yeah know, I think I had that Donruss card from 90. I had a binder full of them. I switched to Upper Deck in the next couple of years before I stopped collecting though…..
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
I've got to question the criteria behind this top 50 list
Ok, the title in the sidebar says “Top 50 All-Time Greatest Jays”, but Moseby is listed as #5 - ahead of players that most would definitely concede were greater Jays than him- Bell, for instance. Sure, Moseby had more regular seasons with the Jays than Bell, but he also had more poor seasons — in 4 out of his 9 seasons with 400+ PA, he hit in the 230s or lower. Bell never had a single full season below 260. The point is, even with generally poor statistical averages, over a 162 game schedule, even poor players accumulate stats.
I understand what you’ve mentioned before — ‘this list is determined for the most part by career totals as a Jay’. And that cuts to the heart of what I feel is wrong with this list — you can’t assess greatness on the basis of team career totals.
This isn’t my list, but if it were, I’d do one of two things: retitle it “Top 50 Jays Career Stats Statistical Leaders”, or reorder it based on a criteria more representative of greatness with a single ballclub. Put simply, I would assess greatness on the number of great seasons, while factoring in individual achievements (ie. Cy Young award), and notable contributions as a Jay (ie. Alomar’s home run off of Eckersly in the 92 playoffs).
I disagree with you on this one, Dirk
Moseby was underrated because he did everything well, but nothing exceptionally well. George Bell was overrated because he was a one-dimensional player. Here is a quick breakdown:
Moseby played CF, which is a pretty tough position, and played it extremely well, especially when he was young. Bell played LF, one of the easiest positions, and played it poorly.
Also, Moseby’s batting averages may have been low, but he drew walks.
For example, during their tenure as Blue Jays, Moseby was actually better at getting on-base than Bell (even including his decline and growth phases). Moseby’s OBP was .333 and Bell’s was .325. Obviously Bell slugged more.
Accounting for defence, Moseby was a much better player than Bell.
Additionally, by the way, most of Bell’s value as a player overall was accumulated while he was a Jay. According to Sean Smith’s Wins Above Replacement, Lloyd Moseby accumulated 24.1 WAR over his career (6.2 in his best season). Bell accumulated 18.2 (5.0 in his best season). In fact, in three years outside the Jays organization (one with the Cubs and two with the White Sox), Bell was worth a total of -1.5 wins.
There are plenty of players who were good before and after they played for the Jays (Clemens, Alomar, etc.), but a. Bell was not one of them
b. Who cares what they did outside the Jays? This is a Jays website and we are honouring our players. Additionally, how do “individual achievements,” make a player’s contribution more meaningful? They can be indicators of how good you were, but should we say that Jim Konstanty was a better pitcher than Bert Blyleven because he won an MVP award?
and c. if you don’t like the criteria Tom uses when he draws up his lists, you’re free to make up your own.
However, if you are going to draw up a list where George Bell ranks higher than Moseby, you’d better call it “Top 50 All-Time Jays Hitters”
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
by jessef on Jul 17, 2009 7:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh, and as far as having bad seasons increases a player's value,
It doesn’t. The idea behind replacement level is basically that if the player is so bad that a career AAA player would be better, he begins to accumulate negative stats. For the first three seasons of his career, Moseby’s batting was actually below replacement, but he was able to overcome that in ’81 and ’82 by playing a good Centrefield.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
VORP isn't perfect
Tom’s never said (that I’m aware of) that he uses VORP as the primary criteria for this list. He has mentioned that he uses career stats, which you can still rack up with a long, mediocre career.
VORP is interesting, but it’s a bit flawed in that the bar is set so low that a player would have to really suck in order to get a negative score. In other words, a player can easily have a below average season, and still break even or get a small pos VORP value.
A more useful metric for what we’re discussing would be Value over Average Player. An average big league player would have a higher replacement value than a AAA callup.
by TenaciousDirk on Jul 17, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
VARP
… or anything like it doesn’t yet exist, to my knowledge.
by TenaciousDirk on Jul 17, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
My example may not have been the best one...
I concede that the relative value of Bell over Moseby is debatable, especially given that Bell’s defence paled in comparison to Moseby’s. Sure, Moseby did a lot of things fairly well — and managed to accumulate a very respectable VORP — but aside from a couple seasons, I don’t remember him as being all that great. I do remember him sucking rather badly during his last couple seasons as a Jay.
All that said, you’ve cast some doubt on my example, but the point still stands… you can’t assess greatness merely on the basis of team career totals. Note that I never said anything about considering contributions made before or after a player’s career as a Jay. The thing is, a player can accumulate respectable team career numbers while stringing together a number of mediocre seasons. So what makes a greater Blue Jay: someone who hung around for a dozen seasons as an average contributor? Or someone who put together all star numbers for five seasons?
A far better example would be Kelly Gruber vs. Ed Sprague. Gruber: before his body gave out, he was a fantastic hitter and defensive third baseman. Sprague: average defense, and below average offense for his position. On the list, however, Sprague’s a bit higher than Gruber.
“if you don’t like the criteria Tom uses when he draws up his lists, you’re free to make up your own.”
Why the snark? In my post I even say “This isn’t my list”. The whole fun of these lists is that we can debate them.
That said — while I know full well this isn’t my list — isn’t this a Jays community site? While Tom’s been doing the work of crafting the list and doing all those write ups (which I greatly respect), as participants in this Jays community can’t we discuss this stuff??
by TenaciousDirk on Jul 17, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry if that came across as snarky
I didn’t mean it to be (I wrote that early this morning and have been weaning myself off of coffee). What I meant was that I would like to see who would be above Moseby on your list. Moseby was a very good player. We don’t have many guys who’ve done more for this team than him.
As far as who contributes more, an average player for 10 seasons or an All-Star for five seasons, that all really depends. A lot of a player’s value is tied up in being average. Wouldn’t an average player instead of Kevin Millar or David Dellucci for 10 years help the Jays more than an All-Star over an average player for five years?
As far as “discussing this stuff” you did say, “you can’t assess greatness on the basis of team career totals,” that really doesn’t leave much room for discussion. All I did was disagree with you — vehemently, perhaps — and show you reasons why.
As far as Gruber vs. Sprague, that is one I agree with you on. Sprague played in a very high run-environment (let’s give it a nicer-sounding name, how about “The Steroids Era”) whereas Gruber played in a very low run environment. I never said that there weren’t places where I disagree with Tom.
And I think a large part of what I said was a knee-jerk reaction to the idea that Bell was a better player than Moseby.
Sorry again if what I said came off as snarky, I didn’t mean it that way and of course we can discuss this all.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
"how do "individual achievements," make a player’s contribution more meaningful?"
The following were some great moments in the history of the Jays franchise:
- Bell’s MVP award
- Hentgen and Halladay’s Cy’s
- Stieb’s no hitter
- Carter’s WS-winning HR
- Olerud’s batting title
This is memorable — meaningful — stuff that goes beyond stats. All thes moments, and many others I haven’t listed, had a big impact on the Jays and the fans. To my mind, that’s got to be an important factor in the whole greatness debate.
I think it really depends on the achievement
For example, Bell was not the most valuable player so he should not have won the MVP. I don’t think he should receive credit on this list, simply because some baseball writers voted incorrectly.
Hentgen and Halladay both deserved Cy Young Awards, so I understand taking that into account. Stieb’s no-hitter was obviously deserved, plus I think he probably deserved at least one Cy.
Carter’s homer was great, but that highlight is already shown all the time. Add in the fact that for three of the seven years he was a Jay he played terribly (below replacement level) AND blocked Shawn Green and his value is diminished.
By the way, you’ve failed to mention the one player who would benefit most from having a brief but excellent stint with the club. What about the back-to-back Cy Young Awards that Roger Clemens won?
I think the idea here is that when a player actually does something great, Tom does take that into account (read the Clemens writeup). But it doesn’t make sense to give someone credit for an oversight that the BBWAA makes.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Bell had a monster season
It was basically between him and Trammell, and while Trammell was higher in BA, Bell destroyed him in HR and RBI. Bell also had a terrible relationship with the press, unlike Trammell, which probably cost him votes and made the vote closer than it should have been. The traditional criteria for determining the MVP may be flawed in assessing a player’s true value — I agree — but Bell’s award is not inconsistent with how the writers have traditionally voted.
Bottom line, Bell’s MVP was a source of pride for many Jays fans.
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