Halladay to the Yankees.
by bklynyank on Jul 16, 2009 4:38 PM EDT
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Printyankee fan here (i come in peace lol)
This is becoming a major debate in yankeeland, if the Yankees traded for Halladay they would obviously need to trade either Joba or Hughes. Some don't want to give up Joba and the same goes for Hughes.
Lets just say a trade does happen between the Yanks and Jays, who would you prefer to recieve in that trade, Joba Chamberlain or Phil Hughes?
(obviously this is all rhetorically speaking and obviously other prospects beside joba/hughes would need to be involved in the trade)
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Ugh,
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
Oops
Hit post before I was done.
I meant to put:
UGH:
If you are going to make me choose I would take Hughes. Joba looked great out of the pen but really really weak in the starting rotation, I am not exactly sold on either as I think they maaaay get overvalued a bit by the media as they are NY prospects, but that can be said of any team and their own prospects.
So I would prefer Hughes but in all honesty I don’t see a deal being made to the Yanks
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
I do!!!
Let them take Halladay and Wells.
We get Hughes, Jesus Montero, Plus a outfield or Shortstop prospect (a good one)
It solves a huge problem in Wells for us and it is an upgrade for the yanks over Melky and that singles hitter.
Isn’t Montero their top prospect?
So we want them to take our albatross of a contract, And give us their best young pitcher and their best prospect plus two more prospects (which you stipulate to be good, which to me means a BA Top 100 ish type of guy)
Sorry mate, but in forcing any team to take on Well’s contract which has about 100Mil left means we have to take less back, not more or the same.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
Yes
They have the money, Wells is better than 2/3rds of their current Outfield and they get the best pitcher in baseball. Why would they not make that trade, it gives them a fantastic shot at the World Series for the next 2 years.
Halladay, Sabathia, Burnett, Pettite for a Post Season rotation would be a force!
by canadiancolts on Jul 16, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
The point still stands that if any team takes Wells and the Yanks could, we aren’t getting as many pieces back. Plain and simple, you are asking a team to take on 100Mil in salary over the next 5 years for a declining player.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
Sorry dude, there’s no way in hell I trade Doc. Not this year. We’ve had too much bad luck this year with injuries to our pitching staff, and we’ve had just generally bad luck for the last few weeks with a LOT of one-run losses. Doc stays at least this year.
by Blue and White Expat on Jul 16, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions
Why?
I would trade him in a heartbeat. If you really think we are going to compete next year I think you are mistaken. We won’t re-sign scoot cause there is no money cause of Halladay, Wells, Rolen, Rios, Overbay, don’t forget BJs money this means we are down a bat. The rookies in the rotation will be hard pressed to repeat numbers next year plus we are all working on the assumption that Marcum comes back healthy and some of us maybe thinking Mcgowan too. Add all that up plus we play in a division with the Yanks and Red Sox we have a slim chance of getting to the post season next year.
Also his trade value will never be higher than right now (the arms available over the winter, and that if he is traded next year that team only gets 1/2 a season). I say blow the thing up now is the time to trade for prospects and secure them long term at a reasonable price. Trade Rolen, Overbay, Scutaro, Rios, Wells, Frasor, and Halladay.
by canadiancolts on Jul 16, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Scoot is going to be a type A free agent
If he leaves through free agency, we get two first round draft picks, which is more than we’d get in a trade. If nobody wants to lose their draft pick to sign him (because they don’t think he’s actually this good) then we have no competition for him and can bring him back fairly cheaply. In either case, there’s no way the team should trade him.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
Didn't know
Good point. How does one become a type A vs. type B? Is it a comparison of how much you sign for in relation to everyone else at your postion?
by canadiancolts on Jul 16, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Type A is the top 17% of players at your class of positions in your league for the last 2 years
where the classes are 1B/OF/DH, 2B/3B/SS, C, SP, and RP.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
And securing prospects long term at a reasonable price is exactly what the team did with Hinske
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
True
But it is going to work out well with Hill, Rios on the other hand only time will tell (but I bet not).
by canadiancolts on Jul 16, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Both had more service time than Hinske when they extended
Ryan Braun and Evan Longoria are the best recent comparisons.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
...
I think we would both agree those are going to work fantastically for the teams involved.
by canadiancolts on Jul 16, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
They both have plenty of time to get fat
The Hinske one seemed like it was going to work out great too.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
I mean, at least Hinske was average defensively at third his rookie year
Braun was a butcher.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
We’ve already blown the team up before, to no avail. We have the rotation, especially if Marcum/McGowan come back healthy, and Romero continues to do … well… what he’s been doing, to shut down any team in baseball most days. We have the batting potential, most of the time, to put enough runs on the board – in general – to support the work that we’ve seen from those four pitchers over their time starting with us, and we have the bullpen to finish the job.
Failing that, we are literally one solid bat away – and we have a couple of solid prospects in the minors cough Travis Snider cough – who should be ready for next year as well. Next year, if we aren’t going to compete, and won’t have the money to re-sign him, then trade him as a rental player to the Yanks for their prospects – give them another series, and go from there.
by Blue and White Expat on Jul 17, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Truth be told
If Doc gets traded, a premium would have to be added to go to the Sox or Yanks. JP obviously doesn’t want to get traded within the division, you’d have to pony up Joba Chamerlain, Jesus Montero, AND Austin Jackson.
I’ll take that trade all day.
Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.
by craig in calgary on Jul 16, 2009 5:31 PM EDT reply actions
Don't put words in my mouth, you're not my wife ;-)
That would probably be a deal breaker. Plus, I don’t think I could handle trading VW to the godless Yankees only for him to have a break out year and hit 40 bombs, knocking in 120.
Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.
by craig in calgary on Jul 16, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Where the hell is Tom, Hugo, and Jesse?
On a BBB writers retreat?
Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.
by craig in calgary on Jul 16, 2009 5:37 PM EDT reply actions
Heh Guess so.
Off Days for everyone I guess.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
Don't think any of us want to have to seriously entertain
the idea of Halladay donning the pinstripes.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
why would we want Joba?
Hughes, maybe if quite a lot else was thrown in
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
plus
I do not think the point of trading Halladay would be to get more pitching back
the Jays have enough pitching prospects in house to develop. The team needs position players and a catcher.
ideally you'd want both
a young position player to improve the offense and save the team some money, and a young pitcher with top-of-the-rotation upside to replace Doc
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I think you'd have to throw both names in there to get a response.
No way the Jays do it for either/or.
If JP wants to keep his job he won’t be trading Halladay to the Yankees. Sorry. I don’t want those bums either.
by BigTimeBlueJayFan on Jul 16, 2009 11:49 PM EDT reply actions
Honestly
I just don’t think that the Blue Jays are going to get this gigantic mega-offer come down the pike. I mean, you can claim posturing from teams right now, and in the end, all it takes is two to create a market. But who’s out there to give up this huge package? The only team that really seems like it could go all-in would be Philly. I’m still baffled at the idea of the Dodgers trading Kershaw – don’t see why they would when he’s broken out and is having a superb season. I know the Giants have been mentioned, but color me skeptical that a team with huge hitting needs would pursue another starter. Cubs? Don’t have the money (the talent matches up better than anyone would give credit for, though, with a top shortstop prospect, a top SP prospect, a top 3rd base prospect … that said, as a Cubs fan, much as I love Halladay, I wouldn’t strip the system for 1.5 years of him). Cardinals? Look, their system is solid, but it’s a tad overrated. Wallace is good, Kozma is nice, but their pitchers are all very iffy. Once you get into 3 team territory, it becomes far more complex. Astros? Not likely to have the talent or the money. Brewers? Maybe, this is one to watch. Heck, if I wanted to guess another darkhorse, I’d throw the Marlins out there, who nearly landed Manny last year. Doubt it. Mets? Could use him (their rotation is Santana/Pelfrey and hoping for glue to put things together), but seriously, their system is rather iffy right now in terms of making this type of deal.
Let’s flip to the AL side. Angels just lost one of their better arms in Walden. Reckling and Brandon Wood is decent enough to start, but probably not enough. Rangers? Have the talent, so that’s a team to watch. White Sox? Another contender, as Kenny loves making moves, but what’s the deal? Gordon Beckham is sweet, Aaron Poreda headlining the pitching side wouldn’t get me worked up. Twins could use pitching … but I’m not sure I see a match without a third team. Something to ponder though, in the realm of unlikely, but keep it in the back of the mind. Tigers? Don’t have the assets to really give a big deal. Red Sox do, but Ricciardi would likely try to extract a premium. Yankees are a bit borderline in terms of matching up (no real quality shortstop talent to fork over).
This doesn’t mean they aren’t getting good deals. It just means that I question the potential of Ricciardi of landing this big mega-talent, knock your socks off, package in return. I just don’t see that many teams out there that are in it, have the talent, and would ponder it. Phillies, yes. I don’t really see the Rangers forking over the elite talent, don’t see the Red Sox giving up an arm and a leg.
So … does he take a good deal to start the rebuilding process? I know the fan answer is to say no. Now, certainly, salary relief could factor in, but I don’t see many teams with the potential to take on a lot of salary. Even the Yankees are reportedly have little room. But as a poster noted above, for a salary relief trade to happen, the Blue Jays would likely have to take back a bit less talent in return. That’s just how things role these days, although who knows, maybe there’s a sucker out there.
Now, what do I think as an outside observer? I think it’s a shame the Blue Jays are in the AL East, because in any other division, they would’ve had a couple strong years of contention, in all likelihood. I think that Ricciardi has been horribly, well, let’s just say, inconsistent, to say the least, in his tenure there. I do believe the time is right to rebuild. Yankees/Red Sox/Rays have a good 3-5 years of solid play from their current core, and they’ll be turning over guys so that could be extended. Baltimore is nipping at the bud at creating a really strong unit, with all their pitching in the system.
I know, a white flag trade doesn’t sit well with the fan base, when the “potential” is there for things to go right if they put it together. I think you shop Halladay hard, but you don’t go for salary relief. In that deal, you go for talent, with the hope of land a top 50 pitching prospect and a top 75 positional prospect to headline the deal. I think you shop Rolen (maybe Florida gets creative?, the Giants could be another possibility with Sandoval to first (or if Rolen is willing to go to first). I really don’t think Vernon is going anywhere – just don’t see the teams taking on the money left unless the Blue Jays hit a chunk. Alex Rios could probably be cleared.
Short of it is, I think the time’s right to tear down for a couple years and look towards, say, 2011 or 2012 and hope to have a solid core in place by then. But that’s me.
All they need is Vernon Wells to rebound slightly and the RISP hitting to even out
and they’re right in it. Seems like a silly situation to waste a year or two.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
Wells is useless. His contract was bad even when it was first signed because he wasn’t in the top 6 in the game and it made him the sixth highest paid. Beeston made it clear yesterday that the Jays will not deal Halladay unless the deal coming back is something the other team is reluctant to do. They have to pay a ransom otherwise Halladay’s staying put as he should.
A Nation of Masochists TRUCULENCE!! It's not just a word. It's a way of life.
Yes, Vernon's contract is bad
If he’s playing through an injury this year like he was in 2007 (stupidly), then he could very well rebound in 2010 like he did in 2008. If he’s always going to be like this (ie. if playing through injuries all the time has resulted in a chronic condition), then the team can get the same improvement just by being willing to bench/DL him and call up someone like Buck Coats. In either case, the team can get an easy improvement from that lineup spot.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
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