Talk about Doc
by bunner on Jul 27, 2009 2:45 PM EDT
37 comments
I just read that the Jays and Phillies are at an impasse over the prospects involved in a potential Halladay deal. And that the dialog between the teams has become 'angry' (this thanks to mlbtraderumors.com).
From a Jays perspective: I'm happy that JP isn't backing down in his demands. IF he is going to trade his franchise player then he has to get what he wants not what some rival GM is 'willing' to part with. If JP does back down and accept the lower offer from the Phillies (not including Drabek and Brown) then he'll look awful and might as well jump on the same flight out of TO that Roy will be on.
From a Phillies perspective: Are they serious? They won't trade 3 minor leaguers for one of if not the best pitcher in all of baseball? I don't care how much potential they have it's prospects they are giving up for a world series run - they are absolutely crazy to not just give the Jays whatever minor leaguers they want. Any rumours about other teams have them giving up at least 1 major leaguer in a deal for Halladay, the Phillies are giving up some double A/single A players for a true staff ace...they are NUTS
What else is out there? Boston could still put something together, suggestions were Clay Buchholz, Daniel Bard and some other prospects from Boston. If Lars Anderson was included in the group plus another young hitter the Jays should jump at it regardless of Boston being a division rival. Buchholz has the potential to be an ace like Doc (more so then Drabek in Philly) in a few years and Bard has "dominant closer" written all over him. The Rangers could find some $ at the last minute and make a big bid and don't count out the Dodgers.
What I really want to know is what have you heard about potential offers and what should the Jays accept?
0 recs |
37 comments
Email
Print
Comments
All i know is that JP better not be asking for Happ right now
He is overrated, and is extremely lucky so far this season.
Id be happy with Drabek, Brown, and Carrasco to be honest. But it doesnt really look like the Jays will get anything done. I dont think the Phillies are ever going to part with Drabek + Brown and anyone else.
I dont think the Halladay will go anywhere else other than Philly, and i havent heard any rumours about legit offers from other teams.
I think the trade isnt going to happen to be honest.
I do hope that they get something done in the offseason, although you have to wonder if Halladay’s value will be higher then or now?
Onions Baby Onions
by ohmybosh on Jul 27, 2009 2:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good points
Happ projects as a No. 3-4 starter at best for next year and beyond. He has been somewhat fortunate and has had incredible run support. As a Phils fan, I’d rather give him up than Drabek, who projects as a possible top of the rotation starter.
I also question the whole notion that Hallday’s value will never be higher than it is right now. If he’s dangled in the offseason, there will be far more bidders for his services. Many teams will think he’s the final piece of the puzzle to a penant winning year. Right now, you only have a few serious suitors.
by Boundforbeach on Jul 28, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Closer is hard position to predict.
League looked like he had closer in wait written all over him and looked what happen. Same thing with Zumaya in Detroit.
It changes everyday but what I am hearing now the teams with the best shot and that are still in the running are
Phillies, Red Sox and Angels,
For the Longest time it was Phillies, Brewers, Rangers and Angels
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
by JohnnyG on Jul 27, 2009 3:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like
the offer that Boston could put together for doc (if willing to) the best.
by bunner on Jul 27, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well yeah me too, but only cause I’m thinking Boston has to pay a premium to get us to trade within the divison
I read something along the lines that NY had called and asked what it would take and the Jays said
Hughes, Chamberlain, Montero and Jackson which is insane, but if JP could ever manage to pull something like that off I would be awestruck and I would argue most of the fanbase would have to be as well.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
by JohnnyG on Jul 27, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brewers were never really contenders, IMHO, because Doc would not waive his no trade for Brewers, again IMHO, as they are not immediate contender
by aagoodfella on Jul 27, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Phillies Fan Here
Hey guys,
There’s some things that I think JP is over looking. Most fans here think he’s a downright weasel. We all know these deadlines he’s been throwing out mean didly squat. There’s NO way Halladay gets traded within the AL east. That’s committing GM suicide. The Cardinals are out now that they’ve depleted their trade bait with the Lugo, Derosa and Holliday trades they’ve already finished. The Ranger’s are broke, borrowing money from MLB. The Angel’s best offer wasn’t good enough. The dodger’s aren’t giving up Billingsly or Kershaw. The Giant’s already said they weren’t interested. And Cliff Lee has already been made “quasi-available” for a lesser package than Riccardi demands, but one that we’d be willing to package for Doc.
You have to trade him now to maximize his worth. His value goes way down after July 31st, look at what the Mets paid for Johan because the twins didn’t deal at the deadline. And sorry for the insulting trade offer we sent you back, but we were just trying to return the favor.
I really hope a deal gets done to make both are squads better, I’m just trying to frame up the Phillies fan mentality of Riccardi here stateside.
Good luck rebuilding guys! I can only tolerate 3/5’s of the AL East anyway so I’d like you guys to prosper.
-Travis
"I can play anywhere; First, Third, Left field, anywhere but Philadelphia." - Dick Allen
http://www.travismount.net
by tam5070 on Jul 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
theTwins should have kept him
they got very little, and missed the playoffs by less than one game that season, losing the one-game playoff. I’d rather keep Roy for another season, try to resign him, and take the draft picks than trade him and not get at least one special player in return.
And if the Phillies are really the only team still in the hunt for Halladay, the logic that his trade value goes way down after the trade deadline doesn’t really hold up. Obviously his overall value goes down if you only have him for a year as opposed to if you get him now, but the Jays (1) could potentially solve that problem in the offseason by giving the acquiring team a window to negotiate an extension; or (2) are sure to benefit from multiple teams being in the market for Halladay, as opposed to now when there appear to be very few teams interested – many teams would like to take him on but don’t have the salary room or face other constraints.
I’m not opposed to trading Doc, but it would have to be for a lot closer to the Jays’ offer than what the Phillies offered back. I understand why the Phillies wouldn’t want to give that much up, but there’s no point trading Doc for less than impact major-league players. Anyway, I doubt the trade happens.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Jul 27, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JP not a weasel
I do not think anybody considers JP a weasel cuz of his artificial deadline. I think most folks involved in this trading game recognize that if they leave it too late, it will not allow enough time to hammer out the details of a deal. Hence, JP set up the deadline.
Thanks for not hating the Jays, but this is most likely cuz the Jays are not as wining a franchise as the other AL East teams you disdain (which I assume to be Yanks, Bosox and Rays). Afterall, were it the early 1990s, when Jays won back to back World Series, you would probably dislike the Jays. Adding to that dislike would be the fact that a member of the Jays mouthed off something to the mayor of Philadelphia, if I recall, and later had to apologize. Bottom line, you would dislike the Jays to if they won all the time, it goes with the program.
by aagoodfella on Jul 27, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought everyone in Philly hated the Jays from 93, I guess since they actually won last year it has cooled a bit.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
by JohnnyG on Jul 27, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not even close
We hated our manager for some very questionable pitching decisions and matchups he made during that series. I believe we were up almost 6-7 runs in the 8th inning of game 4 and lost. And he continued to use Mitch Williams despite the fact that he could not locate his fastball and his velocity had dropped precipitously due to overuse. To this day, I still believe the Phils should have won that series. But I give Toronto credit. They came through when it counted. I never hated Toronto at all.
But, since we gifted you the series, would it kill you to return the favor and give us Doc without taking Drabek ? :)
by Boundforbeach on Jul 28, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a weasel, but...
he’s sure acting like he’s enjoying his 15 minutes of fame. He’s flapping his trap non-stop, posturing like a big-shot, and preening for the cameras like he’s some sort of celebrity. Dude is vain. When and if Doc gets traded, the media circus will leave town and his time in the limelight will end (as might his job). I don’t know what you all think of your GM, but he seems like he’s more Ed Wade than Theo Epstein from my perspective.
by Boundforbeach on Jul 28, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no question he loves the spotlight
and it is interesting because he doesn’t exactly exude skill in that area.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Jul 28, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The craziest part is that Roy is a proven superstar and the minor leaguers have yet to prove anything. They might all get injured once they join the Jays organization given our track record in wrecking young arms.
If I had a chance to win back-to-back-to-back WS and have Roy Halladay on teh sam team as Chase Utley and Ryan Howard I wouldn’t care about the minor leaguers. The Phils will have 20 years to rebuild. Drabek will be just ready to be traded when the Phil’s get around to needing another superstar.
My prediction: The trade will happen. Philly is just hoping JP crumbles under the pressure. Hope he doesn’t.
I will also go out on a line and say that Scoot and Rolen will be traded if Halladay goes as 2010 will be a write-off likely. Hope Rios and Wells find a way out of town too but don’t think that will happen.
by BigTimeBlueJayFan on Jul 27, 2009 4:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if the Phillies are as strong a scouting and building org, as those speaking on their behalf have elsewhere stated on this website, than they should have no problem parting with prospects knowing that they can easily and quickly replace them with their superior system
by aagoodfella on Jul 27, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That took years
Our farm system was terrible for a very long time. It literally took us years to build it up and reap the returns. If Rolen hadn’t been a crybaby, our entire infield would have derived from home grown farm products (Howard 1st; Utlet 2nd; Rollins ss; Rolen 3rd). Our farm system is now deep and there is understandable reluctance to set it back for years for what may be a short term gain. Doc won’t re-up with the Phils when his contract expires. He’ll be 34 and Boras will seek some ridiculous long term deal. Frankly, I’d be far more open to trading Drabek, Happ and Brown if Doc would agree to a 3-4 yr contract extension as part of the deal. But since that won’t happen, I’m really not sure I want this deal to go through. We’ll see what happens.
by Boundforbeach on Jul 28, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear ya.
That said, there is just so much speculative value built into prospects and so many things that can trip them up. Personally, I remain of the view that the Jays can stay away from Drabek if they get Brown, Taylor, Donald, Marson, Knapp and Carrasco.
It is a fair trade in expected value for what Roy can give to the Phillies vs. what this half dozen can give the Jays — some will blow up, some will meander to mediocrity. Psychologically, there may be some Philly attachment, but it is a fair trade.
by aagoodfella on Jul 28, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The way I see it...(and I'm just an idiot fan)
Is that the Phils have two very highly regarded pitching prospects (Drabek and Carrasco). Both project to be No. 1 or 2s. Carrasco was thought to be the crown jewel of our farm last year, until Drabek overtook him.
The Phils also have two superstars in the making in terms of positions players (Brown and Taylor). The rest, as you point out, are just to speculative at this point to be fighting over.
I think a fair trade would be one of our top pitching prospects (yes, even Drabek) and one of our top two position prospects. Although I don’t think Happ has that high of an upside, I don’t want to trade him simply because he is already in their rotation. Beyond Hamels and Blanton, we have enough question marks in our rotation. I’d like to keep Happ as our No. 4 or 5. It makes no sense to trade one starting pitcher for another, as we are not filling any holes positions 3, 4, and 5.
You guys can also have Marson, Knapp and Donald (the latter of whom I like very much).
by Boundforbeach on Jul 28, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carrasco is highly regarded? He was being talked about as a throw in.
Drabek wasn’t on the top 100 at the start of this season and full credit to him for breaking out but still.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
by JohnnyG on Jul 28, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carrasco is no "throw-in"...
Here’s a good post with comments from the Phils Assistant G.M. Sure, they are biased, but the guy throws smoke. He should be a good starter in this league.
by Boundforbeach on Jul 28, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doc isn't represented by Boras, is he?
and I don’t see him hiring him in the future, do you?
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Jul 28, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope we do trade Halladay
This guy deserves to be in the playoffs this year. His window is closing.
by suitup17 on Jul 27, 2009 4:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, I will feel bad for Doc if he doesnt get traded
I hope the Jays and Phils can work something out. I think Drabek, Brown and Carrasco is a very fair trade. Drabek has a lot of issues… the only thing hes got goign for him is raw stuff, which usually isnt the best thing to have.
Halladay will guarantee the Phillies at least one win in every playoff series pretty much. Him playing in the NL will be equivalent to him pitching in AAA.
Onions Baby Onions
by ohmybosh on Jul 27, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah either that deal or maybe just Taylor instead of Carrasco
As long as we get some good talent back that we can use.
by suitup17 on Jul 27, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 The guy is a class act
He’s been the Anti-Farve throughout this entire process. I’d like to see him get his shot in the playoffs, wherever that may be.
by Boundforbeach on Jul 28, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yankees not really in the running, right now
The need is for a fifth starter, but there is no way, says the pundit, that they will part with their future, esp. Hughes.
Possibly Joba. Probably not, given his last two outings. Cashman’s career is pinned to the performance of the young guys in IL and those he’s fostered. He’ll wait until all the shouting is over, perhaps off-season if Doc is still available. I posted a’nightmare scenario’ on pinstripe alley – the RS get your man. But, again, fear aside, logic wins out this time in this economy. Plus, Roy did have arm soreness and was put on the DL earlier in the year, right?
Fiscally conservative Yankees fan.
ejs
by ericjs on Jul 28, 2009 1:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
no, that is not right
Roy went on the DL with a strained groin, not any arm injury.
By the way, I’d have no interest at all in trading Halladay for Joba, and I’m not sure why the Jays would either. Cheers,
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Jul 28, 2009 6:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah the notion that Halladay is injury prone is complete and utter bunk.
-Freak Line drive off the leg (Thank you very much Mench, I hope you are enjoying Japan!)
A-ppendectomy
-He was shut down late in the season for a couple of years but the Jays were out of the running and they said at the time it was more for rest then anything and had they been in the running for a playoff spot he would of gone
-And a strained groin this year which he was back after 2 weeks
- He was put on the DL for tired arm/Sore arm back in 2004, but since then aside from some freak injuries he has been solid.
Oh and I’m with Hugo, I have no interest in trading Halladay for a package centered around Joba.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
by JohnnyG on Jul 28, 2009 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wonder if the Yanks would do the deal...
if JP forced them to take Wells in addition to Doc. If he’s under a mandate to clear salary, that would be far more important than getting Joba, who I think is terribly overrated.
by Boundforbeach on Jul 28, 2009 10:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No way you trade Doc to the AL East
Its just Suicide..unless you get a redonkolous offer not prospects, but actual MLB players
by bowling_kid25 on Jul 28, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you're trading Doc in the AL East
you’re rebuilding and it’s arguably better to get prospects, because you’re depriving the team you trade with of their future talent, while adding to yours, therefore giving yourself a competitive advantage in the future when Doc will have moved on or declined. Of course if you get players with very little service time, that mitigates that somewhat.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Jul 28, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe now the Doc Trade Talk can end
I was sick of it when it first came out, nevermind now, when its all you hear everyday
Wish Tom woulda banned it, like he suggested when it first started.
The jays need a good 1st half next year or hes gone, i think they can pull it off, this year was just unlucky.
by bowling_kid25 on Jul 28, 2009 12:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AuY3Uc3fJjX38d.h5litbbmBYgM6?slug=ap-bluejays-finances&prov=ap&type=lgns
Makes you wonder if they told J.P to put fans in the stands..and this doc trade talk was his way of trying to build some hype
by bowling_kid25 on Jul 28, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
please ....
a company wanting to control costs …. wow, now that is a headline ….NOT
it is a meaningless headline
the only entities in the world that are oblivious to uncontrolled costs are governments, and looking at global public debtloads, the idiocy of that mgmt style is very self-evident
by aagoodfella on Jul 28, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus it was Rogers speaking to Investors…. Not to fans. Of course they are going to tell investors they are going to run a prudent business. Anything else is suicide.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
by JohnnyG on Jul 28, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
