3 hours to game time

by Tom Dakers on Jul 29, 2009 12:06 PM EDT in News Comment 116 comments

And Roy Halladay is still a Jay. But then I won't breathe a sigh of relief until I see him on the mound. I think twitter is allowing rumors to run more wild than they normally would. Someone twitters a guess and it's everywhere in a few moments. The one I just saw has Cliff Lee going to the Phillies for not near enough, so I don't believe that one either. I think, at the moment, if Doc goes it will be to the Red Sox, just because I think the Sox are worried about the little slump they are in and hope that a big deal would end it.

We saw Shaun Marcum and Scott Richmond on the Jay's bench yesterday. It took me a few moments to recognize Marcum. I guess he'll travel with the team for a bit. Richmond is to start Friday, and took Dirk Hayhurst spot in the line up. I feel sorry for Dirk but that's life as someone in the back of the bullpen, I'm sure he'll be back in September if not before.

Jordan Bautian says that last night was Ichiro's first career walk off hit. He's pretty amazing, he barely swung the bat, jus enough to drop it between the infield and the outfield. I thought at first that Scoot or Hill would have a shot at it.

I'm going to wander over to IHOP for breakfast. One of my favorite things about being on this side of the border is IHOP, if we had them in Calgary I'd be 50 pound heavier. Then spend an hour or so looking at book stores and then sit in the 100 F heat at the game. One of the ushers told us that they likely will close the roof for the game today. Hope so.

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Have more Beer!

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 12:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Associated Press is also reporting the Philies/Lee trade

So I think there might be something to it.

I sure hope the BoSox trade doesn’t happen…it will probably centre around Clay Bucholtz who I don’t want.

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on Jul 29, 2009 12:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes but the original rumour for the 3 players wasn’t nearly enough.

Now some places are reporting Knapp is the centerpiece which wasn’t in there before.

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I want some good offensive players in the deal

I’m not as worried about pitching

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Masterkembo posted in one of the fan posts

Carrasco, Marson and Donald…
aren’t in the lineup for the Phillies AAA team today.

Coincidence, or a deal on the horizon?

by masterkembo

Could be a good indicator something happened..

by bowling_kid25 on Jul 29, 2009 12:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Carrasco is curious, but if his name is being bandied about in trade talks I can understand them holding him back even if a deal isn’t done.

It was reported that Marson and Donald were scheduled for a day off.

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

supposedly

Marcum is rehabbing his back, which is why he’s with the Jays for now. He’ll be back in AAA before being called up. While they are on the west coast, it’s no problem to shuttle the two of them back and forth between Vegas and the mlb team. Janssen pitched a scoreless inning for Vegas yesterday, he may be able to provide a little rest for the bullpen if he’s healthy, but Cito would have to use him first

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 12:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hmmmmm

When Marcum and Janssen come back in August, who’s going down?

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on Jul 29, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe it’s possible they may hold off until Sept 1st and wait until the rosters expand?

Other then that they are talking about expanding the rotation to a 6 man to limit innings for the young arms so I also think it is possible someone like Romero, Cecil or Zep get shut down and/or sent back to the minors (Ricky obviously leaning towards shut down and Cecil and Zep going back to the minors)

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think

the Jays actually said Romero was one who wouldn’t need his innings limited or to be shut down, but I would prefer if they did it anyway.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's only had 102.2 innings pitched

Even if he pitches the rest of the year, thats probably only 150-160 innings. Thats not bad for a young arm. We will want him to be a 200+ inning guy in a year or two.

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on Jul 29, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you should add in his 14 1/3 innings in the minors this season, but your point is well taken. I’m guessing that’s why the Jays are comfortable pitching him through the end of the season.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought it was higher then that.

If that is the case then you are right, no harm in letting him finish it out.

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Makes you wonder about next year

Keep the young guys down..or reform them into Relievers for the Pen…

by bowling_kid25 on Jul 29, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yep, I read that about Marcum as well. They are projecting a mid August return for him provided no further setbacks in rehab

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

collective agreement

I think the collective agreement specifies how long a rehab assignment can take until the player has to be returned to the 25-man or optioned to the minors or returned to the DL. I thought that took us until mid-August.

by ayjackson on Jul 29, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Damn rules!

I need to be a lawyer to keep track of all of the MLB rules… That book is thicker then the pirate codex in Pirates of The Caribbean 3

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

so who pitches?

If Doc is traded in the next three hours? Richmond?

by ayjackson on Jul 29, 2009 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It’s either Richmond or Tallet I would have to think

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

who is boston offering?

is it the same 3 players that they offered the first time?

by Aquamelli on Jul 29, 2009 1:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Bucholtz, Bowden and some outfield prospect named Westmoreland or something

No thanks

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on Jul 29, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

seriously?

what an insult… how the hell is THAT a premium?

by Aquamelli on Jul 29, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with Hugo here...

It’s a solid starting point…Buchholz, Bowden, Lars Anderson, Jed Lowrie (+ some lower level prospects) for Doc and Scutaro could work for both, or boston could want Rolen also…

by bunner on Jul 29, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Doubtful they want Rolen.

They just got Laroche to help out with that situation

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes please

That’s a solid offer, I’d be tempted to expand it with players from our side and prospects from theirs.

by ayjackson on Jul 29, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's way better than what Philly started with

I wouldn’t necessarily do it for that, but I wouldn’t reject it out of hand – it’s at least worth a counteroffer

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought it was Buchholz, choice of Anderson, Bowden, or Masterson, and one unnamed lower level prospect

In other words, not enough.

They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.

by Torgen on Jul 29, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lee to Philly...

… is tentatively a done deal, if that makes sense, lol.

I’m upset. Toronto wasted a golden opportunity here.

by JaysFanInKS on Jul 29, 2009 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

12:42pm: Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi report that the sides have agreed to a deal that sends Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco to Philly for Jason Knapp, Carlos Carrasco, Jason Donald and Lou Marson. The teams still have to examine medical records for the deal to go through.

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lose-lose trade

Phillies get a pitcher who’ll be lit up in the playoffs. Indians get a bunch of failed prospects. (Knapp hasn’t failed yet, but “sore shoulder” isn’t comforting.

by ayjackson on Jul 29, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

good

get him out of the AL lol

freakn CY young award robbin mother%$^%^%

by Aquamelli on Jul 29, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not good though. For two reasons

1) I lose the best cheap keeper I had in my Fantasy League
2) This seriously cuts into the compeition for Halladay, I didn’t think the Indians would give up Lee for those players it doesn’t seem like enough of what they wanted.

I know most of you are bummed out about number 1 there but trust me number 2 is perhaps just as important ….. kidding of course.

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

This removes some leverage the Jays had in getting a HUGE package for Halladay – the Phillies didn’t have to give up Dominic Brown, Michael Taylor or Kyle Drabek so I think that this deal is a HUGE win for them – Heck they could conceivably still put up a package of Brown, Taylor, Drabek and Happ for Halladay and then have both of them!!!!!!!!

by bunner on Jul 29, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

HAHAH Rosenthal is reporting that this is a “coup” for both teams.

Can someone please explain to me how it’s possible that BOTH teams can have a coup. A coup would mean you made off like a bandit with the trade and that would be impossible for both sides to do it. If it is a Coup for both sides would that make it an even trade?

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Coup against the jays I presume he means.

by BigTimeBlueJayFan on Jul 29, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

err Nope, He was referring to the Phils and Indians

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That’s the point though. They conspired against the Jays. That’s why it is a coup for both teams because Philly gets a top line pitcher and Indians get prospects and Jays get screwed essentially out of a better deal.

by BigTimeBlueJayFan on Jul 29, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If the Indians want to take lesser prospects then what they were asking for a settle for a price just to screw the Jays.

All the more power to em.

Mostly everyone I have seen keep saying Philly won, that they got a top notch pitcher without having to give up their top prospects. Good on them.

I really don’t think they conspired against the Jays. The Phillies didn’t want to pay the price that was being asked and they found a team that was willing to lower their expectations. I actually appauld JP for not backing down and settling I would have been pissed if he had settled for a lower package of prospects for Halladay.

Blair posted that had they came at the Jays with that offer he would of had a hard time not laughing out loud before he hung up the phone. And I agree with him

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

-1

I don’t think it was a ‘golden opportunity’ The Jays weren’t getting back any top notch major league ready talent in the proposed deal with the Phillies. Happ was the only one in the bigs and he’s not ‘top notch’. I think the Jays were right to not do the deal with the Phillies though they could lose bargaining power now because this package is pretty low

by bunner on Jul 29, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The other thing for the Phillies...

Halladay was a MUCH better fit as an extreme groundball pitcher in their homer-friendly park. Lee on the other hand hat a 1.01 GB/FB ratio this year so he could get lit up something big in that park…we’ll see.

by bunner on Jul 29, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've backed JP through a lot of crap...

… but this is it. If Doc isn’t traded by the deadline, I’m going to be very upset. Y’all know my pessimism, but this is NOT a team capable of reaching the postseason next year.

by JaysFanInKS on Jul 29, 2009 1:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm not a huge JP fan...

But I can’t fault him for not trading Halladay if it means not getting what he (and the powers that be in the org) want/need in return. Ultimately I think it’s Paul Beeston calling the shots on this trade…and if now Boston doesn’t offer up something better then Buchholz, one of: Bowden, Anderson, Masterson and some lower prospects then Doc will be in TO until the off-season.

by bunner on Jul 29, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

The Phillies offer was not that bad. If they didn’t want to throw in Drabek, then we should have asked for Brown and Taylor instead. I’m thinking we’re royally screwed here if the deal does not happen. Plus, I think the Cleveland fans are going to be really pissed off if that reported deal goes through. Not to mention, it is Fox reporting something.

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd rather see him not traded

than traded for a poor return. The Jays need guys who could be impact players in the majors over what they would otherwise have in return for Doc, not guys like Donald and Happ who project as (maybe) above-average, low-cost players. If they can’t get that, they’re better off keeping Doc and going over slot and drafting high-upside players with the draft picks they get.

Now, if they could have Drabek, Brown, AND Taylor then you have the makings of a deal, but I don’t think Philadelphia was ever going to give up near that much. They wanted to push the Jays into making a deal to trade Doc for a return only marginally better than what they’re giving up for Lee, and I’m glad the Jays didn’t blink.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the other thing

is that now the other teams that want Doc know the Jays won’t hesitate to decline if they’re not getting what they want, so it could actually improve their leverage somewhat. In negotiations you always want to convince the other party you’re comfortable walking away, and the Jays have credibly done that, IMO.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Now people are mad that we're NOT going to trade Doc??

3 weeks ago a large chunk of fans were furious that we were even considering trading Doc. I’m fine with not trading him – there’s no rush right now anyway. If we still are a bad team next year and we can’t resign him then you trade him.

by masterkembo on Jul 29, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But way less value

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oakland traded Holliday in his free agent year

and got a solid return

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

way less value than what?

Philly wasn’t offering what we wanted so we would have ended up with what value exactly?

You have no idea what some team might be willing to give up next year. It’s not as if the players Philly were ready to give up were MLB ready anyway, except for Happ who has a ceiling as a 3/4 starter. All the others have question marks.

by masterkembo on Jul 29, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Well I guess we'll see won't we?

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You can trade him...

… in 2010 for value that will be worse than this year. There is NO way that Doc’s value in the market goes up from here. The front office needs to get over itself and realize they aren’t EVER going to get the deal their looking for, so they might as well take the best offer rather than wait until the end of 2010 and have two draft picks to show for this mess.

And, FWIW, 3 weeks ago the Jays were somewhat in a playoff race. Not anymore. I’ve been about rebuilding this franchise for some time now. Not just the past month. They must trade Doc, Scutaro, and Rolen to maximize their potential for the next five years.

Unloading VW’s contract would be nice, too, but I’m realistic ;)

by JaysFanInKS on Jul 29, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And this is the type of BS that I mean...

1:43pm: Ricciardi tells Sherman he expects to keep Halladay through 2010 and try to win next year.

That’s CRAP. This team will not win next year.

by JaysFanInKS on Jul 29, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure they can.

Rotation will be better, perhaps Snider full time, VW and Rios can’t possibly have 2 shitty seasons in a row (Can they?)
Don’t just give him away

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on Jul 29, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How do we know that a bunch of young guys...

… can make the rotation better? I just don’t see it. And if it’s going to be these young guys making our rotation better, trade Doc, get something in return, and INCREASE the chances of making our rotation/staff/entire team BETTER in a SHORTER amount of time.

Why is it a given that Snider will be great? VW is not playing shitty right now, he’s just being VW.

by JaysFanInKS on Jul 29, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Snider doesn't actually have to be great to be a marked improvement

heck, what he did for us in April is a better than we’ve gotten out of those at-bats since

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What?

Vernon was 8th in MVP voting in 2003 and 22nd in 2006. He’s not a shitty player, just having a terrible year.
And a rotation of Doc, Ricky, Marcum, Cecil and 100 guys competing for the 5th starter is a fantastic rotation

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on Jul 29, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

?

Doc, control issues, coming off of serious injury, inconsistent and young, and 100 guys…

I’m getting sick of this- people ought to quit assuming that our great, young pitching is going to progress and that pitchers can recover fully from serious stints on the DL.

by JaysFanInKS on Jul 29, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So we should assume everyone will regress?
That doesn’t make sense either.

People tend to pitch better as they mature so it is a fairly common assumption to think that younger pitchers get better with more innings and practice at the big league level.

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good idea

Trade them all and lets get ready for 2018.

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on Jul 29, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

2020 BABY!

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

my little girl will be 13

same age I was when the Jays won last time!

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's a sign!

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So you want them to settle for a lower package?

I don’t agree

I also don’t agree with trading Scutaro unless you get something big. The two picks because he will most likely be type A is worth more I think,

I do agree with Rolen, his value is never higher, but value is only perceived until someone is willing to pay that much for something

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you can't just "take the best offer"

because if that’s your approach, the best offer is going to be really, really terrible. No one ever got a good deal in negotiation without being willing to walk away if they didn’t get what they needed. Say you are right and the Jays have absolutely zero chance of competing next season. Do you think the Phillies offer was what the Jays need to contend in a few years?

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

by JaysFanInKS on Jul 29, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why would we trade anyone else if we keep Halladay?

That just sounds bad

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree.

I should clarify.

If we don’t trade Doc, then don’t trade anyone. We are committed to 2010 in that case.

BUT, if you trade Doc, dump these other guys and maximize your return.

by JaysFanInKS on Jul 29, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think this is where we are at odds then,

I don’t think those prospects helped the Jays to compete in 2-3 years if you do then obviously you think the team messed up.

To each their own opinion. If you think those prospects would have put the Jays over the top then so be it.

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Plus we better re-sign Scutaro

Or get another good player for that position

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

that’s a different argument than “take the best offer” if you genuinely think it was a good return for Doc in that those players are going to be impact major-leaguers in a few years. I disagree, with the possible exception of Taylor.

I just don’t get the argument of people who say we need to trade our players because “this team isn’t good enough” and who somehow think getting B prospects in return is going to make the Jays of the future good enough.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nice doing business with you guys (almost)

We got Lee and hold onto our top prospects. I’d have rather had Halladay, but all things being equal, the Phils may have made out pretty damn good on this one, especially considering that Lee is cheaper.

I’m just praying JP doesn’t trade Doc to the Dodgers. That would just suck. Here’s hoping your team keeps Doc, gets your pitching staff healthy, and kicks some ass in the AL East next year… cheers

by Boundforbeach on Jul 29, 2009 2:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

May have?

You guys made off like Bandits.

Good luck with Lee’s Flyballs though.

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes

i have to give congratulations to Phillies on a great heist … your mgmt team deserves a curtain call

by aagoodfella on Jul 29, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is BS!

Give Halladay a chance to win this year!!!!

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 2:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I can understand that argument

but the Jays have to do what is best for the team, just like Doc has to do what’s best for his career.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if nothing else

as (part of) a publicly-traded company, they owe a fiduciary duty to the stockholders to act in the best interest of the company, and can’t move Doc for his own good unless the deal is also in the best interest of the team.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just feel like

1) We’re holding him back after all he’s done for us – Philly was a perfect fit
2) We’ll lose a ton of value if we can’t trade now and won’t rebuild

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 2:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Value is only worth what someone is willing to pay.

It’s all well and good to say his Value is highest now, but if no one is willing to pay that value what is the point?

I don’t want the Jays to settle and lose out on rebuilding to do Doc a favour. I love the guy and everything but the team comes first.

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Amen, on both accounts.

by JaysFanInKS on Jul 29, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

@suitup17

by JaysFanInKS on Jul 29, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Leed deal was not a good deal for the Jays

the Bosox are interested and the Yanks do not want Bosox to have him

California teams are still in the hunt and the next best alternative to Halladay is off the market

plus there is stillthe off-season

patience grass-hoppers, a better deal shall come — well, maybe

by aagoodfella on Jul 29, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But how can his trade value get better between now and this upcoming off-season?

Honest question, not meant to be rhetorical.

The odds of that happening against the odds that he gets hurt, goes into a mini-slump, has some bad luck- is much greater.

by JaysFanInKS on Jul 29, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

His value may not be worth as much, but clearly teams don’t want to pay value at the moment so why pull the trigger?

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

fair question

right now there are only a very small number of teams interested, largely because of salary, other commitments, etc. In the offseason, presumably every team that thinks it has a chance of competing in 2009 will potentially be interested and teams will be much more flexible re: salary. In addition, the Jays could allow the team acquiring Doc in the offseason a chance to extend his contract, which could appeal to big-market teams and Doc, who values stability. At the least, there will be more teams interested then than now.

So there are two forces at play – on one hand, his value of course will go down because you’ll only have him for 1 year, 1 playoff run, 1 playoffs, etc (unless extended). On the other hand, more teams will be interested, which could well up the asking price. I wouldn’t be shocked if his value declined in the offseason, but I sure wouldn’t be surprised if the Jays could get more for him then either. The bottom line is it is very hard to get teams to bid against each other when there are so few teams interested.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good points...

Actually great points. It just comes down to which force will have a stronger pull.

by JaysFanInKS on Jul 29, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the thing is...

Teams know right now that they’re in the hunt, thus they will pay more because they want to win the WS. In the offseason, it’s hard to predict where teams will be and I’m not sure they’d want to part with top prospects just in-case things don’t work out. I’m all for keeping Halladay, but I don’t want our team to be screwed and I don’t want Halladay to be stuck losing for 1 1/2 more years. He has a chance to be great.

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I want Doc to win too

But I would rather trade him to Pitsburg if we got a better return. We aren’t in the buisness to get Doc a WS, we are trying to get the Jays a WS.

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on Jul 29, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah all things being equal I would cheer for Doc in a world series… unless he was playing against the Jays.

Name on the front first. Name on the back second.

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i will cheer for Doc in any uniform

but against the Jays, obviously I would hope the Jays wn

by aagoodfella on Jul 29, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's true

but there are some teams that are always in the hunt, and other teams that think they could be (circa Mariners when they made the Bedard trade) if only they could get Doc – so the overreaching could actually encourage more teams to be interested, though there’s certainly no guarantee of that.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Jul 29, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"he has a chance to be great"

Huh? The guy is basically consensus best pitcher in baseball and certainly consensus best pitcher in AL. I would say he’s achieved greatness.

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Jul 29, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

referring to the lack of championship success

I assume. Sort of a Ray Bourque thing, I guess.

by jaysbrazil on Jul 29, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Uh, how about a WS win or making the playoffs?

I’m not implying that he’s not the best pitcher in baseball

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whether or not you meant to

I think you did imply that he’s not the best pitcher in baseball.

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Jul 29, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No not at all

I’m just saying that he could have a chance to make the playoffs and win the whole thing. I guess you could say a chance to do great things then if that sounds better for you.

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

No worries and sorry to nitpick! And we agree Doc is the best, hopefully he goes out and proves it again today.

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Jul 29, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Its all good!

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Another thing

Maybe we should release some of our deadweight and give Snider and some of the younger guys a chance to get some at bats. Get them ready for next season.

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 3:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think several folks here, and not just us,

Would be alright with dropping Millaaaaaaaaaaahhh…

by JaysFanInKS on Jul 29, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I'd rather have Snider wiffing at pitches than Millar at bat for us

by suitup17 on Jul 29, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

C'mon

Delucci grounding out to second base every time up MUST tire out the opposing teams’ 2B that’s a great strategy too!

by bunner on Jul 29, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah come on!
You see him making funny faces at the camera in the dugout? That helps the Jays Right? RIGHT? Anybody? Hello?

Damn…. yeah I got nothing

'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.

by JohnnyG on Jul 29, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Latest from MLBTRADERUMORS.com

2:14pm: Sean McAdam of the Boston Herald reports that the Red Sox are focused on their talks with the Blue Jays. However, Ryan Westmoreland and Casey Kelly are “off-limits” and the Red Sox want to keep Daniel Bard.

- so Bard is in the picture now…that’s not a bad thing :)

by bunner on Jul 29, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

So in summation

Everyone wants Doc, but they want to give us a bunch of expendable prospects that they don’t want anyways.
Doc’s going nowhere.

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on Jul 29, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually...

I’d say I could care less if Westmoreland and Kelly are involved

Westmoreland is in LoA ball right now so he’s a long way off, he could be good but there is a lot of time before we find that out.

Casey Kelly is a pitching prospect and a SS prospect and again is in LoA ball now (as a SS) but made it to High A ball as a pitcher…all is good there but if he can do both well can he do either exceptional???

Jays should focus on more ‘close to the bigs’ or already in the bigs youngsters like Bowden, Buchholz, Bard, Lars Anderson, Josh Reddick, Jed Lowrie etc.

by bunner on Jul 29, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs