Rios Gone
by Tom Dakers on Aug 10, 2009 6:33 PM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays News
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PrintThe Jays going to allow the White Sox to take Alex Rios. No player is coming back to us. JP just announced it in a press conference.
JP states that it he was let go to get some financial flexibility.
A quote stolen from MLB Trade Rumors:
Ken Rosenthal says that Jays have to let Rios go, regardless of what kind of return - if any - they receive. Freeing up $58.7MM over the next several years is too valuable of an opportunity. As Rosenthal points out, $12MM this offseason (Rios' approximate average salary) could have bought Bobby Abreu, Orlando Hudson, Russell Branyan, andAdam Everett, while leaving $800K to spare
Not that I'd want Adam Everett, and the only reason to have wanted Branyan is if you had a crystal ball that showed he was going to have this kind of season. Add in that I don't know where you would play Hudson, I like Hill better.
Not sure what I think about this yet. I guess it will depend if we are actually going to use the money being saved or if it is going into Roger's pockets. If we use the money to get a power bat that can play outfield, as well as keep Scutaro for a couple more years and perhaps put some of the money towards keeping Doc, then it's a good thing. If not then, well, we won't be very happy around here I am sure.
Rios is hitting .264 with not enough power to make up for that. If he is a .264 hitter going forward then is just as well he is gone. But does anyone believe he isn't going to have some good seasons? He is a player I like. Beyond the offense, I think we are going to have to stop thinking of the Jays as a good defensive team. If our outfield is Lind, Wells and Snider we aren't going to be great. add in that Encarnacion is at third in Rolen's place, I'm thinking we are lucky to be an average team defensively.
Being a fan I'll miss Rios.
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I am really starting to think
this team has no plan.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Good news: We now have the money needed to re-sign Doc in 2010.
Bad news: JP Riccardi is still our GM, so in all likelihood, we won’t re-sign him anyways.
by Blue and White Expat on Aug 10, 2009 6:41 PM EDT reply actions
I wouldn't say we have the money to resign him...half the money maybe....
and resigning has nothing to do with JP
I agree it's pretty unlikely we resign Doc
but if anything, that’s because we gave a player like Rios away for nothing.
In any event, it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Ricciardi, who signed Doc to two great below-market extensions and with whom Doc has a great relationship.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Doc doesn't care about money
He wants to win
i do not think there was ever any expectation that Halladay would not dip his toe into free agency — i think Roy has been forthcoming on that
anyhow, iin the offseason, Jays may have time to work a Doc trade, they will have more money to work with and they can negotiate contract extension with Halladay thus making a trade for his services more valuable to them
my only point was
people are already blaming Ricciardi for not resigning Doc, when in fact it’s the opposite of true
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I blame Riccardi for...
8 years of dissapointment, and 8 years of failing to implement anything Billy Beane does well with Oakland.
Yeah because Oakland looks great now.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
One of the best minor league systems in the majors
I know its in the top five, and think top three….
So yeah they look well set up for the future.
Also have a lower payroll.
And they won’t be able to keep all of their young players because of those same cost control measures. They won’t bring in big name FA’s because of that. So unless all of those young players can break into the bigs and break out at the same time, I don’t see anything happening.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
But that won't be because of bad management
Beane keeps the cupboard well stocked and waits for opportune times to add vets when his young core is strong enough to make a push.
Its the only way to win in that type of small market, and he does the job very well. Do you disagree with that?
I think his method worked for the one year and everyone has gone nuts over it and overhyped it
Look at the teams making the playoffs this year look at the payrolls.
I don’t disagree that he keeps his minor league teams stocked but what good is that is you still can’t compete. I think people would still be all over JP even if we had the minor league teams and rankings that the O’s have. Not to mention I think the Jays systems get crapped all over because of the Jays being a Canadian team.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
Im not talking Rays here...
Oakland does it in a different way and has been since Beane took over. He has made the playoffs quite a few times playing moneyball, not so recently but they’ll get there again.
How else can Oakland compete? This is the only option for a lot of teams.
They can play in the West division and only have to beat one other team rather than the two biggest money spenders in the business. If the Jays were in the west they would have made the playoffs at least once in the last 15 years.
Unfortunately the reality of being a Jays fan is that you have to suffer for a long period of time until the economy, owner, GM, manager and players all align. It happens twice every 32 years so far. Just think how great it will be when we actually do make the playoffs again. Hopefully that happens before the team moves from Toronto which is my greatest fear. Then all we have is boring hockey.
by BigTimeBlueJayFan on Aug 11, 2009 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions
As mentioned in the fanshot about the Jays possibly being Sold. I don’t see MLB wanting to move the team. The Jays are no where near the worst in attendence (The drop this year hurt us more then other teams but we still aren’t the worst) and Toronto is in the top 5 largest markets in North America.
Too much potential there for MLB to pass up especially since they have shown that they can sell tickets here.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
Doesn't change the fact that...
Beane has his team in a better spot going forward.
Move the team to Vancouver
and we would be in a better spot going forward as well.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I think it was really close to happening...
One source says that adding Thigpen, Diaz, or Cecil might have tipped the deal over the top.
Doc wants to win
And we just dumped what was considered our best overall player coming into this season. I think he’ll leave…
by T.Haynes on Aug 10, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well...
My girlfriend is really upset about this.
Doesn’t really make sense to me. JP better bring in some FA’s in the summer to Abreu/Hudson like deals.
Well this sucks....
I hated that quote from Rosenthal.
Yeah because Branyan is going to stay at 1.4 mil or whatever he is this year. And Abreu should have got more but the market was depressed and he will get more now.
Let’s just cherry pick people having great years and have small contracts… Jackass… I hate him more and more everyday.
…………
Back to the Jays… I think this officially signals that the Brass wants to constrict payroll. Very unfortunate, I think we may be in line for years of noncompetitive baseball again…
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
Well....
I don’t believe the market will be any less depressed this coming off season. I doubt that Abreu will be getting more money next year. If anything I’d guess free agents will even be getting less money next year.
what a doofus
every year people sign for peanuts and have monster years. That doesn’t mean you let valuable players go for nothing so you can try to spot them and sign them.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
exactly
and for every one of those guys you have many others who signed such deals and bombed. this year is more of an anomoly than a norm due to the crisis peaking exactly during the off season. JP is a epic idiot if he doesn’t realize that the economy will like you know, bounce back sometime in the future. if it only goes down, then professional baseball will be over anyway.
What does this do anyway? keep Doc? that’s nice and all , your still stuck with a replacement level CF making A-rod money, and questionable future at C / 3B / RF .
I would bet a king’s ransom that you won’t be able to find players of Bobby Abreu’s caliber signing for 1/5M this off season. in fact, you’d be lucky if that price doesn’t more than double.
JP lost my respect when he didn't deal The Good Doctor.
These moves regarding Rolen and Rios would have been great had we shipped off Doc as well. Now it’s just a joke…
I don't understand that really...
if there were only bad trades out there for Doc why would you want him traded?
the Red Sox made a reasonable offer
at least as a starting point, no?
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
anyway, they didn't sell it that way
JP said he was keeping Doc and planning to compete in 2010. Maybe it was just BS designed to keep the value of other chips like Rolen high, I don’t know, but it doesn’t really make sense that we’re going to compete in 2010 by letting Rios go for nothing. I could see us using the cash to resign Scutaro, but I thought that’s what the Rolen money was for. I would be extremely surprised if we sign anyone significant (other than resigning a few people) in the offseason.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
For about the tenth time on this damned website...
What constitutes a bad trade? I personally feel as if there were some excellent deals on the table. Teams rarely get full value in return for a single player they are looking to unload. Toronto ought to have taken the best offer and moved on with it, rather than have an ace who – quite frankly – has very little value on a club that won’t be making the playoffs anytime soon anyway.
And if the Jays had settle for a package like the Indians got for Lee people would be pissed, and it would have been a horrible trade. It has come out that the Indians basically took the best offer they could because they are super constricting payroll. I didn’t want the Jays to do that. I wanted them get at least something they deserve.
I don’t think Doc will lose that much value in the offseason, you let teams talk with him about a contract extension and all of a sudden the price is right back up there especially if the Mets and others get involved. Let’s say for instance the Sox drop out of the playoff race this year…. all of a sudden they pony up a massive package for Halladay to put em over the hump.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
only point i'll make is
I wanted them get at least something they deserve.
What they deserve is a hypothetical situation. What they can get is the answer.
I was wrong on Ricciardi. I thought a deal would happen, I admit that. Here’s the problem – it seems fairly clear that this team is gearing itself towards a rebuild. There’s some hope for next year, I guess, but let’s face it, it wasn’t too bright for the Jays BEFORE the moves … not with the Boston/Yankees/Rays, along with a rapidly developing Orioles squad. I think the chances of Halladay’s value being what it was at the trade deadline is a bit slim, although you never know (all it takes is one team). So … dump Rios, move Rolen (in a very solid trade) … and they are going to compete next year? Not impossible, but it’d take the ball bouncing in the right direction for the Jays, and going gutter for the other teams to win a division next year, imo. JP was, imo, trading like a fan in the Halladay deal … a smart GM recognizes and understands the market. I think Billy Beane gets a little too much hype, but one thing I’ll give him credit for is, the guy has a good understanding of the market. Doesn’t mean he gets the right guys or makes all the right moves … but he knows and understands value. I think it’s fair to question JP on that, particularly since he walked the dog out without much provocation. At least, with Towers last offseason on Peavy, you knew he was trapped with Peavy’s NTC and management’s orders.
Then again, all it takes is one team, so maybe there’s a team out there willing to fork it over. Btw, I’d be a tad surprised if the Red Sox pursued Halladay this offseason and sold the house. Theo has been smart about not mortgaging for a rental. I’ll be surprised if Theo offers up what he was rumored to be willing to shop this year.
sorry that didn't come out clear
What they deserve is certainly nice, but if it’s not realistic, and in this case, it wasn’t (the market clearly wasn’t what they expected it to be … ), then what is deserved is relatively meaningless in the entire equation.
Again, if the Jays let teams negotiate with him in the offseason he no longer becomes a rental and his value is that much higher. It is fairly standard practice for teams to let people do this with rental players and didn’t happen in this case because Halladay had a year and a half left.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
he might get a better deal in the offseason
he could not really have expected the Indians to dump off Lee at such a cheap price
that story is not over yet
Cheap price?
I think that narrative on the Indians trade has largely been debunked. Shapiro, who admittedly, hasn’t had many of his plans worked, got solid market value, and I’ve seen some national scribes give positive pub to the trade. After initially being slightly surprised by the trade, the more I think about it, the more sound it is for Cleveland from a value stance.
Simply put, elite pitching prospects rarely get moved anymore. The guys that do get moved are the guys like Carrasco and Sean Gallagher, guys with some “2” projection to them. They added a ridiculously high upside arm, along with 2 upper level chips, admittedly, perhaps value-inflated due to the “readiness” concept, but if the discussion is on the overall “price” of the deal, value is a necessary and key factor.
Overall, it’s actually a very solid market value, and hardly a cheap price. Whether one thinks they got the right players is another question. One more thing – they got two solid arms in a deal. That’s pretty solid in it’s own right in this day and age. I’m not saying the deal was great, but it’s hardly this “cheap price” that you are intimating.
Tell that to the Indians fans who are livid with the deal.
As bad as you think we have it imagine being an Indians fan, your team wins two CY Youngs in a row and then turns around and trades each pitcher after they win and to top it off you trade your all-star catcher.
The Indians are years away from competing and I doubt guys like Carrasco are going to help them compete any faster.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
no kidding
the Jays got a better return on Rolen than Cleveland did on Cliff Lee
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I would call this move by the Jays as
… ballsy
can I say that word in front of Hugo’s Mom?
makes financial sense
in the US, many folks have houses that are underwater. So for example, they own a house that is now worth $100k, that they might have paid $200k for a few years ago. Meanwhile, these folks have a $175k mortgage on that house, so they are underwater by $75k. If they think that it will not be for years, maybe decades until the house appreciates enough in value to cover the value of the mortage, then they just walk away. Why? Cuz financially it makes sense. (banks get stuck owning the house and the mortgage and a huge loss, but the govt gives them $700B to forget it all and taxpayers get reamed — but that is another story)
Similary, the Jays signed Rios for a big $70M contract at a time when the market for players of his caliber was higher and expectations for Rios’ appreciation were elevated. Since then, both prices for baseball talent and expectations as to Rios performance have fallen, so the Jays were effectively stuck with a “mortgage” on Rios’ services that was worth more than the actual services that the Jays could hope to receive in return.
Bottom line, from a strict financial perspective, dropping Rios makes sense. On balance, it is probably the right organizational move.
by aagoodfella on Aug 10, 2009 7:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
except that
if your mortgage is underwater, you only sell if you have to (assuming you can) because the bank is going to repossess your property. If you can afford to make the payments, you can afford to wait until the house’s value comes back up and that’s typically the smarter thing to do.
If you think the house will come back in value, that is. I think Rios will.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I put this caveat in there …
If they think that it will not be for years, maybe decades until the house appreciates enough in value to cover the value of the mortage, then they just walk away.
If it too long til the house recovers its value, it is smarter to walk away. If you bought your house right at the peak, it will probably not be 10-20 years til the value comes back (depending on the market), so it makes financial sense to walk away. If you bought your house before the run up, it is all paper gains and losses and is irrelevant.
Basically, the closer you bought your house to the peak in the market, the more likely that it is profitable for you to walk away. Same with baseball players. The closer to the spike in baseball wages you signed the contract, the more profitable it is to walk away. Also, the the expectations have diminished greatly from time of contract signing, it is profitable to walk away (assume there has not been hyperinflation in wages in the interim).
right
I ignored it because talking about home prices coming back in decades doesn’t make any sense
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
i have not crunched the case-shiller data since Sep 2008, but when I did then, the results indicated that if US residential real estate prices had grown at “normal” rates instead of inflated by “fake” mortgages it would have taken until July 2011, for housing prices to grow to where they were in Sep 2008. That is the overall average. However, there is a great degree in market variation. The bubble effect was greater in larger market. In the largest 10 metro mkts that Case-Schiller covers, the prices in Sep 2008 (again artifically inflated by fake mortages) had increased to where they would have been by May 2016 under normal growth conditions.
So, i think my comments make sense.
but even by the most distorted markets
7-8 years isn’t even one, let alone multiple, decades. And Rios’ deal, while you could say it occured at peak, it’s hardly so bad as to compared to the worst excesses of the housing bubble. I just don’t think it’s a very good analogy.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Aug 10, 2009 8:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
well, the most whacked out markets were in Florida, where for example Miami real estate prices ballooned to levels that implied normal growth until Dec 2021 and Tampa until Mar 2028. So these would qualify as decades. However, prices in these markets, I expect are gonna keep crashing. In fact, I just saw a newspaper article the other day about a condo owner in a tower in Miami who was the only resident in the entire building. The rest were vacant. Last year I was at the condo show in Toronto and there was an agent there who was saying “now is a great time to buy in Florida, prices are way down” and I was thinking “and they have a LOT lower to go”. Other huge inflated markets are NYC Feb 2029 and your hometown DC at October 2019. There are others. Mostly the big cities. Anyhow, those dates are pulling in fast as real estate prices have been tanking and I have not updated by analysis since Sep 2008, but now that you bring it up, perhaps I will update it in the next few weeks.
our prices haven't even gone down in DC
so I assume you must mean the surrounding area.
but my hometown is NYC.
Anyway, the point isn’t how distorted the market got in certain places. I fully agree with you there. It’s whether Rios’ contract was so bloated as to be compared to southern florida housing prices circa 2008. I don’t think it’s anywhere near that bad, and of course neither did Chicago. The most obvious difference is that no one would touch those houses at those prices now, and someone snapped Rios up right away.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
rios is a good player...
but in this market, he is getting paid like a great player. i agree with aagoodfella. they should be able to replace him with a cheaper version of himself, and use the extra money for something else.
Meh call my cynical, but with Rolens trade (which I think is a great deal for the record) and lack of free agent moves this past winter I doubt that the Jays really use the extra money.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
What kind of house is Wells, a grow op? It paid off for a while, made a tonne of money and then was left in ruins.
by BigTimeBlueJayFan on Aug 11, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
So I want to know what the hell is going on with the organization
What are we looking to do next? What is the point of hanging on to Halladay now if we traded Rolen and waived Rios. It’s pretty obvious we’re going to be rebuilding.
Halladay should be gone by...
Next July I would expect…
We are going to bring back the 92-93 Jays. Sign em’ all Joe!
by BigTimeBlueJayFan on Aug 11, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you friggin kidding me
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
Hey! Do you guys remember...
Two offseasons ago (I think) when Rios was rumored in a trade to the Giants for Lincecum? Sure wish that had happened!!
I twitch a little everytime someone brings this up. It was a rumour at the time that the Giants shot down, it wasn’t gonna happen.
But yeah would have been great. Unrealistic but great.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
So who is coming to Toronto to take up Rios's roster spot?
Snider? I hope not. I would like to keep him from being too expensive too soon.
Randy?
http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=457859
Aha… thanks.
A righthanded 1B/DH type. Kevin Millar can spend more time at the bench. Good. I would hate to see Cito over-use Millar.
I just find it hard to believe
that JP got absolutely nothing. I understand, if the White Sox say we’ll give you nothing take it or leave it you have to make a financial decision. But are you telling me that if there are teams out there willing to take his contract, you couldnt move him at the deadline for something? A conditional draft pick? a minor league base coach? Switching all our concessions to chicken(including beer)?
At this point the Sox had all the leverage(obviously) but they couldnt have known at the trade deadline they were the only team willing to take the contract(which may or may not have been true)
The only explanation i can think of is JP held him for 2 weeks until Snider could come up without qualifying for Super 2 in a couple years, which is just dumb,
JP got $58M in salary budget (unless Rogers eats it up) - it is not nothing
it is analogous to someone assuming your loan — the Jays just punted a $58M loan
I understand the salary savings that maybe they can use to sign other players to help improve.
But could they not get anything else of value from the White Sox? Prospects, draft picks? Was this not possible??
Colour me very confused.
Being a Leaf fan here requires one to be sufficiently lubricated... and truculent!
JP needs to be accoutable though
Yeah the Jays punted a bad loan – but this wan’t a loan the current management inherited. It’s a loan they made. And people can talk about how the market changed etc. but JP has had his share of “punting bad loans” (Thomas, Ryan, Rios, and I’ll assume he’d punt Wells too if there would be any team insane enough to take him).
At what point does someone run out of 5 year plans? I’m thinking year 8 is as good a time as any. Don’t tell me this team would be contending with Marcum and McGowan and Janssen – our team ERA is still competitive – and don’t tell me how much has changed since JP came riding into town talking about how he could compete with the Yankees and the Sox without spending all the money they do. Now all he does is mention how much money they spend (like it’s a suprise or something) and how he’s making moves to give the team ‘financial flexibility’, after it was his moves that cost him the financial flexibility in the first place!
A big part of being a good GM is to have a plan, a clue on what direction they want the team to go, and yes the good ones even have a “crystal ball” now and then (others might call it the ability to spot talent, value etc.). The last 8 years have shown, on balance, that JP does not possess these characteristics in the amount necessary to continue to run this club.
by touchemalljoe on Aug 10, 2009 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe Paul Beeston didn't like the contract with Rios?
Maybe it was a contract cooked up by Paul Godfrey?
Maybe baseball talent is difficult to predict and you sometimes make mistakes. Being the GM in Toronto means you need to fix your mistakes and you can’t just do so by asking the Boss for another 50 million. I actually like JP more and more now. His moves have been wise recently. That is, if this money is actually going to be used for something. Unfortunately for us Jays fans, the owners are invisible and difficult to predict. So it leaves us bloggers confused as to the direction of the team. It seems right now this team attracts a lot of journeymen for a year or two and develops a few good prospects and then either signs them to ridiculous contracts (for the fans) that cripples the team or ships them off and they become superstars (Chris Carpenter). It’s a revolving door.
We need a core (Hill, Lind, Halladay, Frasor). Build around that. Rogers needs to pony up some cash though and get this party started.
by BigTimeBlueJayFan on Aug 11, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Your joking on the draft pick right?
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
JohnnyG you are nitpicking
No the MLB has a stupid rule stating draft picks can’t be traded…but I am surprised as well that the Jays couldn’t get a mid level prospect back. Rios is not a bad player, and though not worth his contract; I don’t think he is far off off.
Question: if the Jays didn’t offer Rios an extension and when the contract was up Rios signed with another team, would they have received a 1st rounder, or a sandwich pick?
Additionally, JP has bought out 2 big contracts (Ryan and Thomas) and deserves some criticism for this. Tom may argue what he has done right (and it is more than most give credit for), but you can’t complain about a lack of resources then sign a reliever to a big contract (Billy Beane rule #1…though I know the reason was to bring noise to TO) and ridiculously overpay for a declining Thomas. Both cost the teams millions.
It’s hard to know if Rios would have made Type A status, I would have to think with Outfield being such a deep position I doubt it.
And if the Jays could of got something for him I bet they would have.
I imagine the White Sox claimed him for a couple reasons
1) They know the Jays were trying to shed payroll and thought there was a change they would let him walk
2) They were blocking Detroit
I agree completely that JP has made some dumb moves and I think he should be gone as well. I believe Tom thinks this as well. Our issue is when people say JP has done nothing right. And you hit the nail on the head when you said the reason to signing Ryan. Yes it was horrible contract, but it also helped the Jays to sign Glaus and AJ a week later. And while people bitched about the AJ contract. Looked great in retrospect at 11Mil a year (opt out clause sucked but it needed to be in there for him to come).
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
JP doing something right?
What???
No seriously…. he is very good at explaining “Meh” moves as great moves. And very good at keeping a job for eight years without drafting or signing a blue chip player.
Umm What the hell do you call Snider and Cecil? They are no longer ranked on baseball prospectus top lists because they don’t qualify as prospects anymore but the general consensus is that they are top prospects.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
Really sucks we got NOTHING...
…for someone with Rios’ talent.
Yeah, dumping his way overpriced contract to pick up better deals in the off-season is a good thing, but getting only a big goose egg in return when there’s still 50+ games left in the season is a terrible signal to the rest of the team and to you fans that you’ve already completely given up
Even if our chances of making the playoffs are tiny, you don’t sell tickets by waving the white flag so flagrantly and so early.
you mean the Jays are out of it? the chances for the playoffs are none? now it's official?
People were saying that before the All-Star break, some were saying it after the all-star break, and I remember at that time those people being mocked (for just spouting off as frustrated fans I guess). What was the offical cut-off date for it being acceptable to pronounce the Jays playoff chances over?
by touchemalljoe on Aug 10, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe I'm just too mathematical...
…there is around 1/3 of the season still left to go. The chances of winning a wild card spot from 9 games out are indeed very small, but not absolutely non-existent. Other teams have had 10 or 12-game winning streaks this season; that would not be a beyond the pale event for us. (Well, at least, it wasn’t before we traded Rolen for a couple of pitching prospects + E5, and Rios for a bag of resin…)
OK, besides being also mathematical, I’m a bit over-optimistic—but that’s at least part of being a sports fan, right?
We are fortunate...
The fact someone claimed him is a massive economic boost for this organization.. It’s important to know Chicago not only picked up Rios, but they are now fully responsible for the remaining $58 million left on Rios’ contract. It’s time to move forward and focus on rebuilding this club. We certainly have some very good building blocks already in place to take that next step.
"Sports is something you know, not something you should preach.'
It's not that massive of a boost...
…the $58 million is over the next 6 years (and should therefore be discounted appropriately).
If we completely crater for the rest of the year, we suffer lost tickets sales, including lost season ticket sales, which is lost money now.
I think we should’ve paid out the remainder of Rios’ salary for this year and then traded him and big contract off after or during a hot streak (which it looks like he was just brekaing into, BTW) that would pad his stats a bit, so as to receive at least some value for him.
Or we could have at least been less cheap and have agreed to pay some of his salary this year to receive a prospect or someone usable from the Sox in return.
geeze help me follow along
why were others mocked for “thinking that they are telling us something new”? But when others say the Jays playoff chances are over, are they not doing the same thing?
I think that Cito and Gene had had enough of trying to get Rios to stop hitting off his back foot. Now they’ll have more time to teach Johnny Mac how to hit.
Time will tell if I like this move. It all depends what they do with the money. Regardless of the success Rios has next year or not, I still think it’s wise to part ways. Rios is somewhat unpredictable and if they are really going for it next year then we can’t have unpredictability around.
by BigTimeBlueJayFan on Aug 11, 2009 12:34 AM EDT reply actions
It will sting if...
Rios goes out and goes 30-30 next year. Doubt it. But every Jay fan here knows it could happen. He has the talent…
my point was
i think its pretty obvious we could have got some kind of return a few weeks ago, on TOP of the salary relief that is being touted as another solid move by our GM. If i had said “we should trade Rios before the deadline” your answer would be either A)who will take his contract? or B) He is still too valuable to the club to let go for next to nothing. Well JP has shot both those answers down.
Perhaps he was too busy basking in Halladays reflective limelight to bother looking at moving a player he doubted was moveable? Thats probably untrue and i would never accuse the man of just plain not doing his job… but the only other explanation i can muster is what some others have suggested, a complete lack of planning or direction.
You don’t think they would have tried to trade him?
If a trade had gone done I bet the Jays would of had to pay some of his salary. This way they don’t. Even when the Sox claimed him (3 days ago) I have to imagine they spent time trying to work out a deal but it seems the Sox just refused and basically said take the salary relief or leave it, Up to you.
Look I am pissed we got nothing for him and I don’t think letting him walk was a good idea, but if you think this was all JP’s doing then you haven’t been paying attention.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
I wouldnt say i dislike JP as much as the local media in Toronto. However it seems the only reason to believe the Jays couldnt get anything is “Since it didnt happen, then it just wasnt there.” Maybe im a pessimist, but i just dont have that faith in Ricciardi anymore.
Obviously they would have tried to get something from the white sox now and had no leg to stand on. But at the trade deadline, when the white sox couldn’t have known they were the only option to dump the contract, its a different story. Hell, you said yourself that you think one of the main reasons the Sox pulled the trigger is to block Detroit… thats now 2 teams in a playoff race willing to take his full contract this year, and you cant get a single asset in return?
by ucantcoachthat on Aug 11, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe we should give the Sox Credit
Maybe they knew Toronto didn’t want his salary..and played the waiting game…see if they can Rios for nothing and were very stingy at the table..
we may have witnessed a nice game of chess between these two teams =O
by bowling_kid25 on Aug 11, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think the Sox did well in this either...
I think this was kind of a lose-lose… Jays fans feel like crap that he is gone, Sox fans have an expensive player for 6 years.
I agree with Johnny that this came from above JPs head and that he definitely tried to get something back. I fully believe that JP did the best job here, it just sucks.
Wow… I had something nice to say…
Maybe I read too much Into JP's Comments but..
he said they have financial Flexibility to know fill what he believes are the 2 holes in the lineup. The catcher and the shortstop. Does that mean Scoot and barajas are gone? scoot isn’t exactly a hole..but maybe he was saying it with regards to the future…to me it sounded like he’s going to go after someone “better”
Whos out there for a FA SS though?
Orlando Cabrera (35)
Alex Cora (34)
Craig Counsell (39)
Bobby Crosby (30)
Adam Everett (33)
Chris Gomez (39)
Alex Gonzalez (32) – $6MM mutual option with a $500K buyout
Khalil Greene (30)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (34)
John McDonald (35)
Marco Scutaro (34)
Miguel Tejada (36)
Omar Vizquel (43)
Jack Wilson (32) – $8.4MM club option with a $600K buyout
I am not sure anywhere there is better then Scoot.
Same for Catchers
Brad Ausmus (41)
Paul Bako (38)
Rod Barajas (34)
Josh Bard (32)
Michael Barrett (33) – club option
Henry Blanco (38)
Ramon Castro (34)
Sal Fasano (38)
Toby Hall (34)
Ramon Hernandez (34) – $8.5MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Jason Kendall (36)
Jason LaRue (36)
Victor Martinez (31) – $7.7MM club option with a $250K buyout
Bengie Molina (35)
Jose Molina (35)
Miguel Olivo (31) – $3.25MM mutual option
Mike Redmond (39)
Ivan Rodriguez (38)
Brian Schneider (33)
Yorvit Torrealba (31) – $4MM mutual option with a $500K buyout
Javier Valentin (34)
Jason Varitek (38) – $5MM club/$3MM player option plus incentives
Vance Wilson (37)
Gregg Zaun (39) – $2MM club option with a $500K buyout
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
Definetly get Sal =D
Ive always been a big fan of the Molina’s..as slow as they are..they are pretty damn decent i was sad when the angels got rid of Bengie =(
I noticed a lot of old catchers…wonder if theres a whole bunch of decent young ones coming up soon…we could see lots of E2’s in years to come!!
by bowling_kid25 on Aug 11, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
my guess is that they will use some of the money to try to
resign Scoot and Barajas and the rest will go wherever the Burnett money went. I don’t see the Jays being big players on the free agent market at all this offseason, nor should they be. Even with the market depressed, free agent contracts are rarely a good deal for the acquiring team.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Coworker of mine is convinced the Jays are going to go hard after Bay. I disagreed.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
I don't understand why people think that
Bay is an American now. He married an American, his kids were born and live in America, and he got naturalized as a US Citizen, which under US law, means you have renounce your old citizenship (though I don’t think that’s all that strictly enforced). He didn’t grow up a Blue Jays fan, and there’s no reason to think he would accept a penny less (like most Americans, he’d likely want more) to play for the Jays. Of course the Jays could get him, but they’d have to outbid the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, and all the other big money teams, and I just don’t see that happening.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I didn't think you had to renounce Canadian citizenship....
I thought you were allowed to have both.
I'm pretty sure that's incorrect
I have a lot of family members who are naturalized citizens, and they all had to renounce their Italian citizenship (though I think they could potentially reapply for it at some point). US law allows you to have dual citizenship if you have it from birth or if you are a US citizen and later become a citizen of another country (you don’t have to give up your US citizenship) but I think if you are naturalized, you can’t keep your citizenship of origin.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Oh ok...
I thought the deal was different with Canada, my wife’s sister was there for almost 20 years but never gave up the Canadian citizenship.
I'm not aware that there are any exceptions, but could be
did she get naturalized? I’m far from an expert, but I think if you are H-1B status it’s relatively uncomplicated to get your permanent residence in the US, which doesn’t require naturalization. Or, of course, if you marry an American. Or the Free Trade Visa under NAFTA (TN Status) can be renewed indefinitely, I think – if you qualify.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Just did some Googling...
…it appears that although the oath requires you to state that you don’t owe allegiance to any other state, it appears that in practice, the U.S. does not actually check if you’ve formally given up your your citizenship, passport, etc. under your other country—especially important, since there are some not-so-nice countries that do not ever allow you to voluntarily give up your citizenship with them; EG Syria.
So I would say that it’s not enforced at all, especially after the law enacted during the Clinton Administration that does not require you to pledge to reside permanently in the U.S…
right, that's what I thought
they don’t enforce you actually going through the process of dropping your previous citizenship, but you have to renounce it and the US doesn’t recognize it as “dual” citizenship.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by "renounce"
I just meant the public oath you take, not actually turning in your citizenship or passport of your prior country. Sorry if that was unclear.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
And I would've responded that this means...
…that because it is never formally enforced, the requirement to renounce one’s old citizenship for naturalization is therefore essentially meaningless—unless you happened to be a very high profile person, like, say a politician . . . or a multi-million dollar major league baseball star player. =S
haha, exactly. And
it’s not meaningless if you take your oath of citizenship seriously, but I suppose it’s unrealistic to think that someone receiving the benefits and privileges of United States citizenship takes their sworn oath seriously. =)
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
my understanding is
that the US govt asks naturalized citizens to renounce their old citizenship
but in Canada’s case, they do not recognize the renouncement … and since Canadian govt is the one with jurisdiction over CDN citizenship, it is their recognition that matters
by aagoodfella on Aug 11, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
yep
I doubt Bay has much affinity to Canada at this point — and again, IMHO, i think Jays should focus on players who help the team win not be chasing players on the basis of national origin
anecdotally, i heard that if BoSox did not wave $$$ at him, he would prefer to go back to west coast (Mariners) near where he grew up in BC - but that is probably speculation so not sure how much weight I would attach to it
by aagoodfella on Aug 11, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
So I was thinking about the other end of this deal....
I really still think Chicago put in this claim to block Detroit since they were looking to get a corner outfielder. This along with Peavy means they have picked up 100mil in Salary….
How do people think Rios will play under Guillen? Do you think Guillens tough attitude will make a better impact on Rios or will it make his sometimes gaffes worse?
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
Rios' contract isn't that bad
and he’ll play center field for them, which will actually make him quite a bargain even assuming he produces at his career levels, and of course he still has some upside. It’s a lot of money for them to take on, but they’ve got some cash coming off the books this offseason and virtually no farm system left, so they don’t have much choice but to take on vets at this point.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Chi Sox, I was looking at their Roster, have 5 outfielders now!
by aagoodfella on Aug 11, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Rios in CF
The OF looks pretty good for them. Quinten, Rios and Dye in the OF. Podsednik is a good veteran baserunner/pinch hitter off the bench. Wise could replace Quinten defensively. I’m not sure if they would take AB’s away from Thome.
I just got WGN, so it will be fun to watch the game tonight.
Yeah it pretty much makes Dye’s option a no go.
And I wasn’t saying Rios contract was that bad, I was combining it total with Peavy.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
I have a feeling they will pick up Dye's option
Thome will be the one to go. He is up after this year as well.
The Jays can then sign him to a 2 year 18 mil contract and release him next August.
i think it will be fascinating to see what kind of wage deflation, assuming that happens, we see in MLB this offseason
by aagoodfella on Aug 11, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
but not centerfielders
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I'm on Waivers...
Hoping another MLB team picks me up to be their fan.
- Finding out Doc wasn’t traded was one thing I wasn’t too upset about it seemed to signal that the Jays would go for it in 2010
- 2 minutes later I found out the Jays traded Rolen to the Reds for no glove-no bat EE and 2 prospects signaled rebuild…
- 10 days later finding out the Jays GAVE AWAY their most physically gifted player who is doing OK this year buy by all accounts if having an off year signaled that the Jays management is in disaray.
I would prefer the team to come out and say “We’re shedding ourselves of large contracts and building for a brighter future” rather then not saying anything at all or spinning these moves as good.
They were supposed to have a team built on pitching and defence, yet they unloaded 2 of their best defenders and replaced them with lesser defenders and lesser hitters and will likely deal their only legitimate MLB starter in the offseason…what will this team be built on now?
Doc is hardly the Jays only legitimate starter
but I can’t disagree with anything else you’ve written.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
The other think I'd like to add is
That as much as I dis-like JP as the gm of the team this move shouldn’t be pinned on him. This was not a baseball move by any means it was a 100% financial move forced on my the suits at Rogers Inc. I think the Jays need a new GM and thought about it long before this season or this one move. But there is NO WAY a baseball mind would make this move if the wasn’t forced to by the higher ups.
what the Jays do with the freed up money will ultimately determine if this was a good move or not
having somebody assume your $59M liability is not nothing … the Jays got plenty
by aagoodfella on Aug 11, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
FA outfielders from mlbtraderumors.com
you like any of these? (we can already scratch one off the list?)
Left fielders
Garret Anderson (38)
Marlon Anderson (36)
Jason Bay (31)
Emil Brown (35)
Carl Crawford (28) – $10MM club option with a $1.25MM buyout
Johnny Damon (36)
David Dellucci (36)
Cliff Floyd (37)
Matt Holliday (30)
Jacque Jones (35)
Gabe Kapler (34)
Greg Norton (37)
Wily Mo Pena (28)
Manny Ramirez (38) – $20MM player option
Dave Roberts (38)
Fernando Tatis (35)
Center fielders
Rick Ankiel (30)
Rocco Baldelli (28)
Marlon Byrd (32)
Mike Cameron (37)
Endy Chavez (32)
Coco Crisp (30) – $8MM club option with a $500K buyout
Darin Erstad (36)
Ryan Freel (34)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (34)
Reed Johnson (33)
Andruw Jones (33)
Gabe Kapler (34)
Mark Kotsay (34)
Corey Patterson (30)
Scott Podsednik (34)
Right fielders
Bobby Abreu (36)
Jermaine Dye (36) – $12MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout
Brian Giles (39)
Vladimir Guerrero (34)
Eric Hinske (32)
Geoff Jenkins (35) – $7.5MM mutual option with a $1.25MM buyout
Gabe Kapler (34)
Austin Kearns (30) – $10MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Jason Michaels (34)
Xavier Nady (31)
Magglio Ordonez (36) – $15MM club/vesting option with a $3MM buyout
Randy Winn (36)
Did I miss something? Who can just cross right off the list?
Wanna hear something crazy? I have heard talk about the Rays not picking up the option on Crawford because of money issues and the rest of their young players coming up. I can’t see it happening but I know I read it somewhere….
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
is there a no-trade clause or something
because wouldn’t it make sense for them to pick him up and trade him anyway?
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I WANT GUERRERO!!!
Of course im a Jays/Angels fan..so i love Vlady..i want him to stay in LA but if he doesn’t T.O would be the next best place to land =)
and yeah yeah “hes too old, hes too injured” shh dont say it its not true if you dont see it!!
if he makes 300/30/100 again…after this rollercoaster year..ill ask him to have my babies
oh crap..forgot to reply..JohnnyG dont hurt me =(
by bowling_kid25 on Aug 11, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
jUST CASUE u dont have a man crush
cause you so negative doesn’t mean you can’t know about others!!!! =D =D =D
by bowling_kid25 on Aug 11, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
According to this nutcase http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/12048139/rss
We dont have a chance with or without Rios so we shuldnt be talkinga bout signing anyone.
How a writer can declare a team out of contention AND placing 5th in the divison next year, before this one is even done..baffles me
The media pplz need to have a test for writers to not let these dumb guys in
guys in the Toronto sports media sometimes write stuff that is so ridiculous you know are doing it just to agitate, create controversy and thus drive readership
by aagoodfella on Aug 11, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
interesting article
I think he is a bit overly gung-ho on the Baltimore Orioles. The Os do have some good players, but they have way more holes in their lineup than the Jays.
The Jays could be a better hitting club next year if Snider comes up, stays up and plays to his potential. I think this point was overlooked in the analysis.
As far as the AL East goes, the Yanks are getting old the BoSox are far from perfect and both face some free agent losses in the offseason.
Gaining the playoffs is not an impossibility next year, but may require a couple of off-season moves.
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