Pathetic? Is that the right word? Dreadful? Dismal? Awful?

by Tom Dakers on Aug 30, 2009 4:50 PM EDT in Game Recaps Comment 67 comments

Blue Jays 0 Zip. Goose egg. Nothing. Red Sox 7

I don't really want to talk about that game. Nothing was good, Doc was poor. The offense was just awful. The defense wasn't much better. Adam Lind had a good day, I guess. Jesse Carlson pitched a perfect inning again, he's having a good little run. And Marco Scutaro played, which was nice to see two days after he was hit in the head with a pitch.

Oh one more thing I do want to say about the game. Why do we bunt down by 4 runs? With Marco Scutaro? It makes no sense.

Jay of the Day? Yeah right, of course there isn't a Jay of the Day. Suckage? Doc is the only one with Suckage numbers (-.191) but really the whole team gets the Suckage award.

Are we a bad team or a good team that's quit? Maybe we are a bad team that has quit. It is hard to expect much from a team that has John McDonald playing third.

Someone make the case for not firing Cito Gaston. I can't. He is supposed to be a great hitting coach. We aren't hitting at all. He's supposed to be a 'player's manager'. 'Players like playing for him' we are told time and time again. But they have quit on him.

And why wouldn't you quit. There is no accountability at all. Kevin Millar can't hit and can't field. No problem. Bat him clean up. Rod Barajas has hit nothing since May 1st? That's ok, put him out there everyday anyway. He's a free agent you know, gotta have him out there so he can get a good contract next year (just an aside, isn't that the dumbest thing you've heard? We have to play him because he's a free agent and he needs a good contract. Can you say 'self defeating strategy' boys and girls?). Vernon Wells hasn't hit all season? Let's have him in the middle of the lineup everyday anyway. Jose Bautista has forgotten how to swing the bat? That's ok, let's just send him out there and hope he walks.

Being a player's manager is all good and fine and all but there has to be some accountability. If players know there is nothing they can do to get play themselves out of the lineup, then why play hard? Why not mail it in. Well, you can see how it works.

What does Cito do well? Picking lineups? Ummmm no. In game strategy? No. Lighting a fire under players that are under performing? Nope. How about manage the bullpen. No again. Does he do a great job of preparing the team for games? No. Do the batters have a plan at the plate? Doesn't seem like it.

He is a nice guy, but being a good guy isn't the first thing I look for in a manager. Like Torgen said in yesterday's game thread 'just like it isn't something you look for in a first baseman'.

Anyway, someone make the case for keeping Cito.

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Making a case for Cito

Past Glories?!!! To me the one weakness Gaston has is his horrendous HORRENDOUS bullpen management. I mean i`m sorry but Brandon League SUCKS, he`s way too erratic and Carlson was good last year but now seems way too hitable. Why the hell Cito insists on using these guys instead of guys like Hayhurst and Accardo(who I like a lot) i`ve no idea. Personnel`s just the beginning though. It`s well documented I know but Mr.G has ZERO idea of when a pithcer`s tiring, who to replace him with andat what time. I mean it happens over and over again….Quality start, the guy`s left in, he leaves guys on base, relieved by X who gives up runs.

This team has NO comebackability(lol) whatsoever, horrible relief and a fill in closer. The sad truth is I think, that if we don`t re-tool on a massive scale then this team`s destined to fight it out with the orioles to be the worst in the ALE (ironic because you need to be drunk right now to watch the Jays)

by voidhelix on Aug 30, 2009 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He's not good. But this is a bad team.

And I’ve maintained that, even back in April and May. To not trade Halladay was idiotic. But still, many on this website argued that with him we could compete in 2010. Not a chance in hell.

I’m sticking to my position… blow this team up, start over. Keep the young pitching, Hill, Lind, and Snider. Move on.

by JaysFanInKS on Aug 30, 2009 5:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

blow the team up? what the heck kind of plan is that? makes about as much sense as going to the plate with no plan.

first off, anybody you want to get rid of is FA or ARB next year anyway .. Millar, Bautista, Macdonald, Barajas, Chavez … so they are going anyhow

folks you say to keep are already under contract Lind, Hill, Snider. You probably want to sign Vespa too if you can get a good deal. Wells you are stuck with no matter what. I am really not sure how to move Encarnacion – probably stuck. So there is nothing to “blow up” in terms of fielders.

I cannot think of any pitchers the Jays should really be dumping in a hurry unless they have replacements lined up — Camp, Carlson, Hayhurst, Accardo, League, Roenicke … they are kind of interchangeable. Sometimes they are good, sometimes they are bad. None have separated themselves from the pack.

Changes need to be made, but I do not think blow up is really even possible

by aagoodfella on Aug 30, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No Case

The whole offence aside from Lind, Hill and Snider needs to be gone. We have absolutely nothing now and nothing to look forward too in terms of prospects. Halladay needs to be traded for some HITTING prospects because our young pitchers look good especially Marc R. But the offence is absolutely putrid and we need to get someone who can actually hit the damn ball. Letting rios go was the first step, Vernon needs to go and money needs to be spent on free agents.

by LeafFan1989 on Aug 30, 2009 6:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I dont think you can make a solid case for cito staying,in all honesty.

I have watched them all year and I remember back in the good years when cito was with the team in the 90,s his expertise was never in the area of pitcher selection.,utilization of the bull pen,or when to pull a pitcher when he was in trouble.
How many games this year, did we lose to horrible pitching by jesse carlson that we had overwhelming LEADS,not by one or two runs but score like 8-3,and night after night he was allowed to come in and blow it…….and you cant blame the pitcher he was left in time and time again after he fell apart.If this isnt the responsibility of a manager Whose is it. Other managers like Francona would pull a guy after giving up a run or two and not wait till the game was lost to make a switch.BUT NOT CITO….he waits till the game is blown then tosses the pitcher .DIRECTION needs to flow from the top not the bottom up.I THINK theres a reason why cito never coached any teams but the blue jays.,and in all liklihood wont be managing any other teams in the future.

by abluejaysinceexhibitionstadium on Aug 30, 2009 7:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

To be fair...

he got stuck with a really crappy team, and a pitching staff riddled with injuries. It’s hard to manage the bullpen well when you need to go to them every single day, and using them that much just makes the opponent’s scouting report that much better. Maybe if our rotation was healthy we wouldn’t have so many issues out there.

In terms of hitting, Cito is considered to be a great hitting coach, but chances are he’s not able to take the same amount of time as an actual hitting coach to help with the offence. That’s why Gene Tenace is there. Also, you need guys who can actually hit consistently in the lineup. Other than Scoot, Hill, and Lind we’ve got no one doing that. So Cito’s doing the best he can with what he’s got, and let’s just face it, he could still be doing much worse than he has. Could he be doing better? Of course, but when you play the yanks and red sox as many times as the jays do, your loss column will probably be inflated a bit.

by crackerz_86 on Aug 31, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love Cito, but in all honesty, his time may be near.

I really do think managing has cost this team many games this season with bad lineups, poor bull pen usage and bad 3-0 takes (assuming that is coming from the bench), etc.

That said, Cito has been screwed by bad play by Rios (he is even dragging down the White Sox), Wells, Encarnacion and Dellucci, and horribly inconsistent play by Millar, Overbay and Barajas. However, Cito should have managed around this better by moving poor performers down in the order or splitting them up so you do not get 2 consecutive outs etc …

However, it is tough to put together a good record when only a handful of players have good seasons including Hill, Vespa and Lind.

Bull pen players have been inconsistent including Carlson, Camp, and League. Heck, even Accardo, Hayhurst and Roenicke have been all over. However, whenever they were bad, Cito left them in too long.

Starting pitching has been injury afflicted and characterized by rookies learning the MLB ropes. However, considering these constraints, starting pitching has done well.

I would conclude by saying that the 2009 Jays roster performance has made managing the team an exceptionally challenging job for a Manager this year. Did Cito meet that challenge? I do not think so. As such, Cito may have proved that he is a good manager but not a great manager. So before pulling the trigger on Cito, I would say, that unless you have a GREAT manager lined up, getting rid of Cito and replacing him with another good manager will not accomplish anything for the Jays except useless symbolism.

Cito has already indicated he is probably out after 2010 but willing to assist in transition. I think the best course of action is to start lining up a replacement and have that person work with Cito to facilitate a transition. This could be achieved by mid-2010 season.

As I posted elsewhere, I think a guy like Rance Mulliniks has great baseball knowledge. Folks complained he lacked experience. But really, you think a guy with 15 years of MLB experience cannot set a roster, manage a bull pen, help hitters with a pre-AB plan and get the team on the winning track? Please. The guy is obviously very very savvy about the game.

The alternatives are
(1) blow Cito out and get another GOOD mgr which gets the Jays nowhere, since they are a hard-to-manage team right now
(2) blow Cito out and get a GREAT mgr, which would be awesome, but unless the team have an excellent candidate right now this is a statistically unlikely outcome
(3) keep Cito around and take advantage of his offer to transition to a new manager so the Jays can develop a good manager into a GREAT manager … this, IMHO, is the smartest PLAN and really the only one that is both realistic and addresses the Jays’ needs

by aagoodfella on Aug 30, 2009 7:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Oh yeah I think a guy with experience playing the game could have trouble managing.

I’ve seen guys go from the TV booth to manage teams before. I’m not sure that I’ve seen it work. Rance doesn’t really impress me that much. If he did want to be a manager he’d get a job managing somewhere. There are hundreds of them in the minors. I’m not sure if he has ever been even a batting coach or anything else in the 15 years of so he’s been out of the game.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 30, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

most seem to be in agreement

that Cito is far from a “great” manager. In fact you say yourself that he’s “good” but not “great.”

I thus fail to see how exactly he would be the one to mentor a potentially “good” manager into a potentially “great” manager.

In fact, if I had a potentially “great” manager candidate either within the organization or waiting in the wings, and having seen what Cito has to offer so far this year, I would want to keep that candidate as far away from Cito as possible.

He did a decent job with an incredibly talented base that had the luxury of getting the best rentals and free agents money could buy parachuted in to fill the gaps. If we had such a team right now and all we needed was someone to “let them play” he might do well. Maybe the Yankees will call him at some point, who knows. Things are, needless to say, a bit different now and I think it’s time for a different style.

by voodoomusic on Aug 30, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just a point of interest...

Tony La Russa’s contract in St. Louis is up after this year… maybe we take a run at him. If we’re successful it could help the rebuilding process (although it’s highly unlikely he’s going anywhere)

by crackerz_86 on Aug 31, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh and dont blame Johnny Mac

he went 2 for 4 today

by aagoodfella on Aug 30, 2009 7:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Painful

Just painful to watch games like these. And about Cito, there are no excuses, but aagoodfella makes a really good point, and i would assume jays will just keep him until new and better manager comes along… or so we hope.

by Outz on Aug 30, 2009 8:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

We can get on Cito's case all we want...

But last time I checked, he wasn’t the one going out and throwing the ball or swinging the bat. Ok, given he makes some questionable decisions at times, but when your pitching isn’t pitching and your hitting isn’t hitting, that isn’t entirely the manager’s fault.

by Icedragon on Aug 30, 2009 9:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He's supposed to be a great hitting coach....

why are so few of our guys hitting like they should.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 30, 2009 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

cuz the guys hitting are not good hitters.

by syc on Aug 30, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok.....

Saying ‘it isn’t entirely the manager’s fault’ doesn’t make a case for keeping him.. I mean….I’m not a dope, I know it’s not all his fault. What I’d like is someone to tell me why he should be manager. If the best we can do is that then, well we ain’t making a case for him.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 30, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Firing Cito is called brush firm mgmt. You have no plan, you have no strategy, just every time a problem fires up, you stamp it out. Firing Cito is just stamping out a brushfire. And what will you get for it? Punting Cito out the door will just leave the Jays scrambling for someone new who will only yield better results if Jays happen to get lucky and get a good mgr. (Unless of course the Jays have a plan of succession, but the way they are run, I doubt it). You might as well throw darts at a dartboard.

The Jays should set up a planning committee. What kind of team do they want to be? What is the best strategy to win in the tough AL East? Who is going to get you there? Find that strategy. Get a list of candidates that fit that strategy. Interview them. Find the best fit. Bring them in. Take advantage of Cito’s offer to facilitate the transition. Cito can help the new mgr. understand the organization, the personalities throughout the system .. coaches, mgmt, scouts, trainers, minor league staff etc. And then when Cito transition is over, the new manager will be up to speed and effective.

Reactionary terminations are just bad mgmt.

by aagoodfella on Aug 31, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've never seen a manager kept around to help the next manager

I doubt you could get a decent manager to come in in that sort of situation.If you hire someone decent they will make take their own impressions of the people around them. And you would be creating all sorts of troubles with people wondering who is boss. It doesn’t work with baseball. You want someone to talk to him about the organization, use the GM.

And really it would only be ‘brush firm management’ if there were something Cito did that was worth keeping him around. Right now would be a good time for an interim manager, unless you can point to something Cito does that makes him worth keeping. Teams do that all the time if they figure the manager at the moment isn’t doing the job. Fire the manager, have a caretaker manager finish out the year or out the time till someone right is chosen.

I guess what I was hoping to get is an idea of what Cito is doing well.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 31, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

because cito's not the hitting coach

he doesn’t have enough time to monitor everyone’s approach. Gene Tenace is the hitting coach but he’s obviously not doing a very good job.

by crackerz_86 on Aug 31, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fire Cito?

OK, Cito was a genius for the first month and a half and now is he one of the main reasons for the Blue Jays’ sinking ship?

Let’s be honest the Blue Jays are not a good team this year. Yes, they have lost a lot of close games but there is so much a manager can do. The Jays have not been blown away in many games this year, but no matter what the manager does and no matter the bit below average performance of the bullpen, there is no way to bail this offense. Outside Hill and Lind, there is no clear nor present danger in this lineup.

The jays superb starting and relief pitching just masked the problem last year. An offensive funk is something that lasts weeks or months at worse, this has gone on for two seasons. This is not Cito’s fault, this is the fault of the man that put the team together.

by wadcanshuur on Aug 30, 2009 9:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ok.,the question is make the case for keeping him.

if the case is we are losing close games, that’s not really making a case. What does he do well enough that you would say ‘he should be manager’.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 31, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Solution: Hire a new president (or Beeston announces that he stays long term)

New president = new GM
New GM = new Manager

Otherwise, JP and Cito stay until the end of their contracts (2010) and never return. I don’t think either would return, even if offerred a contract extension anyway.

However, if 2010 is the yearit might be difficult to pull off with Cito managing.

Plus they’d need:
1) Starting pitching to perform as well or better than this year
2) Bullpen to perform like it’s 07 or 08 form
3) Vernon to hit the darn ball!
4) Hill and Lind to continue to progress
5) Snider to have a big breakout year
6) Sign a legit big bat that will pound out at least 30-35 HR and can take a walk
7) Resign Scutaro and hope he keeps his eye at the plate and his D.
8) Hope that the older Red Sox and Yankees start showing their age by regressing and getting caught with the injury bug.

Possible, but not likely.

by REMO on Aug 30, 2009 9:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It's really noticeable this year...

…that you’re right, they really aren’t even trying anymore. The Gibbons teams, even when they were 10-15 games out at this time, always played hard, entertaining baseball right through the end of the season and usually wound up with 80-85 wins. This team looks like it will be lucky to get 70. You get absolutely no sense that these guys are enjoying themselves right now, and it’s coming through in the hitting…Lind and Hill are only hitting well because they’re too talented not to.

by snaptoit on Aug 30, 2009 9:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

the really sad part

is that now that Doc has also decided to quit (I can’t 100% blame him, I know he’s been through a lot, but I did expect better out of such a supposedly stand-up guy), with a few more starts like this going into the offseason his trade value is going to be half of what it was a month ago.

Not that I would expect the Jays to know how to do anything other than sell low, but it’s going to be a real bloodbath around here when we end up trading him for less than what the Indians got for Lee. Or even better—insulted by the lowball offers coming our way, we once again take our Doc and go home, he continues to pitch with great indifference through another losing season and then walks at the end of 2010. We get two draft picks (who likely won’t be signed) and Doc goes on to stardom elsewhere. Awesome.

Pretty bleak, but I’ve given up hoping for anything but the worst-case scenario with this team. The only upside to any of this is that I think if things get ugly enough Rogers might look to unload the team, and that is the only real hope for something better.

by voodoomusic on Aug 30, 2009 10:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It is really getting to me to keep seeing the “Likely won’t sign” crap in regards to our picks. This is the first year we have any sort of problems and yes it was a major problem with 3 of top 5 picks not signing, but come on you can’t reasonable expect it to happen every year especially since it hadn’t happened before this

Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...

by JohnnyG on Aug 30, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

this year was probably an outlier

because clearly the direction and budgeting changed between the draft and the signing deadline. No other explanation makes sense. They signed these guys knowing the price and were willing to pay, then Rogers decided the team was going on an austerity plan and that made the signings impossible.

I don’t think there will be any more over-slot signings in the near future, so the problem will gradually go away, but we’re still left with at least three “extra” high-round picks next year, plus a couple more potentially if they don’t resign Scutaro (which I don’t expect to happen given that he is 34 and we are miles from contention, so what’s the point). Even paying slot or less, I don’t see Rogers ponying up the money for all those picks. That means compensatory picks in 2011, plus the picks we get from Doc if he is not traded plus picks from any other free agent to be (not sure right now if there are any; I would assume we would probably try to unload them via trades first in any case). Same situation, not everyone gets signed.

It’s a crappy situation, but unfortunately with this stupid “do-over” rule MLB has made it far too easy for teams like the Jays to turn the draft into a big game of “wait ’til next year.”

by voodoomusic on Aug 31, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

good point

the self-pitying waa waa of “nobody will sign with us” or “nobody wants to play in Toronto” - many great players and hall of famers have been happy to play for the Jays …

go cry on your mama’s apron with that sad sack stuff, it is irritating

if the Jays want to tell grabby unqualifieds to go screw themselves cuz they are looking to jack the organization than good for them

by aagoodfella on Aug 31, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i doubt Doc has decided to quit

by aagoodfella on Aug 31, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The only argument I can come up with

is that three months ago we were all singing his praises.

And then of course there is the argument about replacement. It’s a little late to be changing horses in mid-stream, and what horse would you recommend we hop on?

That being said, the current horse ain’t getting us across this stream, so if that other one has any chance at all, it’s a better chance than we currently have.

/end silly horse analogy

I’m not sure we can say the players have simply quit. We were never going to be the class of the league this season, and with the injuries/acquisitions we are not as good of a team as we were in May. We got schooled by one of the best teams in the league this weekend. It sucks, but surely it has less to do with the players giving up, and more to do with the quality of players on each team.

But that’s not exactly making a case for Cito, is it?

I am a Free Canadian
Real Eyes Realize Real Lies

by Temujin on Aug 30, 2009 10:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah....

That’s to problem….I wanted someone to make the case for him. So far the best case is ‘it isn’t entirely the manager’s fault’. Which yeah is true and all, but doesn’t make the case for keeping him as manager. I likely didn’t explain clearly but I wanted someone to tell me why he should be manager, because I wasn’t able to come up with anything. So far, I see I’m not alone.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 30, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Then I'm afraid

I got nothing for ya, pal.

His calming influence certainly isn’t helping the players, and that’s the only feature of Cito I can think of right now.

I am a Free Canadian
Real Eyes Realize Real Lies

by Temujin on Aug 30, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

To be fair

I remember plenty of posts on here saying we were winning in spite of Cito and not because of him. So we weren’t always singing his praises.

Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...

by JohnnyG on Aug 30, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

good point

I am a Free Canadian
Real Eyes Realize Real Lies

by Temujin on Aug 30, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A couple of things...

#1. Dakers, they are playing Rod Barajas a lot so he can become a class B free agent, and reap a compensation pick at the end of the year.

#2, Voodoomusic, I’m tired of reading this BS about Doc quitting on this team. He had a 36:5 K/BB last month, a fantastic ratio, and that was against the best teams in baseball every start. This entire “swoon” of his has everything to do with a high BABIP (or for the less statistically inclined, bad luck), and nothing to do with how much he cares. What a load of shit.

by Brad Fullmer Fan on Aug 31, 2009 3:29 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

as much as I love K:BB, FIP, WAR, TWK, and LFS

I also sometimes like to just watch the games, and when I do I come to the inescapable conclusion that Doc is not the same (physically or mentally). I’ve also seen quite a bit of evidence suggesting that he’s lost velocity. So while whether he’s quit or not can be argued, I don’t think it’s really a BABIP issue at this point.

by voodoomusic on Aug 31, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

is there a statistic to measure how many shallow outfield bloopers have been hit against him? it seems he has been blooped a lot lately?

by aagoodfella on Aug 31, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't offer Barajas arbitration unless I'd already traded for a full time catcher

I’d be worried he’d accept.

They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.

by Torgen on Aug 31, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And Cito?

Well managers don’t make much of a difference, anyway. Clearly he’s much worse than Gibbons in the area of in-game management, but he’s not making us lose these games.

The fact that we dumped 2 of our best players for nothing is what killed this team in August.

by Brad Fullmer Fan on Aug 31, 2009 3:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If youre suggesting that we dumped Rolen for nothing

Then you obviously arent paying much attention.

Also, having a team where Alex Rios this year is one of your best players = not good news.

Onions Baby Onions

by ohmybosh on Aug 31, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i doubt most folks would characterize Rios as one of the best players this year

most folks would say he is one of the biggest problems

by aagoodfella on Aug 31, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm still looking for a reason why he should be manager

if the best we can do is ‘managers don’t make a difference’ we aren’t winning.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 31, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Roy Halladay

Yeah, Doc didn’t look good versus the Red Sox. It looks even worse when we compare Doc to, well, Doc. However, when you compare Doc to, say, the other 90% of pitchers in the MLB, he still looks pretty good.

The last three starts, he’s having some issues with location on his sinker/cutter, leaving balls just a bit more out over the plate than usual, and his curveball isn’t biting as hard. He’s also been squeezed by the home plate umpire on two of those starts pretty bad, and has been on the wrong end of just some unlucky hits against a team that has hot bats right now. Not to play the apologist for Doc, but let’s put things into perspective. He is still the best in the league, but he’s pitching in front of a weakened defense, for a team that ‘lackluster’ is a charitable way to describe them, and has caught some bad breaks.

The only thing that really worries me is that he’s going more to the cutter and he’s not getting the movement and velocity on it that he normally does. Halladay ran into similar issues right before getting shutdown with forearm strain a couple of years ago. My concern is that he’s trying to get out of his slide doing it all himself, and that’s when things go to heck.

I still believe there are the bones of a very good ballclub here for next year. I’m just hoping this end of season collapse doesn’t follow them through the off season.

by dexfarkin on Aug 31, 2009 9:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Personally, I think there are some fear-of-success and self-sabotaging behaviour at work here. Roy has grown comfortable with the Jays. Early career struggles led Roy to become the pro he is today so he now “controls” his environment. Getting thrown in to a new situation will mean a loss of control to Roy and potentially re-visiting a period in his life where he struggled. This is not appealing to Roy. Meanwhile, Brandy too has voiced considerable stress over the possibility of change. This is not appealing to Brandy.

My cocktail party psychology says that Roy may subconsciously fear change (for him and his spouse), and thus is unconsciously performing below par to avoid the stress. IMHO, it is a mental issue and not a physical one.

by aagoodfella on Aug 31, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m less inclined to see it as a psychological issue, simply because the only metric I’ve seen that could potentially support it is the increased use of the cutter. If he’s going to his cutter more, it could mean he’s trying to go back to his comfort zone. Past that extremely tenuous extrapolation, we just don’t have enough info off the field to presume we know what’s up in Doc’ head.

Again, I don’t think Doc is particularly performing much below par. It’s just happening at the same time as some seriously bad luck, and it’s making it look a lot worse then it is. If he was being wild, or getting blown out, I’d be a lot more worried. I think it’s more he’s trying to make adjustments and has been inconsistent finding his groove. My concern is more to why he’s making adjustments, and is the forearm trouble coming back.

By the way, not directed at you or your comments, but in general, I have a long standing distaste and lack of patience for people who make authoritative comments about the psychology of a player based on their performance in the field. Too many years in the game myself, listening to fans tell me what was going on in the heads of my teammates, and being wrong pretty much all the time…

by dexfarkin on Aug 31, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

your point concerning psychology is well taken … it is difficult to know for sure, especially as far removed from the situation as we are being fans and not being qualified psychiatrists for that matter

i only offer it as one of many possible explanations as a means to getting to the eventual true source of the problem — which it still may be

by aagoodfella on Aug 31, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yup, and I’m totally with people offering ideas about the mental side of the game. It’s just when people make statements as if they were fact about what players are or aren’t thinking that I get annoyed.

I’d say it’s likely fair to say that the grinds of the season, the losses, and the trade have had some effect on Halladay, but I think by fair the largest negative working against him in his last three games has been bad luck. Unfortunately, that can snowball quickly if not dealt with and reversed.

by dexfarkin on Aug 31, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cito's not the issue

The season ended when JP announced that Halladay was tradeable. I’m sure that messed up any team chemistry and certainly messed with Halladay’s focus. Then we started to dismantle the defense, which kept us in some games.I think a few guys are batting for their own numbers and the rest are trying to enjoy the last month.

by Sam S on Aug 31, 2009 10:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ok I've clearly stated the question wrong.

The question was ‘make the case for Cito as manager?’ If the team quit because a player was tradable then someone is doing something very very wrong in the clubhouse.

I don’t see why people think Doc is made of glass. Saying he can’t pitch well because of the trade rumors makes me think everyone has been watching a different pitcher than I have over the years.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 31, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

we cannot really make the case for Cito (specifically) as manager

however, you specifically wrote make the case for “keeping Cito” at the end of your writing and make the case for “not firing Cito” in your write up

the issue of reactionary firing of an incumbent manager and Cito’s merits as a manager are two different discussions

Manager change for the Jays is inevitable. Done properly, namely as part of a strategic plan and in a thoughtful, well-researched manner could be instrumental in making the Jays competitive for a long while. Done in a reactionary is likely to yield little productive value.

So we are not making the case for Cito, what we are making the case against is a reactionary response leading to Cito’s termination.

by aagoodfella on Aug 31, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK, Cito is said to be good with a veteran team and a big budget team. That’s what he had in the 90s. Cito assumes veterans can work through their problems that they all face from time to time. He gives players a lot of rope; generally I think that’s a good thing. This year it didn’t work.

Everyone said Roy was distracted at the the all-star game. I think psychologically he’s a pretty rigid guy that works best with routine and fantastic focus. That was taken away by JP, with or without Roy’s consent. I’ve also wondered if his forearm strain issue has returned.

by Sam S on Aug 31, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also, in the 90s Cito had a GM who could and would get him veteran players who could actually still play. Even though the pitching has fallen off recently, it’s the problems with hitting that has really sunk this team. Unfortunately for Cito, he keeps on hoping that players such as Millar will come out of their funk and start hitting again. The problem is that Millar is not in a funk. This is his new level of ability.

The only sin for a veteran in Cito’s eyes is a lack of effort, which is why Rios was shipped out.

I’ve always liked Cito as a manager but these last few months have been pitiful. It’s quite clear to me that Cito is the wrong manager for this team. Cito is very good at managing the veterans in a strong contending team. I think that’s why he had success. But this loyalty means that he is very reluctant to move on. And that is what I think this team lacks.

by siggian on Aug 31, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

“Is there a statistic to measure how many shallow outfield bloopers have been hit against him? it seems he has been blooped a lot lately?”

His BABIP as risen 20 points above his career average. So yes, he’s gotten very unlucky this season (and in August in particular).

by Brad Fullmer Fan on Aug 31, 2009 3:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

“If youre suggesting that we dumped Rolen for nothing then you obviously arent paying much attention.”

I didn’t say it was a bad trade, did I? I’m just pointing out that they got rid of one of their best players and didn’t get any major league talent back.

It’s not really a huge mystery why this team is struggling worse than they were even in June. They have worse players.

by Brad Fullmer Fan on Aug 31, 2009 3:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hey Brad, You should use the reply button on the bottom of each post. That way it keeps the replies in a single thread. The conversations can get confusing if they are all jumbled up here at the bottom.

Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...

by JohnnyG on Aug 31, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

“I’m still looking for a reason why he should be manager. if the best we can do is ‘managers don’t make a difference’ we aren’t winning.”

I’m no Cito fan. I just think it’s an irrelevant discussion. If you are given bad players, you can’t win.

by Brad Fullmer Fan on Aug 31, 2009 3:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

A Case for Cito to Go...

Cito was great, when he has a vetran line up, that plays everyday and produces.. He`s not a good manager for young players, espically when trying to develop…. He`s horrible with the bullpen (which we all complained about early this season, even when they were winning)

What about… Ernie Whitt??? He would have respect as being a former player, he`s been through alot, so the young players could relate. And I think teamed with Arnsberg, who could handle the pitching decisions, they would make a great team… If Cito truly wants to help transition, keep him around to help the hitters…

As stated before Barajas, Bautista, Millar ànd Macdonàld are all Free Agents.. so that`s part of the problem…

Bring in Figgins, ReSign Scutaro, and Find one bargin player like Abreu this year…

by Lanky07 on Aug 31, 2009 4:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

instead of keeping cito as manager..........

IF the consensus is that cito is a great hitting coach ,MAKE HIM THAT !……..Gene Tenance,has been with the team since jesus was a child and its time for a change.,except for 2 or 3 players no one else is hitting on a regular basis. Do you really think cito would decline the motion,and this way he only impacts a new manager if he fails in his capabilities……..and then he can be dealt with based on performance. Everyone should be dealt with on performance including WELLS. this guy is getting a free ride. BENCH him he needs to start thinking about his career after the blue jays,where is he going to go making the money he makes at a 235 average.

by Lptem@yahoo.com on Aug 31, 2009 4:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Gene came back with Cito.....

he’s not been here since Cito left the first time.

by Tom Dakers on Aug 31, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you make it sound like hes new...............BRAND NEW

tenance has been with the blue jays from 1990-1997,and now from 2008 to present LONG enough to supposedly know how to do his job.
I would think 9 years in his capacity is LONG ENOUGH !
He should be judged on performance and if this column has any truth to it Hitting is not something the blue jays have alot of depth in.
Just my opinion………………and if hes citos best friend ..maybe thats good cause for him not to be there.

by Lptem@yahoo.com on Aug 31, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tenace's resume looks a lot better than Cito's

Cito was Hank Aaron’s roommate for a while. Tenace won 4 world series rings as a player and had a career OPS+ of 136, primarily as a catcher.

They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.

by Torgen on Aug 31, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you said Tenace was here forever, I said he came back last year with Cito....

by Tom Dakers on Aug 31, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

except that there is absolutely no chance whatsoever

that Cito would accept a demotion to hitting coach, especially to replace his friend.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Aug 31, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

baha, why would Vernon even have to play baseball after he finishes his 126M contract?

by Brad Fullmer Fan on Aug 31, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

IMO, hitting coaches are meaningless. It’s all about the talent that is on the field. People always end up blaming the coaches for things that are entirely out of their control.

by Brad Fullmer Fan on Aug 31, 2009 6:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs