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Cito

Ok, I was really frustrated after yesterday's loss and let that frustration show (you think) in the recap. It was a terrible game at the end of a poor series. The question 'make the case for Cito' came out of conversation in each of the last couple of game threads. I hit that wall of wondering what Cito does well, because after those losses you don't see it. But really, the answer to the question is a simple one. The reason why Cito is manager is because of his record. He won 2 World Series. Now it may seem like some sort of insult but it isn't. People say 'yeah but he had a great team'. Guess what, lots of guys have had great teams, not many have won two World Series in a row. I mean, it's trump. 

Winning is the most important stat for a manager. We can say a manager doesn't do several things right but if he wins, who cares. There are a lot of things that a manager does that we don't see. And a lot of the time the things we do see matter far less than we think they do. So if a guy wins and yet does everything wrong, who cares. 

But at what point do we say that was then this is now?

Well, let's look at Cito. If you listen to Rance, you hear the term 'player's manager' time and time again. It really is a term I've come to hate. Earl Weaver used to say that on every team there were 5 guys that loved you, 5 guys that hated you and the secret to managing was keeping the 5 guys that hate you away from the 15 that are on the fence. Yeah guys that you play will like you. Guys you don't play won't like you.

They call Cito a player's manager because once he decides he likes you, you will play every day no matter what. Up to a point it is a good thing. A manager shouldn't over react to a slump. All players slump, but if a guy is looking over his shoulder every time he goes 0 for 4 that's a bad thing. But at some point it become self parody. There has to be accountability.

Look at Joe Maddon. B.J. Upton looks terrible at the start of the year. Joe gives him some time to play out of it then sits him, then he moves him to 9th in the order. The message is clear. Dioner Navarro plays terrible he gives the catcher job to Greg Zaun. The players get the message, but I'd still call Maddon a players manager. 

Cito? Millar shows he really has no value anymore as a player, and he bats cleanup. Rod Barajas hits under .200 for most of the season, does he sit and watch Chavez play for a couple of weeks? No. Vernon hits nothing all year and plays poor defense. Now I'm totally all for giving him a chance to turn it around because he was great just last year but some signal has to be sent. b

The flip side? Randy Ruiz is called up and gives the team a shot in the arm. Do I think he's a great player? No. But man he is hustling, hitting the ball hard and clearly trying to show well. Where has he been the last 3 or 4 games? The bench. I mean he sat yesterday so we could have both Bautista and McDonald in the game. On bluejays.com there is a story 'scuffing offense needs a spark'. What has Ruiz been but a spark?

Cito is supposed to be a great hitting coach and talks about players having a plan when they come up to the plate. Anyone see any signs of that? We got beat by Paul frigging Byrd yesterday. If that doesn't show we don't have a plan at the plate, nothing does. 

Anyway, I know JP's not going to fire him in a hurry, I'd just like to know what he is doing well enough to keep his job. He is very likable but then likable isn't exactly the first thing I look for in a manager.

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I think

this team just gave up for the season. They just don’t look like they want to play out there.

by Frag on Aug 31, 2009 2:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I have not been this disinterested in this team in a very long time. I have always been one for watching right until the season ends, but have lost interest this year. Ownership needs to state exactly what they are planning to do going forward, so the hardcore fans have something to take to the bank.

by Jevant on Aug 31, 2009 5:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Also curious...

…do you have an alternative in mind? Just wondering.

by Jevant on Aug 31, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like Jevant, I’ve stopped watching. My holiday started July 23rd and I got out of the habit of watching every game. After I got back, I realized that watching this year’s team was too painful and fraught with frustration and haven’t turned on my TV for more than a few innings.

It’s also about hope. I’m less and less hopeful about this team going into next year. JP is not giving me the warm fuzzies about his ability to fill the obvious gaps in this team.

by siggian on Aug 31, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Going forward

Jevant I think you make an excellent point. The only retoric we seem to get from Ricciardi and Beeston is about Salary management and `space to manouver`. If we`re going to downsize our structure and aspirations then the fans should be let into the loop

by voidhelix on Aug 31, 2009 5:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think there is a chance in hell that JP fires Cito. That would be a PR nightmare for him. The average fan still adores Cito for 92-93, and has no clue about what he actually does wrong. Can we finally understand why he didn’t have a job for 15 years?. The only way he is gone is if there is a new president, meaning there would be a new GM, and then a new manager.

by harrison1 on Aug 31, 2009 6:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

For the record...

…I will cheer for the team through a rebuilding effort, assuming ownership mans up and admits to rebuilding. It is hard to cheer for the team when they say they are competing, but make no efforts to actually do so.

by Jevant on Sep 1, 2009 11:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

well said

fully in agreement.

I think the problem is JP (and, by extension, the whole organization) knows that no-one will buy another “5-year plan” story from him. If he says anything that even hints at rebuilding he might as well come out and resign right there. Thus he trots out the same BS about liking the team and competing in 2010. Not trading Halladay was great for him as it bolstered this illusion. Then having to dump Rios obviously really shook him.

The only way the organization can get out of this and save any face whatsoever is to keep to that line, then at season’s end clean house and bring in a new President, GM, and (hopefully) manager. I think when this happens there will be many many leaks about a long series of closed-door meetings, whispering, etc. and then they will finally tell us what everyone knows anyway:

JP vastly overestimated the talent level of this team and killed us with bad contracts trying to compete;
Things generally haven’t broken our way with the few good players we’ve had;
The AL East is tough, mid-market, blah blah;
Therefore they are blowing the team up (as if it isn’t 90% blown up already) to rebuild around Lind, Hill, Snider and the young pitching;
We will dump as much salary as we can and run the leanest ship possible until the bad contracts have run their course, all the young talent is in place and we’re ready to make a run;
Get ready for some really really bad baseball for a few more years;
BUT we have a 5-year plan!

I would be ok with this if I believed it, but I’m not sure I do. Guess it will depend on the quality of the new personnel in place and how well they go about spinning/selling it.

by voodoomusic on Sep 1, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think moving the Rios contract was a good move.

by aagoodfella on Sep 1, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Get rid of ricardi

Get rid of that idiot ricardi the man’s record in T.O. is dismall, the team has talent but they clearly do not want to play for a clown like ricardi, his handling of the Roy Halliday attempted trade was absolutely brutal, get rid of this fool called ricardi

by TriD on Sep 2, 2009 2:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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