2010 A.D. or 1 A.H. (After Halladay) as We'll Know it in Toronto
Hi everone. This is a guest post by Mylegacy, one of the many fantastic members of the Bluebird Banter community. I asked him if he'd like to do a guest post, and he responded with this great bit about possible rotation candidates. Have at it in the comments, and take it away Mylegacy!
- Hugo
Mylegacy:
Whether they end up in first or fifth in 2010 - the Jays will need 162 games to be "started." Started they will be - but by whom? That is the question.
In 2009 the Jays used twelve starters:
Leading the way was a Mr. R. Halladay who had 32 starts. Followed by Ricky Romero with 29, Brian Tallet with 25, Scott Richmond with 24, Brett Cecil with 17, Marc Rzepczynski with 11, Dave Purcey with 9, Casey Janssen with 5, Robert Ray with 4 and three with 2 starts each: Jessie Litsch, Brad Mills and Brian Burres.
Apparently, in 2010 Roy Halladay will not be available for his usual 32 starts - a serious pity. However, there are thirteen starting pitchers who will be available at some point over the year and they will decide how the team fares, where it finishes and how ravished the bullpen will be by the time the cold winds of October blow over Rogers Dome by the Lake.
In the order in which I expect the following 13 to make the MOST starts in 2010, I see:
1) Romero. A healthy horse, set up for a full season of play, I see 32 starts.
2) Marcum. Hopefully, a now healthy horse. Could have pitched late last year but was rested. I see 28 starts.
3) Cecil. While I slightly prefer R-alphebetsoup-ski Brett would appear to be the better long-term prospect. I expect 25 starts.
4) Rzepczynski. Marc is the guy I'd most like to see surprise - he just might - in any case I see 25 starts.
5) Morrow. While Brandon will start 2010 in the rotation I don't see him lasting. I just don't think his control and command are nearly ready. However, I do have very high hopes for him in 2011 and going forward. In 2010 I see 20 starts.
6) Richmond. Every ready, fairly steady I see 10 starts for Scott mostly just after Morrow goes down.
7) Drabek. I see 10 starts for Kyle when they deem him ready to take over from Richmond. I don't see him called up too early - I expect August sometime. From 2011 on this guy will be a top two starter for us with 32+ starts per year.
8) Stewart. I see 10 starts for Zach as well. IF there is a REAL sleeper on the list so far it is Zach - he has quite exceptional stuff and could be an Ace in the making. In any case I see Zach as a horse in the starting rotation in 2011 and going forward.
9) Mills. Brad is the BEST YOUNG guy on this list that just won't make it with the Jays long term - unless he's in the pen. However, he'll get 5 starts in 2010 and probably be trade bait thereafter. IF - he had to be in the starting rotation - he'd be good. Just not good enough in the AL East.
10) McGowan. Dustin could well end up in the pen. However, he'll get 2 fill in starts this year. When (IF) he returns to full health in 2011 he'll be a very serious candidate for a 25 game spot in that rotation. This year I think he'll be working the starting kinks out in AAA with a possible move to the pen there IF he just doesn't look physically up to starting. Either starting OR in the pen - Dustin is not done yet!
11) Purcey. Dave is the worse case scenario for Morrow. Purcey has had to take so much off his faastball to be able to throw it near the plate that he's not really a top starting prospect. However, in the pen in shorter uses - who knows? In 2010 I see him making 2 make up starts in TO.
12) Litsch. Jessie will get two starts in the bigs - mostly in a fill in role. He'll be back in a AAA or AA rotation by mid to late August. Another wild card in 2011.
13) Ray. Robert will get 1 fill in start in 2010. Rob is not a bad prospect - however on this team - he either makes a career in the pen or on some other team.
In addition to the Bakers Dozen above, mid-2011 Chad Jenkins should be ready to make his big noisy entrance pitching in the Bigs. AND - Chad looks to be a very solid number 2 or 3 MLB starter. He'll rip a place for himself in the top 5 - no question by opening day 2012. A bit later - possibly by mid-2012 or early 2013 Henderson Alvarez will also be FORCING his way into the rotation. On starting day 2014 - in some order or another, we'll have the FOUR HORSEMEN: Jenkins, Stewart, Drabek and Henderson with ONE of: Morrow, Romero, Cecil or Rzepczynski. However it goes - the Bullpen will not want for great arms just from the starters that fall through the cracks.
Now if only AA can grow us a few more position studs - this is going to be a very interesting team to watch as we "Grow Them in 2010" and "Launch Them in 2011."
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Looks good to me....
Dustin McGowan apparently feels he’ll be ready at the start of the season which, if true, would buy him a few more starts. You don’t feel Litsch might make it back for a handful of starts near the end of the year?
I have to say, I like Litsch
I don’t think he’s anywhere close to an ace but he showed a lot of progress in his second year and I could see him putting up better numbers than more touted guys. He did some pretty impressive things for an AL East pitcher at a young age. I don’t think the Jays will rush him, though, so I could see him working his way back up through the minors and not getting more than a handful of starts this season.
With McGowan, that’s great news that he thinks he’ll be ready, but to me it seems like anyone’s guess until he actually starts throwing competitively and sees how he feels. Last season Janssen seemed poised to take on a full season of starts too and people were saying similar things but spring training made clear he wasn’t ready yet (and he never really looked comfortable in 2009)
I’m not sure about Stewart – seems like he might need a little more time. He’s 23, but only has 14 starts in the minors (7 at A, 7 at AA), and not many in college either (just 3 starts in his last season at Texas Tech). I could see him needing to spend 2010 in the minors.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
skeptical about his healthy return from surgery?
skeptical that he was ever good enough in the first place, or some combination of the two?
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
skeptical that he was ever good enough,on a sustainable basis, in the first place, and thus a situation that will be further complicated by his injury. So, essentially a combination of the two.
Hard to dislike someone that
in his first two seasons in the AL East had ERAs of 3.81 and 3.58. Be hard to see where that was some sort of fluke.
the first season I thought was
but then in his second season, Litsch upped his K rate by a whole K/9 and dropped his walk rate by the same, while keeping his groundball stuff, all while only 23. His second season made a fan out of me.
Still, I think he’s likely the kind of pitcher who has to prove himself again and again, and you never know with arm surgery, so I’m hoping he takes his time and comes back strong.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Litsch
I think the key to Jesse Litsch was that he just never got rattled, even when he got lit up. He had a gameplan, usually ‘keep the ball down, work the corners, change speeds with the breaking ball’ and followed it. If he walked a guy on a close call, he’d still throw the pitch on the next batter and work for the strike.
I think that was really where his success comes from. Look at Burnett. He’d walk a guy in the first inning, and then abandon that zone with that pitch for the rest of the game at times. Or Chamberlin would give up a homer on a good breaking pitch low and then try blowing high heat past people because he starts to panic a little. Litsch stayed down, had confidence in his stuff, and worked methodically.
I think people get a little too wound up with ‘stuff’, and forget that pitching is as much about skill and patience as it is ability. Litsch’s mental approach to the game is hugely advanced for his age, and a guy that can hit his spots and doesn’t cede control over the pace of the game to the hitter is a guy that can do very well on small ability.
hey wait a sec, I thought we said ERA does not count., LOL.
2007 IP was a bit light, but agree his stats look good. Just that he never looked good in 2009 even pre-injury, so I have to think that the jury is out somewhat.
the guy had 2 starts and 9 innings last year....
he didn’t look good on one start and then the start he left with the injury. If you call tell more from 9 innings than the 2 seasons before that, you are a hell of a scout.
source?
The latest I had seen on McGowan was AA’s comment ca. Dec. 23rd to the tune of “we don’t really know what his health is or what his role is going to be.” It seems kind of preposterous, not to know, which to me kind of says, “it’s pretty bad, so we’re not going to say anything.”
I have always thought he was most likely done; it’s hard to come back from these kinds of injuries, plus the diabetes etc. Still, I have no doubt that even if his arm is hanging by a thread, the Blue Jays will probably trot him out to get shelled once or twice (see: Ryan, B.J.; Ward, Duane) just to prove to the fans “see, he really can’t pitch anymore!” It’s just a question of when that happens.
Would love to be wrong on this, though; even if he could come back to be a sort-of-ok pitcher (not even what he was), he could maybe be a piece in a trade, since he’s cheap and has a few controllable years left.
This post makes me ask the question
When the hell do I get a guest post?
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Jan 4, 2010 6:10 PM EST reply actions
haha, anytime you want
e-mail me, using the link at the bottom of the page. I should have mentioned that, actually, for anyone who might be interested. Or, to short-circuit the process, you can just do a fanpost and I will promote it to the front page.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
lots of options
there certainly do seem like lots of options and if all the stars alligned the Jays could have quite a surplus
in that group, IMHO, only Romero, Marcum and McGowan have shown themselves to be reliable starters, but the nature of McGowan’s injuries raises questions. Still I have high hopes for Cecil, Rzep, Stewart and Drabek and medium hopes for Richmond, Litsch, Morrow and Ray.
Pitching is a tough way to make a living.
Young Pitching
I dont think the Jays organization gets enough credit for the young pitchers it has in its system. The names arent as “sexy” as Matusz, Feliz, or Bumgarner but we still have some solid prospects that will force there way into the rotation.
I think this team needs more positional studs as Mylegacy said and i hope to see that start with this upcoming draft. We have a pretty high pick (11) and we got 3 1st rounders.
If youngsters like Sierra, Marisnick pan out we look to have a solid outfield. The only area i have a problem with in the left side of the infield. We have NO ONE. Jackson and Athrens arent doing much and Pastornicky doesnt have much power. I hope we clear that up soon, but otherwise we have a lot of promise in Jays country.
Now...
Wouldn’t Aroldis Chapman look good on that list as well!
As the draft stands right now (assuming someone signs Barajas): we pick 11th overall then, 33rd, 38th, 42nd, 53rd, 70th, 71st, 82nd and 105. Gotta be at least one guy that hit and field the ball in there somewhere!
Law is not as enthusiastic as some here
Keith Law of ESPN comments on an article by Jordan Bastien about the young Jay staff and says -
Let’s not overstate this rotation, they are young ready and cheap,dont confuse that with Tremendous Upside Potential.
He feels Morrow is the only one with #1 starter potential and Marcum if healthy a #2, the rest are mid of rotation guys.
having mid-rotation guys
as your 4th and 5th and 6th starters is very valuable
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
If...
If Morrow is the #1….and Marcum is a capable #2….then isn’t it kind of ok that the others are mid-rotation guys?
Isn’t “#3” the middle of the rotation?
In fact, if I have a mid-rotation guy at #3, #4, and #5….I figure I’m in pretty good shape.
not a fan of Law...
and what’s wrong with having a strong #1 (Morrow), a strong #2 (Marcum) and 10 mid-rotation starters???? seems pretty decent to me :)
i think his point is
that there are big questions marks on the only #1 and #2 guys – Morrow and Marcum. He’s saying that you can rely on finding some mid-rotation guys out of the rest, but we’re thin at guys projected at the top.
Personally I think he’s being a little bit cheap on the upside of Romero, Cecil, Rzep, Drabek, Stewart, Jenkins and Alvarez. I think any of these guys could be a number 2, though they may be a safer bet as #3s or #4s, the fact that theres seven of them indicates to me that theres a reasonable chance that one or two will be #2 level starters.
As for Marcum, he was on his way to ace status prior to his injury. Scouts around the league were buzzing about his control and his changeup and were making the comparison to Maddux.
All the first and second starter stuff is silly anyway....
Anyone that watched Roy Halladay in 2000, when he had a 10 ERA would have never guessed he would have been a number one starter. Several of the young Jay pictures could become a number 1 or 2 guy if things went really well.
Impossible to predict how many starts.
However, what I will say is that with so many pitching options, and with what I’m guessing will be short leashes for most, don’t be surprised if the Jays end up having a solid season, pitching-wise. Even more so if the bullpen rebounds (and is used properly). I think it was 2007 when they had Ohka and Zambrano start quite a few games, yet emerge with a great rotation?
Of course, I’m hopelessly optimistic about this team every offseason.
Drabek is major-league ready
Just have to see how Spring Training goes because it obviously isn’t his decision. He has to win the job.
Romero – hope he stays healthy, because he will probably get the call on Opening Day
Marcum – hope he comes back strong
Chefcynski – want to see his BBs go down
Cecil – needs to continue to develop but not really concerned about him
McGowan – i’m going to pray that he is healthy by Spring Training and throughout the rest of the year, because the man.is.a.beast. Has the best stuff of any starter we have.
HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!
I'm not sure why you think Drabek is major-league ready
but it’s unlikely. He just turned 22 a few weeks ago, has just 14 starts in AA, and reportedly needs a little work on his secondary pitches. I think he’s arguably almost major-league ready, and I hope he’ll be major-league ready by the end of 2010, but it’s pretty doubtful that he is now and treating him like he is probably isn’t a great idea. He was healthy last season (158 innings) but made only 8 starts in 2008.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
He said it himself
“Most of my stuff is where I want it to be right now,‘’ Drabek said. "If they wanted me, I’d be ready.’’
He has 4 pitches (mid 90s FB with movement, very good curve, and an average & developing slider/change-up. He’ll still probably be in AA ball to begin the year as stated by AA.
HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!
seriously?
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Currently, we have too many starters
We need to pick the best 7 or 8 best we have and trade the rest for missing pieces a la RF, 3rd base, SS.
HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!
Disagree
We have a lot of very young or inexperienced starters. It’s guaranteed that some of them are going to flame out or break down this year. The trick will be to figure out which ones are going to produce and which ones won’t.
The ones that won’t this year will hopefully be ready the following year, when we will still have a lot of young, slightly more experienced starters.
We dont or wont have spots for all these pitchers. Only 5 rotation spots...so what would you do with guys like scrabble and Purcy who might not ever pitch for us after this year. Specially when Drabek and Stewart will be ready soon.
Its nice we have some good depth but if we have them just sitting around in the minors because we have too much depth then it’s counter productive. Why not trade some Pitching and fill up spots we need. I for one could go for a lead off hitter.
the pitchers who would have enough value
to get an everyday position player at this point are the ones you are not willing to trade.
But after this season, with some good performances, that could easily change.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Yes
2010 is about winnowing the wheat from the chaff as far as all of the potential starters go. Some will make it and some won’t. If the Jays end up with 6 or 7 guys who are legit starters, then you can start to talk trade with some of them. Right now though, there’s not a single Jays starter that doesn’t have a question mark so having plenty of Plan Bs and Cs around is a good thing.
well.....
Lets say in the next couple of years Drabek, Morrow, and Stewart project to be what they are being projected to do.
So we would have
Drabek
Morrow
Stewart
Romero
Marcum/Cecil
Leaving……
Scrabble, Purcy, Litch, McGowen, Richmond, Mills, and Ray to sit around and look good in the minors.
Even if they project Morrow to be a number two guy…that slides either cecil or marcum off that list. Plus maybe (big maybe) add in Chapman and now both cecil and Marcum are out of the rotation.
Again you never know what gonna happen with pitching but it does seem we have an abundance of pitching sitting around waiting a turn. I think we have enough to get a package together without hurting us in the long run. Plus with all our picks this year it would be eazy to replace what we just traded away.
by syc on Jan 5, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not inconcievable Zep could have the best results of all of them this year. He’s been under-rated so far in his career and i think that his potential is still being understated.
I think the Jays rotation this year will look a lot like the Twins and Rays in 2008 – a collection of mostly unheralded guys who simply go out and put up good numbers anyway.
I agree with your point on Chef
He is like a lefty Brandon Webb; great life/movement on his 2 seamer, and is developing his secondary stuff. He only gave up like 5 HRs in his entire minor league career, where he pitched around 150-200 IP(not sure on the total).
HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!
by the way, out of curiousity, why do you call him Chef?
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I think one of the Jays broadcasters made a joke about his name and then it kinda stuff with me. I also really like “the Chef is cooking”, sorta like The Rock’s catchphrase.
HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!
picking at nits...
but you’ve got 13 different starters making 172 starts for the Jays in 2010…hopefully we win all of those 10 extra games, might be just what we need to challenge for 3rd place.

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