I Keep Making These To-Do Lists But Nothing Gets Crossed Out: Should the Blue Jays Keep John Buck?
Decisions, decisions. Now that the Jays have announced their manager and the return of some important coaches, the next item on the agenda is player personnel decisions. Free agents can file five days after the conclusion of the World Series. In order to get draft pick compensation for departing free agents, teams must offer arbitration by November 23, 2010 and those would-be free agents get a week to decide. Teams must offer arbitration to reserved players (those not eligible for free agency) by December 2 and the winter meetings commence a few days later. The Jays will have plenty of core players returning, but they also have some tough decisions between now and the end of 2010. This series will look at those issues, one by one.
First up, John Buck. The Jays brought John Buck in prior to the 2010 season in what turned out to be a very savvy deal. Mediocre veteran catchers were getting 2-year deals for upwards of $2 million per season, and the Jays brought Buck in on a 1-year, $2 million deal. Buck responded by having the best season of his career, hitting .281/.314/.489, with 20 home runs and catching one of the better, and most surprising, pitching staffs in baseball. Buck was a 3-win player, suggesting the Jays got almost $11.5 million in value on a $2 million layout, good business to go along with good baseball.
Buck enjoyed Toronto and has said that he would be happy to return, but he has made clear that it must be on his terms, meaning he'd have to be assured a starting role. With the season he's had, he's clearly in the driver's seat in that regard and there's no doubt he could command a starting job, and likely a multi-year deal. While Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopolous has indicated that the Jays very much like Buck and would be happy to have him return, the picture is complicated and the Jays have not yet made a decision on what to do.
First, the easy decision - whether to offer Buck arbitration by November 23rd. Yes, the Jays should, and will, do so. Buck is a type B free agent and therefore will bring the Jays a sandwich round pick (between the first and second rounds) if he is offered arbitration and signs a major league deal with another team, which he will. The team signing him doesn't have to give up anything (other than cash), so there's no impediment to his signing, and there are plenty of teams around the league that he could help so his signing a major league deal is a near certainty.
Now, the tough choice. Assuming Buck rejects the deal, which he likely would, the Jays have to decide whether or not to try to bring him back. What complicates this is the season that first-round pick and backstop prospect J.P. Arencibia enjoyed last season. Arencibia hit .301/.359/.626 for Las Vegas. Those numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt because Arencibia was repeating the level and because the PCL is an extreme hitters' environment, but it's not as if the season came out of nowhere. Arencibia was a very highly-touted catching prospect out of college (University of Tennessee) and only slipped to the back end of the 1st round because of a back injury and potential concerns as to whether he could stick behind the plate. Arencibia has quieted both of those concerns by enjoying good back health and progressing very nicely on defense, despite some hand-wringing in the press based on a few poor pitching performances he happened to catch at the major-league level. He has caught between 1/4 and 1/3 of runners attempting to steal and is said to have solid footwork and good hands behind the plate. While he definitely had a poor 2009, we learned after the season that Arencibia was plagued by several nagging injuries and poor vision throughout the 2009 season. 2008 was Arencibia's first full season in professional ball and he showed solid contact skills and power, hitting .298/.322/.527 across high A and double A.
The question remains, of course, what is Arencibia capable of producing at the major league level, and when will he be ready to do so. Arencibia's main offensive limitation is his relatively poor plate discipline, but that's a skill on which he has improved in each season he's played professional ball. His first season J.P. was walking less than 3.5% of the time, but he bumped that up to 5.2% even in his disappointing 2009, and in 2010 he was walking 8.3% of the time, which isn't bad for a catcher who can hit home runs (for example, it's far better than John Buck's 3.7% last season as well as his 6.5% career rate). The question is whether Arencibia can walk that often at the major league level - he will need to in order to get the most out of his other offensive skills.
Arencibia, like Buck, is basically a hard-swinging fastball hitter who struggles with offspeed and breaking pitches, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. What he'll need to do to succeed is to recognize the breaking stuff early so he can lay off it when possible.
Then, there's the question of his defense - Cito Gaston had Arencibia riding the bench at the major-league level, both when Buck was injured and again at the time of September roster expansion. Whether he wanted Buck to have the chance to improve his counting stats or whether he didn't trust Arencibia behind the plate is open to interpretation, but with a young pitching staff that was key to the team's 2010 success, the Jays are not going to take a chance by allowing a prospect to learn how to catch at the major-league level. Either he is ready for the responsibility, or he isn't.
Arencibia didn't get much of a chance to play at the major-league level so I don't think it's fair to read much into his major-league numbers, either the good (his incredible first mlb game) or the bad (there were some 0fers with multiple strikeouts sprinkled in there too). I think it's fair to say that it would be a stretch for Arencibia to replicate the numbers Buck put up in 2010, but I'm not sure Buck would be able to replicate those numbers either. Arencibia will likely take some time to redevelop his plate discipline and pitch recognition (generally skills that are relearned at each successive new level) and the pressure of catching in the majors everyday is likely to take some toll on his offensive skills.
Personally, I don't think Arencibia has much to learn from hitting or catching everyday at AAA, particularly in the PCL. If he has anything to learn on the offensive side, it's adjusting to big-league secondary pitches which are better than those in the minors (and particularly breaking stuff doesn't break as much in the PCL parks). If the Jays decide he's not ready to start at the major-league level, I'd rather see them bring John Buck back and make Arencibia his understudy, even though it will be frustrating to see him ride the pine. The problem with that is that Buck is likely looking for a multi-year deal and I'm not sure the Jays can make that commitment at this point. That said, if Arencibia blossomed the Jays could trade Buck.
For my money, Buck was great for the Jays, but it was also a career year for him and it's never best to overpay after a career season. Arencibia doesn't have much to prove to me in the minors and he'll be 25 in January with three full seasons of professional ball which is hardly callow by baseball standards. And the compensatory draft pick is a big incentive to part ways with Buck - past comp round picks have included Brett Cecil (for Justin Speier), Aaron Sanchez (for Marco Scutaro), Noah Snydergaard (for A.J. Burnett (albeit delayed a year)), and Asher Wojchiechowski (for Rod Barajas), significant pieces of the Jays' future picture.
I wouldn't hand Arencibia the starting job, but I think I'd let Buck go, bring in a couple of veteran Jose Molina-type catchers on 1-year deals, and give Arencibia a chance to win all or most of the starting job in the spring.
What would you do?
Title from the great Bright Eyes' song "Nothing Gets Crossed Out"
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What would I do?
Exactly what you said in the post. Well put.
I wouldn’t mind Jose Molina being one of those 2 catchers you’d be bringing in either. Of course, you better hope JPA is going to grab the starters job if he’s one of them.
Another option would be to try to find this year’s Buck – basically, someone in the same situation as Buck was in last year who can compete with JPA, and would have the possibility of providing some offence (which I am not convinced Molina can do).
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
I should clarify, however, that with the catching depth in our system, I do not think anything more than a 1 year deal for Buck makes sense, which is in large part why I think he is gone.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
I agree, that's a big part of the issue
Buck just turned 30 in July, so he has a fairly strong argument for a deal that would last more than a year or even two, and I just don’t see that making sense for the Jays. I like the idea of finding 2011’s Buck, but of course there’s going to be a fair amount of luck involved with that. And I’m very open to bringing back Molina but as you said, not with any eye on his being a starter except in a real pinch.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
There’s also Chavez who was a good defensive catcher and according to reports, is considered one of the better game callers behind the dish.
i wouldn't be averse to keeping Chavez around as injury coverage
but i’m not sure he’s really even good enough to be a major league backup unless one of your top two is injured
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I thought he did reasonably well in 2009. I mean, a line of 258/285/346 is brutal for an everyday guy, but for a defensive catcher that controls the running game well, I can live with it.
Sure, that would be acceptable
but that was probably his best offensive season and he’ll be two years older in 2011. I just don’t think it’s likely he can even repeat that
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Dont know about that in regards to catching depth
Our potential catchers of the future behind JPA are in A ball.
Onions Baby Onions
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They are?
The big names I guess, but we have Brian Jeroloman too, who finished the season in AAA. He’s not D’Anaurd or Perez, but I thought I remember that he had potential to be a relatively solid defence first type catcher.
He had a nice season too, hitting .265/.436/.439 for an OPS of .876 (mostly in NH) – nice 20+% walk rate too. No idea how that translates to the bigs but he should be on the list too I think. Although at 25, that time could be passing him by. It was also his third year at the AA level but I assume that’s because the Jays didn’t want him and JPA playing at the same level?
Maybe NHFishercats can comment on him, but he seems to be a middling prospect at worse.
by masterkembo on Oct 26, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Well the way I see it he's talking about a FA-Jose Molina-type (possibly Jose Molina) next year then someone else in 2012
So, here’s our Catching depth in the minors:
Brian Jeroloman AAA in 2011 – Obviously not an attractive option when referring to a “catcher of the future” but definitely would be a solid backstop especially with D and his ridiculous walk rate, could easily backup JPA in 2012.
Travis D’Arnaud AA in 2011 – Had a decent season in Hi A especially for his age, had some injury problems so they could possibly have him repeat, but with the log jam behind him he’s gotta move up. In 2012 he could be challenging for a September callup.
Carlos Perez Hi A in 2011 – Although technically not next in line as he would have to skip Lansing he’s been the best player in the Jays system at his level for three straight years, I’m thinking that he wants/needs to be moved faster. Probably won’t see the majors until 2013 at the earliest.
AJ Jimenez Hi A in 2011 – He had a great season and is the same age as Perez so this will be an interesting situation seeing how Dunedin handles playing both these guys as much as they need to be. Probably not going to be ready for the majors until 2014.
agreed
The option could be to sign Buck to a three year deal to get to D’Arnaud/Jiminez/Perez, while flipping JPA in another deal (with Zep or Stew for Rasmus, for example). Or you could keep both and rotate them through the DH position.
I’m generally against signing FA’s to multiyear deals after career years, so I’d let Buck walk.
I'm all for dealing for Rasmus, but Yadier would block JPA in St. Louis
But the logical decision is to let Buck go. He’s going to command some money and a multi year deal. The Jays aren’t quite in spending mode yet. J.P.A has to start catching at the Major League level. The organization needs to see if he can do it, or if he should move to a different position or even dealt. If Cito had played JPA for the majority of the time Buck was on the DL and some games after call-ups, they probably won’t need do this litmus test next year.
I also say we keep Molina because he’s such a great defensive catcher and can really help the pitching staff mature into fine players.
-Buck walks, we get the pick
-resign Molina as backup
-play JPA everyday or even deal him for Rasmus in the offseason
If all else fails, package 5 prospects for Wieters.
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retaining Buck and trading JPA is definitely a possibility
it would all depend on what value JPA would have on the market.
The formula would be weighing what JPA would bring back and the difference between having Buck and JPA behind the plate versus the cost savings to the Jays and the comp pick you’d get from letting Buck go. the big variable there is JPA’s trade value, and I’m not sure what you could get for him.
That said, my ultimate instinct is the same as yours. It’d be risky to hand Arencibia the starting job, but investing in Buck for three years after a career season when he’ll be in his 30s would also be risky.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Molina's back for next year
Just reported through the Fan590:
The Blue Jays have picked up the 2011 option on Jose Molina’s contract. The 35 year old catcher will earn $1.2 Million next season.
Festina Lente
Buck was a great deal for 2010… He will want 3 years I would imagine and obviously more then $2m/ year. I say we give JPA the starting job but also sign Molina again to be his mentor. I can see Molina accepting that role but Buck wants to be the #1 guy and he put up the numbers this year to get a nice deal from another team… Probably a team like the Tigers they always seem to jump on guys like him.
Give JPA the job, he has played his way to Majors now we have to give him a shot at proving himself in the big show…
by melochejonathan on Oct 26, 2010 12:27 PM EDT reply actions
I'll agree with Jevant - You can't beat hugo's common sense
I agree with all of it. Very well put.
I don’t see any problem with starting JPA.
Festina Lente
well said Hugo
JPA is going to have to learn these skills in the Majors at some point, so why not now, without making a significant financial commitment to anyone else?
JPAs MLE from last year gave him a .765 OPS (though only .291 OBA) which is better than all of Buck’s previous (non-contract) seasons, and not a whole lot worse than even his career year. if JPA improves slightly and maybe learns a few things in the spring, I don’t think it’s impossible for him to put up a .780 OPS, maybe higher if he surprises. from a solid defensive catcher, he’s gotta start
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great post
and i agree — the move to make here is to sign a solid starter-backup Miguel Olivo-type catcher and give Arencibia the opportunity to win the job from him.
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Give ayjackson a big cigar...
We should be listening to AA. He repeatedly has said , “(this off-season) will be very busy.” He has also said, “trades, (free agents later)”. “I’m not afraid to move prospects – they can’t all be on our team.” I believe him.
Buck was very good with the young pitchers. Why not get Rasmus or Big Daddies little (little?) boy, or whomever, for a package of kiddies – one of whom could be JPA.
And then if some ripe free agent fruit falls our way – like say Manny saying he’d like to play for the Jays and John – what the heck – game on, eh.
I'm all for big trades...
…but if you are going after Rasmus, you best be prepared to part with Drabek. Which I would do, immediately, but it would take more than JPA for sure.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
Noooooooo!!!
Pitching is what will decide if the Jays are competitive next year, they already generate plenty of offense – which could get even better if Hill and Lind rebound next year and Snider gains consistency. None of that is a stretch.
Drabek had players shaking their heads going back to the dugout in his starts, I remember that in particular when he pitched against the Yankees. WIth him and Brandon Morrow the Jays have guys with outstanding, unhittable stuff… and they will also be able to throw Romero, Cecil and Marcum at teams.
The biggest hole this team had was a solid, consistent #5 starter until Shawn Hill came up in September. With Drabek their greatest weakness becomes a strength next year.
by transmogrifier on Oct 26, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed, we can't overlook the rapport Buck has with the young starters
Not to say JPA can’t find that but are you willing to stake next season on that? The margin for error is very slim in the AL East, I don’t believe AA is willing to put all his chips on JPA at this point to carry the staff. And he shouldn’t until he knows for sure, unfortunately JPA hasn’t had enough experience to provide that level of comfort.
If Buck is willing to accept a bit of a discount to stick around for two or three years and be the starter that would not be a bad thing. JPA could still get a decent chunk of time behind the plate and DHing and would have time to learn at the major league level. The Jays would have time to evaluate him and could later trade Buck or JPA.
I don’t see a downside if they both turn out to be good for the team but at least the Jays are in good shape in JPA turns out not to be ready.
by transmogrifier on Oct 26, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t one of the problems with Buck catching and JPA DHing that if Buck has to come out of the game and JPA has to catch, you lose the DH and the pitchers need to bat. Yes, probably a very rare occurrence, but something you at least need to think about.
True
But if JPA has the bat many people think he does then we could conceivably carry another catcher and either he or Buck would be the right handed DH/PH. Not to mention he could continue to develop at another position like first base if catching doesn’t work out but he does hit well.
by transmogrifier on Oct 26, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It really depends
On whether you think 2010 was a career year for Buck or the new level of performance due to him shaking off some really crappy coaching by the Royals.
If you think the latter and he can be had for something like 3yr/12 million, then sign him to be the primary catcher with JPA as the #2. If JPA progresses so that he is matching Buck, you can then trade Buck, who will be very much in demand. If JPA struggles, then you have Buck for the full year as the primary catcher while JPA adjusts to MLB.
If you think the former, then just completely pass on Buck unless you can get him for 1yr/4million.
There is some reason to believe that it is crappy KC coaching. First off, there’s a change in batting approach that matches Buck’s strengths. Second, where Buck was below average in throwing out runners, with his new throw from the knees technique, he started to pick off runners frequently.
Career year, take the draft pick and run. Too many passed balls from Buck.
Besides if you keep trading all our rookies before you give them a decent chance to succeed, whats the point of having rookies (Unless you can get something for them).
Buster Posey would never had made it on the Jays because they wouldn’t have given the guy the chance to show what he could do.
Offer Buck arbitration
I doubt he will accept since he wants (and will get) a multiyear deal. However, paying a guy for a career year is generally a bad idea and especially if you have a younger, cheaper guy with more potential ready to start and whose numbers indicate that he’d be just as good as Buck if we assume some regression to his career averages (which I think is very reasonable).
Unless we think JP2 (this is my preferred nickname for him) can be significant trade bait, don’t resign Buck and take that delicious sandwich pick.
Plus, having JP2 over Buck saves $1.5M, which can be contributed to signing Manny Ramirez (or Carlos Pena)
and non-tendering E5
gets us to ~7M/year saved. seriously takes the sting off a FA signing.
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Don't forget
Halladay’s (7M I think?) and BJ Ryan’s (10M) contracts come off the books this year too. Lots of money to spend.
nope, sorry
Wells has a $10M raise in the books and Bautista will almost certainly get a 6M or more raise in arbitration. we do have other FAs who will probably leave/be non-tendered (Tallet, Frasor, Downs-hopefully not, Janssen maybe) so we will have some money, but the Doc and BJ money is probably not going to be part of that
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I'm not sure about that on Wells
according to Cot’s, Wells made $12.5 million “salary” this season but also received an $8.5 million signing bonus payment in March 2010. He is earning $23 mil in 2011 but his signing bonus is now all paid, so I don’t think it’s right to say he’s getting a $10 million raise.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I see where you're getting that
but their 2010-14 Player obligations spreadsheet lists two completely different values for him. strange.
in any case, it’s not 17M of free money, as Wells is getting some raise (of whatever amount) and raises to Bautista/Morrow/Marcum/Camp etc will be eating a good chunk of that money
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maybe they renegotiated?
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I really can't pretend to know
someone call Vernon and ask what’s up
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JohnnyG from Bluebirdbanter…..
Ya know I made that article about you playing Jeopardy over a year ago it was sorta funny click
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no
The Cot’s page spreads all bonuses evenly over the contract so they show Vernon going from about $17m to $27m in salary. This would be in agreement with the Jays’ accounting budget.
In actual cash terms, Vernon is going from $21m to $23m or a raise of $2m.
Godfrey said the Jays had two budgets – a cash budget and an accounting budget. I think the cash budget is more indicative of how much the team might have to spend from year to year. Accounting budgets guide how you should spend it (salary versus bonus).
hmm, interesting
thanks for clearing that up
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catchers seem to be available
A couple years ago when we needed a catcher, we picked up Rod Barajas and he did not cost much. After a fine year, many felt we should resign him. We didn’t because he was a type B free agent and we wanted a draft pick and thought we could pick someone up who would be adequate. We picked up Buck on the cheap and in addition got Wojchiechowski. There always seems to be an inexpensive catcher around if needed. It would seem to me, we let Buck walk, give JPA a chance, sign Molina as his back up and mentor and keep Chavez in AAA as back up there and emergency call-up and get a draft pick for Buck.
JPA is the type of player we want, young, controllable, good potential at a premium position. I say let him play and learn next year. Then in 2012, when we hopefully sign a couple free agents and are ready to compete, he will be ready.
I don't really think that's fair
it seems to me like we just got lucky (or the GMs have just done a great job picking up Cs for us). I imagine the reason we keep getting picks for our catchers is because the pool of decent catchers is so shallow, not because it’s deeper than other positions
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Who rocks? The Buckmeister or The Wise Guy?
Okay, so 24 of 25 roster spots are carved in stone for 2011, including Arencibia and Molina catching. You got one spot left. Your choice is: Buck at four for three, or Wise at one for one. So Buck would be guaranteed, say, $11 million more than Wise over the next three years. If payroll dollars were not a consideration, who’s going to win you more games this coming season, Buck or Wise?
In the company’s 2009 year end statement, Rogers Communications reported sales of over $11 billion on its cable TV, internet, telephone and wireless operation, which yielded a gross profit (before corporate taxes) of $4.09 billion. Hmm, let’s see now… That profit is 2,000% or 20 times the Yankees’ big $205 million payroll.
I was going to suggest we hold a tag day for the Jays before I read the Rogers statement. Silly of me. Damned silly.
i'm sorry, i don't even know where to start
if payroll dollars are not a consideration, you pay CC $30M a year.
and the Rogers numbers are completely and utterly irrelevant.
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