Jays Trade for Rajai Davis
by Tom Dakers on Nov 17, 2010 5:32 PM EST
in Toronto Blue Jays News
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PrintThe Jays have traded for Rajai Davis from the Oakland A's. Davis turned 30 last month and has played mostly CF in his career. Maybe Wells will move to RF? Fangraphs has him at a -14.7 UZR/150 last year but a 12.1 on the positive side in 2009.
Here is the press release:
BLUE JAYS ACQUIRE DAVIS
The TORONTO BLUE JAYS have acquired OF RAJAI DAVIS from the Oakland Athletics in exchange for RHP TRYSTAN MAGNUSON and RHP DANIEL FARQUHAR.
DAVIS, 30, has been a member of the Oakland Athletics since the 2008 season, posting a .284 average with five home runs, 52 RBI and 50 stolen bases in 2010. The Norwich, Connecticut native recorded a career high .305 average in 2009 and has registered 91 stolen bases over the past two seasons. In 476 career games, the right-handed hitter has batted .281 with 12 home runs and 143 stolen bases for Pittsburgh (2006-07), San Francisco (2007-08) & Oakland (2008-10).
MAGNUSON, 25, posted a 3-0 record with a 2.58 ERA in 46 relief appearances for the Blue Jays AA affiliate in New Hampshire last season. Selected 56th overall in the 2007 draft, the right-hander is 8-10 with a 3.53 ERA over three minor league seasons.
FARQUHAR, 23, recorded a 4-3 record with 17 saves and a 3.52 ERA in his second season in New Hampshire (AA). The Pembroke Pines, Florida native was originally chosen by the Blue Jays in the 10th round of the 2008 draft and has posted an 8-9 record with 39 saves and a 2.62 ERA in his three minor league seasons.
In addition, RHP SHAWN HILL has cleared Unconditional Release Waivers and has become a free agent. These moves currently give the Blue Jays 33 players on the 40-man roster.
Tom Back: Davis' career numbers are here. 50 steals last year. He had a really good 2009, with a .305/.360/.423 line. Maybe there was an injury of some sort last year. We gave up two pretty good relief prospects to get him but then I'd give up 2 minor league relievers for any decent player, though I think it messes with our prospect list a bit.
Interesting move.
Let's put up a poll.
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Unless the Jays have a way to bring out 2009 Rajai Davis more often, I think 12 years of cost controlled bullpen dork is too steep a price for 4 years of 4th outfielder.
That said, none of the pieces moving are likely strong enough to make this a significant move in either direction.
I don't think you would the pair of them will give 12 years of major league service...
I could be wrong but Maguson is 25 and just in Double A. Farquhar has more of a chance to have a career.
Worth noting.
Magnuson was drafted at an advanced age and as a result only has three years of pro ball currently under his belt. Supposedly profiles to have good enough stuff to be a mid reliever. Not a huge loss for sure, but it’s unfair to hold his age against him too much.
As far as I know, both still project to make the majors and stick. They’re not going to be anything special, but they should be something.
so we traded two guys who have a chance to be fair to good relievers
for a guy who is a fair to good CF. Sounds good to me.
Whoa
Did the Jays get another player in this deal? Who is this fair-to-good CF that you speak of?
Rajai Davis
has only one season with below average offense created, and he’s about 0 RAR in CF. fair-to-good.
he was worth 3.3 WAR in 2009
and 5.7WAR over a career spanning a little under 3 years worth of playing time. Sounds like he has a chance to be fair to good, as I said
So he’s had one good year powered by a BABIP well above his career line, and otherwise has topped out at being a win better than whatever chaff you would find in AAA.
I guess he is good compared to the however many thousands play baseball the world over but I really can’t see him being considered a “good” or even “fair” starter in the MLB.
um, no
he’s probably not reproducing 2009 (as you said, very high BABIP) but probably not reproducing 2008 either (very low BABIP). every other season he has been just above average in production of offense, which is fine from a CF. I also hope he’s not starting, but he would be a perfectly adequate starter if need be – especially since this past year he put up 2 oWAR despite a slightly lower OBA and SLG than his career numbers.
that said, we might need someone better if we want to contend.
I wasn’t even paying attention to his 2008 which I now see involves a rather splendid OPS+ of 66.
Even with his increasingly flattering look 2010, 2 oWAR with negligible to slightly bad defence is not a good player, and only “fair” if you squint and have standards somewhere between “mediocre” and “Sabean.”
Davis is a good enough basestealer
/runner that his wRC+ is higher than his OPS. and it’s completely unfair to say “there’s no way he’ll reproduce 2009” while also saying “he’s as bad as 2008.” 2 oWAR is not great, you’re obviously not paying attention to the fact that I’m trying to say he’s a very good 4th OF but not a good starter, despite the increase in defense we get from Davis and also from Wells in right.
If EE had a trade value he would have been traded, no?
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 17, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
Yes and no. Just because a team wasn’t able to pull off a deal doesn’t mean that a deal couldn’t have been done. That said, EE was basically foisted on us by the Reds who wanted to ditch him and it would seem that the Jays had probably been shopping him for awhile. Other teams know what’s going on, so a team like Oakland was probably willing to wait and see if the Jays put him on waivers so that they could try grab him cheap that way. Billy Beane is no stranger to scoring a good deal.
Oakland was a .500 team this year too. About half the mlb teams passed on taking him for nothing.
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 17, 2010 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
EE isn’t eligible for free agency yet. If he isn’t offered arbitration there is no draft pick either.
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 18, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
Davis to Centre, Wells to Right, Snider to Left
And Lewis still the 4th outfielder?
I do like this trade though
Is it really possible to have that big of a difference between one year to the next
according to Wells’ UZR. I know this has nothing to do with the trade but this baseball mathematical bleep is a joke IMO.
Guys sometimes have a good offensive year
say Lind in 2009 and then a bad offensive year, Lind in 2010….and no one says offensive numbers are a joke.
It is very possible their was a slight leg injury or something that cut back his range.
weird comment
Wells’ hitting performance fluctuated wildly between those two seasons, why not his fielding?
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Nov 17, 2010 6:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hmm this is a head scratcher to me
We don’t really have a spot to put Davis. He’s not really an “impact player” who should take playing time away from Snider/Wells/Bautista.
Now, some pondering. We now have 2 capable center fielders. One of whom is perhaps the most overpaid player in all of pro sports. If anybody can pull off unloading Vernon’s contract it’s Anthopoulos. Maybe he’s got something cooking. I’m probably living in my own magical fantasy land, but just throwing it out there.
perhaps the most overpaid player in all of pro sports.
Just a slight exaggeration…
Now, guys, let’s help shus here with a list of other overpaid pro athletes…
Festina Lente
I don't get how the NBA salary cap works.
How the hell are the heat under?
I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French Toast.
by craig in calgary on Nov 17, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
They have 3 players taking up the entire team’s cap. Plus the 3 players collectively took a little less than market value.
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 17, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Soon to be Jeter from the sounds of things
Exaggeration admitted, doesn’t change my point though
by shuswapslugger on Nov 17, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
Your point is well put.
It’s just that it’s important to remember that Vernon’s not to blame for that.
Festina Lente
Not really
That number he got is inflated. His buy out clause is fairly low.
Has to be David Beckham no?
I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French Toast.
by craig in calgary on Nov 17, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
Bonilla is still getting paid by the Mets.
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 17, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
Ding ding ding
We have a winner.
Wow. When is the last time he played? 1991?
I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French Toast.
by craig in calgary on Nov 17, 2010 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
1999 – instead of paying him about $6M in 2000, they agreed to pay him $30M from 2011 to 2030.
When asked about his contract, Bonilla, at the Mets-Marlins series in Puerto Rico, said, "That beautiful thing.’’
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 17, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What the fruit?!?
Couldn’t they have gotten a bank loan at a much lower interest? They could’ve used Mr. Met as collateral.
by Minor Leaguer on Nov 17, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
Someone actually worked it out.
Taking that 6mil and investing at a nominal interest rate compounding over the 11 years before it starts paying out actually saved them money.
It just looks really bad
Eternal Hope
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
but then we know where the Mets' owners invested
Bernie Madoff
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
The Mets GM wanted the money at the time. He probably also knew it was highly unlikely he would be GM in 2011. Here is the Wall Stree Journal article that explains it better:
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 17, 2010 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
AJ burnett?
VW had a good year in 2010. we will never get rid of him without eating most of his salary… so lets just keep him.
by upstate jay fan on Nov 17, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
Wells isn't really a capable CF anymore
at least, Davis is quite a bit better. So as things stand now, Bautista goes to 3B, Wells to RF, Davis to CF. That clears up the 3B position as well.
Noone will take Wells, and he should be a great defender and good hitter at RF, though probably not living up to his contract value.
Good enough for now
If nothing else happens, the roster looks ok. Still need relief pitching help and maybe a 5th SP, though I am hoping that can be Drabek.
we can fill out the bullpen
with internal candidates and maybe a couple cheap pick ups. Drabek is fine in the absence of a good outside candidate available.
The most important thing to do is to sign a 1B/DH, i.e. Manny!!
We think alike
But I still want a veteran bullpen arm, mixed in with internal candidates and maybe someone like Zep if he fails to make the 5th SP spot.
probably Rzep as the swingman
assuming none of the top 5 (Drabek) gets moved and make it out of Spring intact. otherwise, could be Litsch and Rzep starting. wouldn’t mind a FA reliever though, as you said, but if we keep Frasor/Downs I don’t necessarily think it’s necessary. Camp is a 7 year vet, too, by the way.
Wells was a 4 WAR player
As a cf in 2010. That’s plenty capable. I certainly wouldn’t expect Davis to have a 4 WAR season as everyday CF, would you? Of course, that doesn’t mean the team wouldn’t be better with Wells in right, a better fielder in centre. And Bautista at third. But those two statements are not the same
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Nov 17, 2010 6:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Wells was a 4WAR player in CF
but his defense was significantly below average. Move him to RF and is oWAR goes down a bit, but he’ll be a plus defender which will put him in a similar range, I imagine. Given who the Jays currently have on the roster, putting Davis in CF, Wells in RF and Bautista at 3B is the best option.
I would love them to pursue another option for the OF/3B dilemma (Davis would be a great 4th OF with his speed and better defensive ability than Lewis), but I’m not really sure what our chances are of getting Rasmus and the viability of the other available players. I still think the most pressing issues are 1B/DH and bullpen, but I’m sure AA has his finger on those buttons too. Hot stove season is still young, this won’t be the last move we make.
I definitely agree that Wells would be a plus defender in RF
and that it might be better for the team to move him there depending on who’s in centre (not sure Davis is the guy, though). I looked at it as being a capable centre fielder on both sides of the ball, as Wells clearly was (just as Bautista is a capable third baseman if he hits like he did in 2010 despite being significantly below average defensively – I see what you mean about specific to defense.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I worded that poorly
but what I mean is that it’s all about context – if Bautista (-9.6 UZR/150 over his career at third base) is a capable third baseman, than Wells (-7 UZR/150 last season) is still a capable center fielder. Neither is a good fielder at that position, but if they hit to their 2010 levels either one is an asset at that position anyway. Of course, that doesn’t mean you’re not better off moving them to a position where they’d be better defensively – to know that you have to know who their move is freeing up to play.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Don't know the guy, but looks decent enough
his numbers imply speed, speed, and some speed….
On the other hand… power… hmmmm…..
I’m a complete ignorant on D stats. How’s his D?
Festina Lente
In his career as a whole...pretty good.
last year’s numbers don’t look great but then any number of things could have caused that.
I swear he hit .284
The .320 OBP is underwhelming, but overall, not terrible at all
I rate this is a fair deal
if, as benk has suggested, the alternative was to call up Mastro to play CF, move Wells to RF and move Bautista to 3B, then this makes the team better than that option. As of now, that seems like the plan to me, and which I’d be okay with.
Mastro was unlikely to be league average offensively this season, and that’s about Davis’ downside, it seems to me. However, his upside probably isn’t a whole lot more than league average. If we split the difference between his 2009 and 2010 defensively, that’s about a league average defender in CF which is probably what we could have expected from Mastro. Basically, instead of starting a below average hitter/average defensive CF, we pick up an average hitter/average defensive CF.
Davis isn’t too expensive (made ~$1M last year, maybe he’ll get 1.5M or so in arb) and the trade pieces we gave up aren’t really that steep. I like this deal on balance but I hope this doesn’t preclude other attempts to solve the OF/3B issue. It also does nothing for the 1B/DH, so I really hope we hear about a Manny signing soon.
The Jays’ makeup for 2011 still looks very promising.
the deal is too fair
naturally we would like to come out on top
To Infinity. And BEYOND!!!
by YunelTheLazyLatino on Nov 17, 2010 6:00 PM EST reply actions
leadoff hitter.
That’s definitely something we can use. Put escobar at #2. Gives us some more options. We could also put davis at #9 to round out the order; I also like it because we needed somebody with some speed on the bases.
by ddbumpus on Nov 17, 2010 6:06 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I like Molina leading off (sarcasm)
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 17, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed totally
Number 1 or Number 9. Great double leadoff at 9.
do not lead off Davis
bat him 9th. Go Escobar, (Manny), Bautista, Wells, Snider, etc….
If you bat Escobar second he'll bunt
Davis can get himself from first to second without a bunt. Therefore, Escobar shouldn’t bat behind Davis. QED.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
Davis isn't a particularly good hitter
therefore, he shouldn’t bat high in the lineup. QED #2
I like the move
he had a horrible start to the season abd picked it up a bit as it went on. He’s a base stealing machine. If you’re planning to move Bautista to 3rd, he’s an upgrade over Lewis for sure.
Excuse me, do these effectively hide my thunder?
So where do you think he'll play?
have to be CF right?
To Infinity. And BEYOND!!!
by YunelTheLazyLatino on Nov 17, 2010 6:18 PM EST via mobile reply actions
He starts on the bench
The marginal upgrade on Vernon’s defence doesn’t offset the marginal loss of value the Jays would see for moving Vernon to a corner spot. If he gets a starting spot it would be in LF to move Snider to RF and Bautista out of the outfield.
Maybe the marginal value of moving Bautista’s bat from an OF corner to 3B offsets moving Vernon’s bat to a corner.
Ummmmm I'm missing something
how does moving Vernon to RF cost us? If he is in the lineup anyway his offense at CF would be the same as his offense at RF.
The offensive standards for a CF and a corner spot are very different, because of the relative defensive requirements needed to handle the position. For a humourous thought experiment, imagine Manny in centre.
but.....we have the same players...moving their spots doesn't change the total....
Vernon numbers would look better if he is a center fielder but if he is in right field a three run homer is still a three run homer.
We should have been asking for more runs all these years.
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 17, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
The opportunity cost of making Davis an everyday player is a corner outfield spot
regardless of where Davis himself actually plays.
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
Wells/Davis is much better defensively than Wells/Bautista also.
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 17, 2010 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
you didn't address his point
If the same guys are hitting, it doesn’t matter offensively what position they’re playing.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Nov 17, 2010 6:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Or perhaps the headache is really tumor and I'm hallucinating all this
“now if we take the same 9 players and move then around to different positions, we score fewer runs.’
the actual change in offense
Is between Davis’ bat and whoever else would otherwise be in the lineup (likely whoever would be playing 3rd if Bautista was in right and Wells was in centre)
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Nov 17, 2010 6:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
the fact is, though
Davis might very well be the best option we have to fill that hole (as of right now)
Guys he's trying to bring up the whole Overbay problem
Basically people feel like since the defensive responsibilities for a 1B are relatively low we should have some human mountain that can barely waddle around the bases but can hit 70 HRs. I’m not sure I agree with it, but you can’t just ignore the point.
right but that is an intuitive argument
And he’s phrasing it in quantitative terms that don’t make sense
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Nov 17, 2010 6:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Lewis could still be non-tendered
I'm thinking that when the Leafs win the Cup, I'll lose my drinking problem.
by leafsfan4life94 on Nov 17, 2010 6:23 PM EST reply actions
i think this will happen.
We’ll either fill out 4th of spot with someone else internally, or sign another of to make davis the 4th. We’ll see though!
by ddbumpus on Nov 17, 2010 6:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Wise
At first glance im unsure about the trade. Personally i hate giving up prospects in any trade, but i guess you have to give something to get something. I though both were decent prospects and i believed they would both eventually make it to the majors.
That said we just picked up a legitimate leadoff hitter and a serious base stealer, hopefully he can return to his 09 form.
AA obviously knows what hes doing, and i trust him, but i wish we got a prospect in return as well
Allows us to gamble at 3B
Acquring someone like Gordon from KC to play 3B would be a huge gamble but now we a fallback plan if that turned into a disaster.
Think of Rajai as Crawford
Without XBHs, BBs, with worse defence
To Infinity. And BEYOND!!!
by YunelTheLazyLatino on Nov 17, 2010 6:49 PM EST via mobile reply actions
don't care much for Davis as more than a fourth outfielder
and I like Farquar as a late inning prospect. Plus I don’t see much that Davis does that Mastroianni shouldn’t be given the chance to do. Maestro had better numbers in the minors than Davis and is a quarter the salary.
I'd guess you'd rather have Davis over Maestro
if you were planning on contending, otherwise seems like a waste of money and relief prospects.
BBB Prospect List
Where’d Farquar land in the preliminary list?
I like the move.
Gives us that dynamic base stealer that we haven’t had in a long time. It also gives us a lead off hitter, I didn’t really like Yunel leading off and I like him more as the 2nd hitter.
Depth move.
Not crying over the 2 middle of the road relief prospects lost. However, I’m always weary about moving tall pitching prospects (I think Magnuson is like 6-5). Call it the “Randy Johnson” syndrome.
as long as it´s not the "Mark Hendrickson" syndrom...
"Without a catcher we´ll have a lot of passed balls!" Casey Stengel
by jaysfanfromeurope on Nov 17, 2010 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
What about the Chris Carpenter syndrome?
by Ilovebjs on Nov 18, 2010 3:03 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
plenty of prospects and they cant all play for the jays
davis might lead the league in sb next year. hes a clutch hitter too
into the mashed potateos
i wish wells could play 1st! is it possible??
into the mashed potateos
that seems like a waste
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Farquar
is probably our best relief prospect (not counting starters who haven’t “failed” yet). I think people are selling him a bit short.
He throws mid-nineties quite easily from two arm angles and has a sidearm slider and changeup.
I don't know much about him
But he was also offered for Uggla apparently, so I guess management deem him expendable.
I am just sipping AA cool-aid, until he does something that totally confuses me…though the EE thing was close.
I like Farquhar
he’s got some command issues, though
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
sure he does
but he throws from two arm angles and is only 23, you have to expect that.
sure
a few red flags though – his K rates declined significantly this season – his walk rate also went down but was still almost 5/9 innings. And that .239 BABIP against this season is a bit of a cautionary tale too.
I was excited to see him pitch this season and am sad to see him go, though.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Come on folks
He’s fired up 96 steals in two years! Looks like a good addition for minor league bullpen guys! WAR WAR WAR BABIP BABIP BABIP BLA BLA BLA
.281 with 50 steals, I’ll take it!
All this buttoning and unbuttoning
Yes!
This and good defense (with the exception of last year).
won't get 50 steals on the bench
are you actually proposing we start him every game?
I think he is capable of being an everyday player
Looking at our options (right now) yes he is our CF. Bautista to 3B. This could change, but I wouldn’t be disappointed if this is how things unfolded. Lind learns 1b and Manny at DH and I am happy for 2011 with the lineup.
Always have Lewis to spell time with.
what makes you think that
in 10 years of pro ball, he’s done nothing
We have differing definitions of nothing.
As much as I’m not big on stolen bases, 91 in 2 years with 23 caught is pretty decent. Decent defense at CF and a .281 average….just a slight bit better and you have a pretty good player.
Thats kinda what I was thinking. Sure he could walk more but he hits for a decent enough average
Eternal Hope
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
to me it's all about his defense
if he can play an above-average center field, then at his career offensive numbers he’s valuable as an everyday player. But if he can’t, he’s a 4th outfielder
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
to be clear
i think he’s a great fourth outfielder….i’m just not sure that’s where we are on building this team….and when bullpen is a concern over the next few years, why trade from that area of need for a fourth outfielder
Tom beat me to it
I will let others argue the advanced stats, as most are more knowledgeable in that area than me.
But, I just looked up his stats. I am a fan of the stolen base and if he can steal 35+, bat .280, get on base at a .350+ clip and play solid D; I am happy with that.
Nothing is a bit of an overstatement, however, i’ll turn it to you; who do you want.
I would love to get Upton, Rasmus, Manny and Grienke, but unfortunately there are 30 teams and this isn’t fantasy baseball.
Let’s see what else happens, but this is an upgrade to our current roster. And if he is the 4th OF guy, then I am stoked for what else is in store.
A lot of people were writing off Bautista as an every day player as well. Look at what he did. Obviously Davis won’t hit 50 plus bombs but I trust AA fully.
by Ilovebjs on Nov 18, 2010 3:05 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Jose “platoon player” Bautista… nah we would have never said that…
incidentally I’m deleting all old posts and comments from the archives. Completely unrelated. Have a good day.
Eternal Hope
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
How about this?
I like the way the Yankees use Brett Gardner in the nine hole as a speedy “second leadoff guy”. What if Davis filled the same role for us?
All this buttoning and unbuttoning
a few people
said that above and I agree if Escobar can take over leadoff.
So much for relief prospects I guess
I’m kind of sad that this year we’ve traded away Tim Collins, and now Tristan Magnuson and Daniel Farquhar. I seem to think that last offseason, these guys were our three highly touted relief prospects. The fact that we’ve traded them all now seems to suggest that the Jays are believers of the idea that prospects who are already relievers in the lower minor leagues (below AAA?) are long shots as major league relievers are more likely to be minor league starters who get converted later on.
I think AA has demonstrated, if anything, that he considers relief pitching to be easily replaceable.
And I agree. A pair of players who may or may not stick in the majors as mid relievers simply don’t have that much value. You can find relief pitching just about anywhere.
we have a big stockpile
of quality starters. failed starters turn into good relievers at a pretty high rate (Purcey was never going to be anything more than a spot starter in the Majors with his control issues. now he’s a good to very good leftie reliever) so giving up old career relievers – even ones as successful as Collins – isn’t a tragedy
well let's wait until he pitches more than 34 innings as a reliever before calling him good at the role
but yeah, most relievers were starters in the minors. Part is just the number of innings they throw, it is easier to learn to pitch if you are throwing 180 innings a season in the minors than if you are throwing 50.
another thing they say about failed starters
is they often have one or two plus pitches with a couple other mediocre ones. when they only appear for an inning or so, they can use nothing but plus pitches, which also helps them improve their control. I didn’t meant to imply I think Purcey is a future stud reliever (do those exist?) but he certainly seems like he’s capable
On the other hand, these three Jays minor-league relievers were key components in two trades this year with Atlanta and Oakland, so it would seem that some teams do value minor-league relievers. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a couple of these guys turn into major-league relievers.
AA will justify it this way
its alot easier to sign free agent relievers, than it is to sign a free agent CF thats a lock to hit .280+ with 40+ steals.
into the mashed potateos
I'd want Alessandra Ambrosio as a GF, too but that's not going to happen
Crawford is never going to happen for Toronto.
a) Hates Turf
b) Would rather go to a contender. The Jays are close, but not yet
c) I don’t know if Rogers is going to take on another contract equivalent of Vernon Wells yet.
If I’m wrong then I’ll buy you a coke.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Nov 17, 2010 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
Also
what about snider at first? hes young and could learn, and already looking a little fat in the outfield. Snider a cornerstoner 1B for the next 10 years for the jays. Not Bad
into the mashed potateos
I tried to prove you wrong.
But, almost all 1b are 6’2 or higher. Snider is 6’
i actually remember
when he was drafted he was listed 5-10. maybe he’s grown (he was only 18) but I doubt he’s got much on 6’
the opposite
Snider has gotten more svelte since his mlb debut
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
hes not going to play the outfield his whole career
into the mashed potateos
Says who?
Defensively, he’s gotten better over the last few years. Why switch him to a position that diminishes his value? Because speculatively, he might not be able to remain in the outfield seven or eight years from now? It just makes no sense at all.
follow him on twitter
the rate he eats, he might be DH by the all star break : )
never know, I eat more than him
and at 31 I’m still at my high school weight
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
its not speculatively. its a fact
and it doesnt diminish his value when the team is in dire need of a long term 1B. it would make him more valuable to the jays. anyone can play left field, being a good defensive 1B is difficult. he young and talented could learn and could be a star 1B.
into the mashed potateos
Mate, I think you got it backwards.
Mostly anyone can play first base. First is where they put guys that can’t play anywhere else. If Prince Fielder has the mobility to play first… anyone can.
If defensive 1B was a dire need we wouldn’t be so quick to get rid of Overbay.
Eternal Hope
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
good luck with your twitter account mate
into the mashed potateos
he's better in the OF than Lind
and we can’t have 2 1B’s, so Lind moves and Snider stays in LF
Is this something of a compromise move?
Whereby AA is tacitly admitting he’s not going to trade for or sign a 2B and move Hill over to 3rd? I haven’t been following the off-season as closely as some, but it kinda seems that way to me.
Cannot play with 'em, cannot win with 'em, cannot coach with 'em. Cant do it.
Well the biggest name we were linked to was Uggla, I hadn’t really heard anyone else and since Uggla was traded to Atlanta…. Im gonna guess Hill is sticking at 2nd.
The only other option was to bring up Hech and he isn’t ready.
Eternal Hope
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Fair enough
I wasn’t sure how dedicated the club was to going that route
Cannot play with 'em, cannot win with 'em, cannot coach with 'em. Cant do it.
I imagine if the opportunity presented itself AA would kick the tires for sure. But I dont think anything will happen now.
Eternal Hope
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
I like it.
While I like thinking about Lord Farquhar throwing from 3 different angles. I would love to see him make it and see him pitch.
That being said its two minor league middle relievers for a potentially useful major league piece. Whether he plays a bunch in CF on a regular basis or as a 4th outfielder. I can’t really get too worked out about losing prospects that project AT BEST to be mid to late inning relievers.
Eternal Hope
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Again in saying that, I wish both Daniel and Trystan the very best. I hope they make it to the bigs and have successful careers.
Eternal Hope
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Baseball Prospectus used to say there was no such thing as a pitching prospect...
But you don’t see many minor league relievers grown into much.
I think he meant to say relief pitching prospect
Eternal Hope
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
no....Baseball Prospectus used to say There is no such thing as a Pitching Prospect so much
they used the acronym TINSTAAPP all the time. It is an overstatement, of course, but since so many pitching prospects burn out somewhere along the line they used that. Look here.
I prefer TLA's
three letter acronyms
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 17, 2010 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
I not a huge fan of contact type hitters that can’t take a walk. He had a better OBP in 2009 (.360 compared with .320) but in both years never reached 30 walks. I don’t think he’s a bad option as a fourth outfielder/pinch runner, unless we can some how teach him in spring training to work the count (however the jays haven’t recently been very good at teaching our own players this skill). I agree that we didn’t give up that much, and that subsequently it’s not really a bad deal.
Howevery, my other concern is we do have to guys in the minor leagues in Mastro and Emaus who are quite good at working the count and though they may not turn into anything if 2011 is a rebuilding year I think they have better chance of filling the leadoff/two hole in the long term than Davis . If he ends up blocking the way in evaluating whether we can internally fill one of our major weaknesses by starting while not being a long term solution then I am not a fan of the move. Mastro is hitting .406 with a .483 OBP (100AB) and hit .301 with a .390 OBP in New Hampshire this year. Emaus had a .397 OBP last year. As I have suggested earlier his minor league stats compare favorably with Gardner’s minor league stats.
yeah
I agree that Mastro might in fact be just as good as Rajai, but with this move, it seems the Jays (as well as a lot of fans and people on this site) think Mastro could use another year to see if he can hit for any power. he actually had a nice Iso jump this year so he could learn how yet, but I’m fairly convinced Emaus is nothing more than an acceptable bench player (not that there’s anything wrong with that)
I think at worst
this move blocks Mastro for a year. Really, I don’t think he was going to be given a shot at starting in CF this season, so I don’t think this hurts Mastro significantly. Basically, he will stay in AA/AAA this season. Davis is still arbitration eligible and so on year-to-year contracts anyway. If we think he’s not worth his money or Mastro is ready/better in 2012, we send Davis packing.
Also, while complaints about Davis’ OBA are well taken, fangraphs did note that his career OBA of .330 would have ranked 5th on this season’s Blue Jays, so we may not be in the best position to complain.
I have to say
irrespective of the merits, I don’t see the Jays moving Wells out of center field so that Davis can play there every day. I would be very surprised if that’s what the Jays did, particularly after a season where Wells was so productive and enjoyed a defensive resurgence (even if not back to average cf defense. I think the Jays are replacing Lewis here because Lewis doesn’t want a part-time role and that’s all that is in store for him
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
ya, I thought about that
and I hope you are right that this isn’t the end of the OF hot stove business for the Jays. But given what the Jays currently have, Davis in CF with Wells in RF is the best (and I’d actually be fine with giving this a shot if it comes to that).
well yeah
you might as well do that since it’s the best we can do, but I certainly hope AA is going to try to acquire a CF/RF/3B so Davis can be a good 4th OF/bench/pinch runner type guy, which he’d be useful for because of his speed and defense.
I dunno
I’m thinking Andre Dawson knees if Wells keeps playing CF everyday. Maybe the Jays feel that way too. I hope we don’t go from a Snider-Wells-Bautista outfield to a Wells-Davis-Snider outfield.
I'm not saying they'll never move him out of centre
just not this season for Rajai Davis
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I just think Davis is a waist of time for us. Good speed, okay average, crappy OBP and Slugging. I just don’t think he is a good enough to make a big difference. Sure we got him relatively cheep, but he still takes up roster space and is going to waist a few of our years giving him playing time to justify the trade. As a fourth outfielder, I think he is good. We don’t necessarily need a 50 base stealer, we need a 400 obp guy that can run decently, while still playing decent OF.
It is really not about what we gave up to get him, it is more about the fact that we got him instead of shelling out the real dough for what we actually need. I would have been okay with giving up a Snider/Drabek/Arencibia youth for the real deal CFer.
what makes you think
we intend to use him as an everyday cfer rather than as a 4th outfielder?
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I guess there is no basis my thinking he isn’t going to be a 4th outfielder, which I sort of hope he is. I am just more disappointed that our first trade is kind of a lost and found exchange.
Ichiro!
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
got cut off
meant to say Ichiro! himself only has one season over .400 – lots above .380 though
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
this is totally off topic
but I wonder whether the Ms ever gave any thought to batting Ichiro 3rd, particularly with the trouble they’ve had scoring runs some years. his numbers with RISP over his career are insane – .337/.439/.417.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
In the computer baseball game I used to play I put him third most of the time
figuring he didn’t walk much so his hits might advance runners first to third.
a .440 OBP over 1500 plate appearances over his career is pretty crazy
even for a guy with a .376 lifetime OBP
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
just correcting the spelling
I like the deal. Worst case upgrade in OF. Ideally great bench guy.
well
then that wouldn’t really be pretty good, it’d be average
To Infinity. And BEYOND!!!
by YunelTheLazyLatino on Nov 17, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
I think it's down a bit the past few years
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
personally...
I think this is a bench move for the jays…I think they still plan on Snider/Wells/Bautista in the OF and a new 3B coming on board…I like Davis but don’t think he’s going to be a starter unless they Jays don’t pick up someone else.
exactly
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
190+ Comments So far for a trade on a probable 4th OF... Wow
Either there’s nothing good on TV or we’re all excited this off season.
In my case, both.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Nov 17, 2010 9:36 PM EST reply actions
This off season has been so much more fun than the last two.
The last couple of years the team seemed to be determined not to make any news. Makes life rough of a blogger.
Didn’t we give John McDonald that 2 year extension last off season?
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 17, 2010 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
We are very lucky not to have Florida’s management
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 17, 2010 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
yeah but that was a few interesting days..
back to trying not to make news. The day of the trade was our best day ever for visits until the day of the Brett Wallace trade.
Food for Thought
This could be a case of taking a chance on a players upside
If Davis can return to his 09 form, lets say .300/.360 with 50 steals, we might be able to sell high like we did with Alex Gonzalez
Dunno guys, this doesn’t sound like a fourth outfielder acquisition to me. I mean why go out and spend assets and payroll cash on this guy to be a 4th? Seems more like an insurance move to me to get a suitable MLB outfielder in case we can’t get a 3B and Bautista ends up playing there.
i don't disagree
but I do think the Jays are going to keep trying to add an impact bat at 3B or 2B, I feel they really like Bautista’s arm out in RF so he will stay there – but if that doesn’t work out then the insurance is there to play Davis in CF, Wells in RF and Bautista at 3B.
He’s a great 4th OF though – can play all 3 spots well, can pinch run and fill in to give the regulars a rest a couple times a week. Win/Win move for AA
I remember a trade where a speedy outfielder was dealt to 2 pitchers.
It involved Ernie Broglio, Bobby Shantz and Lou Brock. Dare to dream?
So who's playing LF?
Many have mentioned Bautista to move to 3B, Davis to CD and Wells to RF. What about LF? Snider?
by Marcos Montenegro on Nov 18, 2010 10:26 AM EST reply actions
hate to lose Bautista's arm at LF...
…but agree with the move.
Anyone know when Hecheverria is supposed to come up to the majors to play SS? I love the Yunel Escobar trade this summer, and genuinely love Yunel’s defensive skills, but didn’t understand the trade given the high price that was paid for A. Hecheverria. At some point, the investment has to be tested at the major league level.
by Marcos Montenegro on Nov 18, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
that time is not yet
he just turned 21 and put up a .303OBA in half a season of AA. He is not ready for an MLB trial this year and probably won’t be next year either. At that point, we can either trade/get rid of Yunel or switch one of them to 2B.
He won´t be in the big leagues before 2012...
… and i´m not sure he´ll be on the opening day roster
"Without a catcher we´ll have a lot of passed balls!" Casey Stengel
by jaysfanfromeurope on Nov 18, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
If he has a good season he could be a September call up?
by JaysSaskatchewan on Nov 18, 2010 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
..you need to give MLB at bats for your future franchise players
$10 million dollars is a lot of money for a 21 year old (April) unproven talent…age would not be a factor if he was a “can’t miss” SS prospect:
A-ROD at 18 had 54 ABs, at 19 had 142 ABs, and at 20 he had his first full MLB season with 601 ABs, .358/.414/.631, 36HR and 123 RBIs.
Jeter at 21 had 48 ABs, and at 22 had his first full MLB season with 582 ABs, .314/.370/.430, 10 HRs and 72 RBIs.
As you can see, mega stars got at bats at the MLB level even if they were limited to Sept call ups. He should be a call up next Sept.
If he doesn’t crack the team by 2013, then its was a waste of money.
by Marcos Montenegro on Nov 18, 2010 11:14 AM EST reply actions
your standard for Hechavarria is two absolute, no-doubt, hall of famers (PED considerations excluded) though
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I think we could look through, if we were bored enough
and find a bunch of guys that never went anywhere that got a bunch of September at bats. I don’t really see a cause and effect there.
I guarantee you that “guys that never went anywhere” getting a bunch of Sept at bats did not get the signing bonus of Hechevarria. I do agree that I put AROD and JETER there, two future HOFs, but my point was that at their time they were called the future of their respective franchises.
If Hechevarria was not called the “future of the franchise”, he certainly is getting paid like one.
by Marcos Montenegro on Nov 18, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
first of all
inflation. second of all, that’s how much it took to get him in our Minors system. third of all, you can’t compare international signings to draft picks because the process for signing them is completely different.
All I’m saying is that the Jays before 2010 were not the type of club that offered a lot of money in signing bonuses for unproven MLB talent, so given the $4 million signing bonus, whether via int’l signing or not, Hechevarria should get MLB ABs in 2011.
In 2010 alone, for example, the Jays have given 3 huge signing bonuses to amateur talent (A. Hecheverria $4, A. Cardona $2.8 and D. Mcguire), more than any other year.
by Marcos Montenegro on Nov 18, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
but the only relevant question
is whether the Jays expected return on Hechavarria (his value) exceeds their outlay ($10 mil). If Hechavarria is even an average to above-average mlb starting shortstop for any length of time, the Jays will have recouped their investment and then some. The Jays could easily make their money back in one good season from Adeiny.
Whether he plays in the majors in 2011 just doesn’t factor into it, nor do comparisons to amateur draftees, which is not what Hechavarria was – he had way more leverage than a high school or college kid so of course he got a sweet deal.
You can’t base decisions like where Hechavarria plays on how much he’s being paid – you have to base it on what’s best for the development of the player and for the organization. He’s the same player and his needs are the same whether he’s making $20 million or $500,000.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Hugo:
I agree that each player takes a different time to develop into a legit MLB player. I just hope that Hechevarria continues to develop into the player we all hope he will become. That development includes MLB at bats just to see how he handles the big show. I also agree that he isn’t ready; he didn’t have a very good year.
I also understand that GMs need to gamble on prospects, and some are too good to pass on, like AA’s perspective on Gosen over Wallace.
Personally, I’d rather spend the money on lesser known draft picks, even trade down to get more picks.
by Marcos Montenegro on Nov 18, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
if the Jays aren't in contention this coming September
and Hech has a good year in the minors, I could see him getting a September call up for a cup of coffee. However, if one of those things doesn’t happen, I don’t see him getting significant MLB playing time.
And he isn’t ready to see regular MLB time right now, nor is he likely to be ready to start for a contender next year, as I hope the Jays will be. Thus, we need Escobar for at least 2 more years at SS with Hill (most likely) remaining at 2B. If in 2013 (or late 2012 if Hech develops super quickly) Hechavarria is ready to start, then we move either Hill or Escobar and call him up.
Agree 100%
The biggest IF is if AH has a good year.
by Marcos Montenegro on Nov 18, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
I’m sure we could find a bunch of superstars that didn’t get a whopping 50 September at bats when they were 21 too…
Both wouldn’t prove anything, and comparing a 20 year old Cuban SS to two of the best shortstops of the last 15 years (insert Jeter joke here…) is a pretty big waste of time.
Especially considering he had never played baseball in North America until 6 months ago and there’s a lot of other factors like social acclimation and learning a new language that Jeter and ARod never had to deal with when they were 21.
by masterkembo on Nov 18, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Piling on
Plus, while Hech had a decent AA, he didn’t exactly set the league on fire either. To my mind, he repeats AA this year. If he is really good this year, he’s probably ready for September and could be the starter for April 2012 if the Jays are feeling really bullish about him.
More likely, they are probably targeting him as mid 2012 to April 2013 as his time.
Of course, an injury to Escobar could accelerate the process if he is having a good AA season.
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