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Around SBN: Terry Collins, David Wright, And The Mets/Brewers Kerfuffle

Bluebird Banter Top 40 Prospects Countdown, 11-1

We've finally made it to the top of the 40 prospect list. It took awhile, mostly because every time I sat down to get the last ten written the Jays made some news and took my attention away from this. Or maybe I'm lazy. One or the other. Popular opinion seems to be that I'm lazy. 

If you missed the other parts, 20 to 11 is here30 to 21 here and 40 to 31 here

Alex Anthopoulos tried to mess us up by picking up Brett Lowrie who clearly had to be put into the list, so instead of this being the top ten, this became the top 11 and I thought we were going to have a Top 41 prospect list. Then the Mets picked Brad Emaus in the Rule 5 draft, so we are back to 40. 

No team has 40 real prospects, but when we started putting this together we found that there were at least 40 interesting players in our system. The fun part is that there are still a few guys that we can put into a 'just missed out list'. Hugo and I will both get to post about guys one of us wanted on the list but the other was too dumb to see how great that player is (I still think Nestor Molina deserves a spot on the list) as well as talk about a few guys that we felt were interesting but just missed. 

Most of the top 10 we were pretty much in agreement on. 

11. Henderson Alvarez (Number 5 on last year's list): A year ago, Alex Anthopoulos was calling him the our best pitching prospect and then he went out and added a bunch of guys that jumped the queue on him. He started off his first look at Dunedin great but slowed as the season wore on. He missed a bit of time with a tired arm and finished the season with a couple of appearances out of the pen. He ended up 8-7, 4.33 in 112.1 innings. After only giving up one homer last year in Lansing, he gave up 10 in 2010. His walk rate went up a little too, from an great 1.4 walks per 9 to a still very good 2.2. He doesn't strike out a lot of people, and it is a bit worrying that his rate dropped a bit from 6.7 to 6.2 per 9. I'd pretty much write off the slightly poorer numbers to the arm soreness and getting up to High-A at age 20. I'd think he'd start next year in Dunedin again, but at some point he ought to move up to New Hampshire.

10. Jake Marisnick (8th on last year's list): Our 3rd round pick in 2009, he is another really good prospect that dropped a couple or spots on the list through no fault of his own. Jake started his first pro season in the GCL and clubbed, hitting .287/.373/.459 with 3 homers and 14 steals in 35 games. He didn't do as well after skipping Auburn and moving up to Lansing, going .220/.298/.339 with 1 homer and 9 steals in 34 games. Jake turns 20 in March. At 6'4" and 200 lbs he's got lots of size and will add power as he moves up the ladder. Jake knows how to take a walk already. He'll be following Anthony Gose up the system but they are both far enough away that many things could happen.  

9. Carlos Perez (7th last year): A international free agent from JP's days out of Venezuela. A great prospect, 3 years in the system and he just turned 20 in October. He played in Auburn this year, hitting .298/.396/.438, with 2 homers, 8 triples, 41 RBI and 7 steals in 66 games. He also threw out 36% of base stealers who tried to run against him. There really isn't anything not to like, he's athletic, not athletic for a catcher but athletic, plays good defence. He'll get his first shot at full season ball next year, likely starting at Lansing but I wouldn't bet against him moving up from there.

8. Travis d'Arnaud (6th last year): I'll admit I had him further down the list. I still kind of think Perez should be above him but he is a good prospect and is closer to the majors than Carlos. He didn't have a bad year, hitting .259/.315/.411 in a pitcher's league at Dunedin and he threw out 30% of the runners trying to steal against him. There are no doubts about his glove. He was hitting great before an injury in May, came back then missed some more time on the DL. He turns 22 in February. Should start next season at Double-A.

7. Deck McGuire (2010 draft pick): Our number 1 pick this year, who we waited until the last moment to sign. A big guy, 6'6', 220, drafted out of Georgia Tech. Throws 4 pitches already, a fastball that can get to 94, an offspeed pitch, a curveball and a change. Struck out more than a batter an inning in Georgia. Likely will see his first pro action at Lansing then move up quickly. Hugo had him up higher, I had him lower.

6. Anthony Gose (new to the system): Gose was picked up for Brett Wallace in a deal that surprised us all. Gose was a 2nd round pick in the 2008 draft by the Phillies. He just turned 20 last August. He is the sort of player that the term high ceiling was made for, he has speed, a great arm, a good eye at the plate and, as he moves into his 20's, some power will likely show up. As a teenager, playing in high-A, he hit .263/.325/.385 with Clearwater in the Phillies system, then when he joined us he hit .255/.360/.426 for Dunedin. The numbers might not look that great but then you have to remember that he was playing mostly against guys that are older than him. Between the teams  he stole 45 bases, but was caught 32 times, so he has to learn to pick his spots better, but he has time to learn. On defence, he has speed for great range and, as a former pitcher who could hit mid-90's on the fastball, he has a great arm. He had 16 assists from CF. I'd think he'll start next year at Dunedin again, but if he does well, a move to New Hampshire would follow soon. I think he's got a couple years to learn the ropes before we see him in Toronto.

5. Adeiny Hechavarria (new to the system): Our big international free agent signing, we gave him a $10, 4 $10 million, 4 year deal. The Jays started him at Dunedin and he didn't hit at all, .193/.217/.292, but we moved him up to New Hampshire anyway and he hit better there, .273/.305/.360. With all the hype, it is easy to forget that he is just 21 and has to deal with a different culture and language. Folks that have seen him play are impressed:

"I saw him twice and he reminded me of a young Tony Fernandez," said a former GM, "both his actions in the field and with the bat."

Another scout said :

"He's stronger than Fernandez," said a veteran scout. "He's a live wire, with a good looking, live body. Everything he does has some zest and pop to it. He fields the ball well, he's not going to be a home run hitter, but the ball comes off his bat well. He's wiry. Wiry strong."

4. J.P. Arencibia (number 16 last year): Maybe we had him a little low last year. In our defence, when we did the list we didn't know about the kidney problems and the astigmatism, which caused a poor 2009. 2010 was much much better. He hit .301/.359/.626 with 32 home runs in 104 games at Vegas. He got the PCL MVP award. Everyone here will remember his first game major league game, first pitch he sees he hits out, second time up a double, then a single and another home run. Unfortunately he was used pretty sparingly for the rest of his stay in Toronto. Like John Buck and Rod Barajas before him, J.P. won't take many walks.  A lot was made of his ability to call a game, but Pat Hentgen said that he talked to the pitchers in Vegas and they all said they liked throwing to him. In his handful of major league games he threw out 2 of 5 that tried to steal against him, in Vegas he threw out 23% of base stealers. I doubt he'll get us a bunch of Gold Gloves but he should be decent behind the plate. I really am hoping he gets a real chance this year.

3. Zach Stewart (number 3 last year): Spent the whole season in New Hampshire and had a really good year in his first season as a full time starting pitcher. Finished 8-3 with a 3.63 ERA in 26 starts and 136.1 innings. He walked 54 and struck out 106. He also had a great start in the playoffs, bettering Andy Pettitte, going 8 scoreless innings.  He gets lots of ground balls with a sinking fastball and slider. He's a bit behind Kyle Drabek, but only because he was a closer in college and they have been building up his innings slowly.  They should be able to get him up to about 170 innings next season then he should be ready to challenge for a spot in the rotation in 2012.

2. Brett Lawrie (fairly new to the system): Anyone that you would be willing to trade Shaun Marcum for has to be a pretty good player. As much as the trade wasn't universally loved here, there is no doubt that Lawrie is a great prospect. John Sickles at Minor League Ball has Brett ranked #14 among top hitting prospects in baseball and had him as the Brewers best prospect. Brett hit .285/.346/.451 at Double-A Huntsville last year, with 8 homers, 16 triples and 30 stolen bases, pretty good for a 20 year old. Everyone says he has great bat speed. There are questions about his defence, but it looks like he should be athletic enough to play at least a reasonable second base but if he has to move, his bat should be good enough for any spot on the diamond. There are some worries about attitude, that's always my last worry, generally if a guy plays well enough, all those worries disappear. See Jose Bautista. Not that it should matter all that much, but it doesn't hurt that he is Canadian. If he we were sure about his defensive position I'd think we'd see him sometime this season, as it is I hope they will use the year to figure out where they want him to play and then give him a shot to make the team in 2012.

1. Kyle Drabek (number 1 last year): One of the dumber things I've read in the last while was from Scott Carson:

As for Drabek, I've only seen him pitch three times in the majors, but I won't say that I was blown away at any time. Average height (6-foot-1), he certainly won't intimidate opponents from six feet, six inches away. And I saw nothing that screamed out "ace" (though it was a small sample I admit.)

Thanks Scott. Judging a player on his 17 innings in the majors is always the best way to go. I'm not sure what he was expecting, but I saw enough that I know I'd like to see him pitch more.  Anyway back in New Hampshire, Kyle had a great year: 14-9 with a 2.94 ERA in 27 starts, 132 strikeouts and 68 walks in 162 innings. Add in a no-hitter and it was very successful year for the former first round draft choice. Between AA and the majors he pitched 179 innings so there shouldn't be any worries about him being able to pitch a full season next year.  He turned 23 Wednesday and it looks like Alex Anthopoulos gave him a birthday present of opening a spot in the starting rotation for him. As it stands right now he should get every chance to make the rotation out of spring training. 

That's it for our list. Hugo will be back to let you know which guys he misguidedly thought should have made the list that I was able to help him see the light on. Then I will let you know which players should have been on the list but  I couldn't get it through Hugo's thick head. And maybe we'll add some of our favorites that didn't make the list. 

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I love the depth of our farm system now. seeing that we have so many high ceiling prospects in the system is very encouraging

by pho king awesome on Dec 10, 2010 1:44 PM EST reply actions  

Our big international free agent signing, we gave him a $10, 4 year deal.

What a deal, only $2.50 a year? I bet the labour board will be on the jays quick! (i know its 10 mill, but somehow saying $10 for 4 years made me crack up).

Seriously though, without evaluating Lawrie, we only can go on what people in the brewers system says about him. I wish him well in the system, and hope he reaches his goal of making the big club this year!

"I'm not drinking and driving, I'm driving while drinking....Right boys!?"

by kudzupo on Dec 10, 2010 1:49 PM EST reply actions  

I hope he porves me wrong this year and he had a great year last year, but I don’t think JP should be in our top 4, given the depth and high quality prospects we have.

by lambo on Dec 10, 2010 2:01 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah he's ready to play in the Majors

and won his league MVP award. Pitchers like him. It would be pretty tough to say that some 19 year old is a better prospect. Other than he doesn’t walk much there isn’t too much downside to him.

by Tom Dakers on Dec 10, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

prospect lists

I guess I would put a bit more value in ceiling and upside than major league readiness, but you’re riight in that it’s hard to argue against JP’s MVP season.

by lambo on Dec 10, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I had Arencibia down a couple of spots, I think

6th (before the Lawrie acquisition, so really 7th). Tom had him 2nd or 3rd, so we compromised. Tom made a good point that Arencibia clearly has a future in the majors, unlike some of the younger prospects where things are more up in the air.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 10, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

even regards to the walks issue

he made a significant improvement in that category in 2010 (I think something like 5% to 8 and change) though it’s possible the astigmatism wasn’t helping much.

by benk on Dec 10, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

What's wrong with Gose?

He was shut down early in Dunedin, and although he needs AB’s more than anyone in our system, he wasn’t sent to the AFL either. Anyone know what his injury was and will he be ready for Spring Training?

by JayTeam on Dec 10, 2010 2:13 PM EST reply actions  

Nice job all around Tom,

just like AA adding Hechavarria last year I hope as soon as recent Cuban defector Leonys Martin declares free agency that AA is all over him, he’s considered the best postion player to come out of Cuban in awhile and a great lead off hitter, he plays center field, walked 78 times in a 90 game season has speed, bats left and a little bit of power.

by ClintB on Dec 10, 2010 2:33 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks for the list!

Also it is interesting that 50% of our top 10 (and the top 3) arrived in trades. Our system must be moving up the best farm systems list with the addition of Lawrie.

by JaysSaskatchewan on Dec 10, 2010 3:38 PM EST reply actions  

Does anyone know where we rank with everyone elses systems?

by KWJAYS on Dec 10, 2010 4:13 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

With the Lawrie deal I would say Top 4, with the Royals, Rays, and Braves. Good mix of quality and quantity.

by TwoEyesForAnEye on Dec 10, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

thats a bit generous

i’ve heard top 15 from most experts. maybe top 10 if things pan out.

Onions Baby Onions

by ohmybosh on Dec 10, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

This.

Was just going to post the same thing. You will be hard pressed to find any expert who doesn’t think this is at least a top 10 system post Lawrie deal I would think. I personally think they are 4th behind the Royals, Rays and Braves but thats just my opinion.

by TwoEyesForAnEye on Dec 10, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

one of the evaluations I saw said 6th

I’d guess we ought to be somewhere from 4 to 8

by Tom Dakers on Dec 10, 2010 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Callis said top 5

he’s the senior dude at Baseball America

by ayjackson on Dec 10, 2010 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

i should’ve read a post or two more, before replying

by ayjackson on Dec 10, 2010 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Deck
Throws 4 pitches already, a fastball that can get to 94, an offspeed pitch, a curveball and a change.

Isn’t the offspeed pitch his change? He has another breaking ball, a slider I thought?

by T_Mizz on Dec 10, 2010 6:01 PM EST reply actions  

Yup.

Also, he went to Georgia Tech, not Georgia.

All in all, very well done.

I love the placement of Adeiny at #5 even though some people are crying that his" OPS wasn’t liek high enough."

I’ve heard the same stuff with Jose Iglesias and it doesn’t matter a whole lot to me given their defensive wizardry, getting acclimated to the U.S., pro debut in a tough hitting environment(s), and most importantly video of them hitting checking out real nice (.

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if both guys have a handful of .300/40+ double seasons. Dead serious.

They do need to work on plate discipline but that’ll come.

BTW Yunel Escobar hit 2 home runs in 121 games in AA two years older than Hechavarria currently is.

Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.

by Frederick0220 on Dec 10, 2010 7:28 PM EST up reply actions  

not many 20 year old middle infielders show much power

He’ll get there…I think you are right about the 40 doubles.

by Tom Dakers on Dec 10, 2010 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Iglesias and Hechavarria (AA stats)

G 57-61
BA .285-.273
OBP .315-.305
SLG .357-.360
OPS .672-.665
HR 0-3
2B 10-11
SO 49-40
BB 8-12
SB 5-6
FLG% .967-.959
RF/G 3.65-4.64
So what does this mean? Other than very little, it means it is very difficult to find any daylight between the two of these guys in any category.

by T_Mizz on Dec 10, 2010 11:26 PM EST up reply actions  

biggest difference from those stats

is Heche’s 3.3:1 strikeout to walk ratio compared to Julio’s 6:1.

And I think Julio is a year younger than Heche.

by ayjackson on Dec 10, 2010 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

So how many of these guys have a chance at seeing Toronto before 2011 is up?

I wouldn’t be too shocked if Rivera took Hech with him, they seemed to develop quite the rapport. Also Lawrie seems to think he’s got what it takes and looking over the current options he may be right. Drabek and JPA are all but already on the team. Why not have Stewart pitch those 170IP up here if he proves himself in ST.

by T_Mizz on Dec 11, 2010 12:10 AM EST reply actions  

Stewart might be an injury call-up, but unless we move to a 6-starter rotation, I can’t see him pitch 170 innings at 2011 in TO.
Hech following Rivera? how? Barring Escobar being traded, where’s he going to play? I doubt that they’ll move Hill to 3rd for getting Hech to skip AAA…

Festina Lente

by HESS2479 on Dec 11, 2010 6:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Why not?

If it makes the team better right now then why not do it, especially because in this case it’s better in the long run as well. If Hech impresses in ST why not bring him up to play second? If the reports we’re getting are true, then he should already be a defensive upgrade on Hill (and that’s saying something) and if Hill doesn’t fix whatever’s wrong I can’t see Hech hitting that much worse than Hill last season. Same thing goes for Lawrie, if there’s no better options (as there doesn’t appear to be now) then give hm a shot to impress and win the job.
Also with regards to Stewart, I don’t get why everyone’s willing to just accept that Drabek is now the 4th starter but not even willing to give Stewart a chance to compete for the 5th job? Their seasons last year were not that far apart and it’s not like he’s making a big leap, he’s pitched in AAA before. I’m saying just give him a chance.

by T_Mizz on Dec 11, 2010 8:19 AM EST up reply actions  

for me at least

it’s because Stewart has only one season as a full-time starter and will only be throwing about 165 innings or so in 2011. that’s not enough to go a whole season, but I think he’d be a great 6th starter to fill in (6th starters tend to make about as many starts as 5th starters over the course of a season)

by benk on Dec 11, 2010 9:31 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll just second that.

that’s my reasoning re: Stewart.

As for Hech: you won’t rush him, even if he’s marginally better than Hill defensively (ant that is quite an “IF”), same as (forgive my comparison) you won’t rush Mastroiani to replace Vernon at CF (which is probably more of a defensive upgrade).

It may happen, but chances are very slim.

Festina Lente

by HESS2479 on Dec 11, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions  

re: rushing Heche

If what I posted below is true, and we’ve already used an option on Heche, then he has to be on the fast track, and will probably make an appearance in Toronto this year.

We might see both Bautista and Escobar traded in July.

by ayjackson on Dec 11, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

bad idea

the more time guys spend in the MLB when they aren’t ready to contribute, the more service time they acrrue on wasted seasons, the faster they become FA eligible and the fewer useful cost-controlled seasons you get.

No matter what Lawrie says or what you think Hech might be able to do in the majors, they aren’t ready now. Hech put up a 665 OPS in AA with 3HR. That isn’t going to translate into better numbers than Aaron Hill in MLB. I’m very confident that he will develop into a good MLB player, but that time isn’t now. Lawrie put up 800 OPS in AA at 20 years old. He’s on track, too, but no need to rush him before he’s actually ready to put up big numbers.

21 year olds who can play well at the MLB level are few and far between (think Pujols and Heyward). I think these guy will become good players, but better to start them in AA or AAA, see what they can do there while not starting their service clocks, and then reevaluate once you’ve seen their MiLB results.

by SuckaMD on Dec 11, 2010 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I get all that about service time and whatever

I just never got why it’s such a big deal, I don’t think we’re a team that necessarily needs to be worrying about squeezing every last penny. I think if it seems like a good baseball move, developmentally and competitively, do it.

by T_Mizz on Dec 11, 2010 10:05 AM EST up reply actions  

every team needs to be worrying about squeezing pennies

especially when competing against the Red Sox and Yankees and their essentially infinite resources. Even the Yankees did the same thing with guys like Gardner and Cano.

It’s not about squeezing pennies to be cheap, it’s about getting maximum value from your players so that you can allocate resources elsewhere to improve your club overall. A penny saved is a penny earned, and that penny can go a long way to improving a team in other areas if you are smart about things like service time. If guys can develop on the farm, you keep them there until they are ready to actually contribute to the big club.

by SuckaMD on Dec 11, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Why exactly are we worried about Hechevarria's service time?

when he’s signed through 2013 on a major league deal?

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Dec 11, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

See that's what I thought but

someone I think it was Tom but possibly not, said he just reverts to the regular rules after the 4 year deal is over.

by T_Mizz on Dec 11, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

it does

he hits FA after six years of service time like anybody else.

However, he’s on the 40-man as a result of the ML deal, so he’s already used one option to the minors. So actually there’s a sense of urgency to get him up here and contributing. In 2013, he must clear waivers to be sent to the minors.

by ayjackson on Dec 11, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

that's true

bit of a brain fart on my part.

I’ve actually always wondered, and not been able to find a definite answer to, what happens to non-draft eligible players (i.e. players not from Canada, the US or Puerto Rico) once their initial contracts are completed.

If I am not mistaken (though I certainly could be), service time still applies to non-drafted FAs once their initial contracts are over. Hech still accrues service time whenever he is on a 25 man roster and this will dictate what the Jays may do with him when his contract ends after 2013. So, if he has 3 years of service time by the end of that contract, he is eligible for arbitration. If he is under 3 years (and not a super 2), he is still subject to the reserve clause.

This seems kind of funny, though. Let’s say Hech spends 2010 and half of 2011 in the minors, as seems fairly likely. By the end of 2013, he will have accrued around 2.5 years of service time (lets say it works out to 2years, 80days). This will not make him a super-2. So, he’d be subject to the reserve clause for one more year. His means he has no bargaining power, and the Jays can sign him to a contract for the league minimum. This would represent a huge pay cut for him from 2013, when he will have earned $1.75M.

I think this is correct, but can someone confirm?

by SuckaMD on Dec 11, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

oops

I meant to say “spends 2011 and half of 2012” in the minors, but the numbers actually work out the same way. He would just have 1.5yrs MLB service, not 2.5, after 2013

by SuckaMD on Dec 11, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Controllability and readiness

Alex Anthopoulos has said that he wants to try have prospects come up once the team is really confident they can stick around. So unless the team’s in a tight spot and badly needs a fill-in, I wouldn’t expect them to take a flyer on young guys for the hell of it.

This doesn’t mean that guys like Stewart or even Hech or Lawrie might not make an unexpected jump – if they’re ready then why not – but just don’t expect them to come up on a whim if it’s doubt as to whether it’s the best thing for their development.

The other thing that Anthopoulos is big on is controllability, so you can be sure that he’s thinking about not starting the clock on MLB service time or wasting options on guys who would be better off getting more development time in the minors.

The idea that the Jays as a team with money to spend don’t need to worry about getting the most mileage out of players before losing control over them is silly. It’s that kind of thinking that gets you in trouble. Every club should be concerned with maximizing their value and control over players.

Also just because you have money to spend to ink players to long-term deals, doesn’t mean these guys will want to stick around Toronto when the time comes, so the longer you can put that off the better.

by jabalong on Dec 11, 2010 8:35 PM EST reply actions  

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