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On Your Request, I Compile a List: Jays Can Compete in 2011

With all the craziness surrounding the Christmas present everyone in eastern Pennsylvania and southern Jersey just received, it's easy to get excited as Jays fans seeing what we had all expected to be a shoe-in Yankee superstar for the next few years sign elsewhere.  This morning, Tom asked if this opens up the AL East for us in 2011.  I figured I'd chime in, but my comment got a bit long-winded, so here it is as its own post.

In a way, the AL East should be open for us because even though missing out on Cliff Lee frees up money for the Yankees to spend -- as Joe Pawlikowski writes for Fangraphs -- there just aren't that many places for them to spend it.

One thing that isn't brought up enough when folks talk about how free agent starting pitchers get overpaid is that you start five pitchers but only one player at each other position (though the DH frees that up a bit), so having a star pitcher does not preclude a team from signing or trading for another star pitcher.  Obviously, for free agents, this only impacts teams that operate on large-scale budgets, because other teams are limited by payroll restrictions as much as they are by the number of positions on the field.  For the Yankees, however, losing out on Lee is a big deal.  They've already missed out on upgrading their outfield with Carl Crawford and they cannot very well go out and spend the money they've saved on Adrian Beltre because they've already got a third baseman.  Basically, unless they are willing to move some valuable future pieces, they should be worse in 2011 than they were in 2010.

I don't think the Jays are far from making a run this year.  Positionally, we're looking at:

Star-divide

SP

We need to replace Shaun Marcum's production.  While Kyle Drabek probably won't do it, if we can get a full (good!) season out of Brandon Morrow and a decent season out of Drabek -- considering the (lack of) production we got from our fifth starter position -- if the pitchers can stay healthy, I think we should be able to at least come close to replicating the production we got from our rotation last year.

RP

Bringing back former Southern Illinois Saluki Jason Frasor (2010 xFIP 3.85) helps.  We'll certainly miss Scott Downs (2010 xFIP 3.51) and as little as I thought we would entering 2010, we'll miss Kevin Gregg (2010 xFIP 4.22), too.  On the other hand, I do think AA will be able to shore up the bullpen some, so I really don't think we'll be appreciably worse than we were last season.

C

It won't be easy to match what we got from John Buck last season.  If we're lucky, J.P. Arencibia can get us almost there.  John Buck was actually one of the better catchers in baseball (eighth in WAR).

1B

Assuming Adam Lind can play first base competently, I imagine he should be at least as good as Lyle Overbay was last season (Lind batted .267 / .309 / .498 after the All Star Break last season compared to Overbay's season line of .243 / .329 / .433).  I do think Lind will bounce back some and playing the field should help his bat some as well (see Tom Tango's The Book).

2B

Aaron Hill could bounce back from his atrocious year last season, though he could potentially continue down the Khalil Greene path.  If that happens, we're probably not winning in 2011.

SS

Even if Yunel Escobar's power doesn't fully return, his ability to get on-base and his glove should play fine at short and the Jays should be able to get about as much production from short as they did last year.  If it does return, we could be looking at one of the top five shortstops in baseball or so.

3B

Who knows?  I'd like to bring back Edwin Encarnacion.  I know at least one person who agrees with me here.  Last year, Edwin hit better than league average (wRC+ 113) in spite of a BABIP of just .235 and really wasn't an atrocious fielder (-2.3 UZR/150; -3 TZ/yr; +4 DRS/yr).  If this progress is real, Edwin is -- wait for it -- actually good.

LF

Travis Snider is already good.  He will get better.  I don't know how much better, but just pro-rating his 2010 into a full season for 2011 almost doubles his value.  Nothing against Fred Lewis, but Travis Snider is already better.

CF

Vernon Wells, please, please, please let 2011 be more like 2010 and less like 2009.  I think it can be.  Last season, vernon did not rely on an inflated BABIP (.279) or HR/fly rates exorbitantly above career norms (excepting his wrist injury in 2009).  He'll likely regress some, but hopefully not too much.

RF

Okay, so Jose Bautista probably won't hit 54 homeruns.  That's okay; given his propensity for drawing walks (13.9% even in 2009), I can live with it.  If he bats -- as Bill James projects -- .251 / .355 / .509, we've lost a bunch of value from last season, but we're still afloat.  And, really, with Jose Bautista, anything's possible.  Who knows, maybe he'll 60?

DH

If we do sign Manny, we're looking at a very significant upgrade from Lind's disappointing 2010.  Last season, Adam Lind had a wOBA of .309.  Manny's was .382.  Let him DH and he'll stay healthy -- he could play 150 games.  Pro-rate what he did at the dish last season (16 runs above average over 90 games) and we're looking at about +25.  Adam Lind's offensive production was worth about six fewer runs than an average hitter in 2010, so that's a big swing.

In spite of trading Marcum and losing some players to free agency, with a few low-cost moves (bringing back EE, bringing in Manny) and a little luck, the 2011 Blue Jays could very easily be better than the 2010 Blue Jays.  I think the Yankees are appreciably worse in 2011 than they were in 2010.  The Rays should be a bit worse as well.  Their young starters will probably get a bit better, but David Price and Wade Davis were both pretty lucky last season.  As a Jays fan, I wouldn't bet the farm (system) on 2011, but this team really could be contending for a playoff spot as early as next season.

Thanks, by the way, to Los Campesinos! for today's title.

Comment 128 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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I am another who wouldv'e preferred we brought back EE

I thought he was progressively getting better towards the end of last season. After the All star break he seemed to be better at the plate and showed some of the power he had shown in Cincinnati.

Who knows, maybe he will be the 2011 Jose Bautista.

Witnessed Playoffs last: April 28, 2008

Sincerely yours, Tortured T.O Fan

by Eddie.Teach on Dec 14, 2010 1:53 PM EST reply actions  

I wouldn't have brought back E5 for his likely arbitration award

of ~$7M. But now that he’s been non-tendered by the A’s, I’d love to see him here for $4-5M.

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

in under 400 PAs

he was worth over 1.8 FG WAR, which translates to being worth about $8M in salary. $4-5M would be a steal.

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

but given that the A’s grabbed him off waivers and then non-tendered him, seems like there isn’t a ton of interest in him at the $7M/yr range (i.e. what he would have gotten in arbitration). So I’m assuming he could be signed for a bit less than that now that he’s a FA (i.e. $4-5M, maybe $5.5)

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

definitely

but really, it’s highly unlikely he wouldn’t be worth his arbitration award. unless, of course, his 2010 defense was luck and we’re overvaluing the effect of Butterfield

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

then why didn't we just tender him?

maybe we thought we’d be able to get Rasmus and move Bautista to 3B?

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

or Upton

and if we get him back for cheaper, it works out anyway. AA may have been more confident about Beltre, too, maybe? I don’t really know

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe

anyway, given the lack of respect for E5, I’d be very happy to bring him back at less than his arbitration award, which is probably what he’ll command

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

$4-6M would be great; he doesn’t even block Lawrie if he rakes at AA/AAA this year

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

This almost mirrors what I think

Except EE. However, if the Jays sign him (again) I won’t be upset If he does then maybe we should change his nickname to Bad Penny (as in “he always turns up”)

Plenty of decent relievers still around looking for contracts unlike elite players or pitchers.

Regardless, it’s going to be fun in 2011.

In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.

by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Dec 14, 2010 1:57 PM EST reply actions  

I wonder if the Lee signing will change AA's plans?

He should sign Beltre now.

Even a mistake may turn out to be the one thing necessary to a worthwhile achievement

by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Dec 14, 2010 1:59 PM EST reply actions  

Beltre is looking for 4 years plus and decent money. Considering he’s coming off a record year, I don’t think the money lines up with the value.

by dexfarkin on Dec 14, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

In the 5 years previous his top OBP was 328. I’d rather wait to see if AA can get creative here.

by RogerbJR on Dec 14, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

what were his BB rates and BABIP in those seasons?

he was playing in Safeco, which is a quite extreme picther’s park. That would depress his offensive numbers quite a lot, especially for a fly-ball, not-that-fast, power-hitting type

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

301 BABIP in 2009

Certainly Safeco would depress his offensive numbers, but clearly he’s coming off a year unlike his last 5, regardless of the park. Someone will over pay, in my opinion.

by RogerbJR on Dec 14, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

in 2009 he had a crazy-low HR/FB rate though

5.6%, when he had never had below 10% playing in Dodgers Stadium and SafeCo his whole career. That screams anomaly.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't disagree but it all depends

with his glove, he doesn’t need to be as amazing as he was last season (7.1 WAR) to be well worth, say, $15 mil a season. Even if he went back to his Mariner production (he averaged about 3.4 WAR/season for them and that was in a park that really didn’t play to his offensive strengths) he’d be worth about that. On the other hand, he will be 32 next season so a long contract isn’t ideal.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Beltre would be worth it if he regresses to his Mariners production

but E5 could be counted on to put up ~3WAR this season, and he can presumably be had for a $4-5M, non-guaranteed contract. I guess it depends if you want to save money and get a player whose upside is “good” or spend 3x the money on a guy who might not be better than E5 but has much more upside. I’m not really sure where I fall on the spectrum, guess it depends on where that money would go otherwise.

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not opposed to bringing back EE

and I’m also not saying Beltre would be a better value. Just saying based on the numbers being thrown around, signing Beltre coming off a crazy-good year might not be as terrible an idea as that usually is.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know of any firm offers

According to MLBTR’s post a little while ago, he’s seeking anywhere from 5 years, $70 million to $90m/5. Generally I’d want the Jays to stay away if he can command that much, but at the low end that might not be too awful for the team that signs him.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Was wondering the same

and if he would’ve traded Marcum knowing the Yankees wouldn’t get Lee; my hunch is that — given what we’ve seen of AA — he wouldn’t pass an opportunity like that up

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Dec 14, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Just a thought

We still need a 5th starter. For whatever reason, I don’t have much confidence in Zep.

I believe Joe Blanton only has one year left on his deal. Do we trade the Phillies a bucket of balls for Blanton? Phillies would accept in a heartbeat.

by Rhinos on Dec 14, 2010 2:03 PM EST reply actions  

2 years at $17 mil

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I would prefer that $17m over 2 years be spent elsewhere.

Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

by Jevant on Dec 14, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok

Thanks. Didn’t think he had 2 yrs @ 17. I thought it was 1 left for 6-ish. And we have money available, so he would solidify the spot for 1 year.

But I agree. 2 years is too much. I thought he was a good stop gap, until you guys pointed out that it was 2yrs @ 17. Too much.

by Rhinos on Dec 14, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Phillies want to dump Blanton's salary

…so he won’t be moved unless the Phillies end up eating some of it.

by Marcos Montenegro on Dec 14, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Even if the Phillies eat most of his salary

is that worth it? He’s been worth exactly 6 fWAR over the past 3 seasons. Do we not think Rzep, Litsch, etc can put up 2WAR this year at the league minimum? If not, Blanton for cheap might be worth it, but I think we can fill the same production internally for cheaper.

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep

Agreed.

1 year at 6 and I would agrue for it. But 2 years at 17 is too much.

I would like us to bring someone it as opposed to Zep or Litsch, but right now they are better options then Blanton. I would like to delete my suggestion now.

by Rhinos on Dec 14, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

why is 1yr at $6M better than Rzep and Listch?

combined, those two won’t even cost $1M and can probably be counted on to produce 2WAR from the 5th starter spot. That’s a saving of $5M over Blanton even at your reduced cost. I’d pass

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

what did we come up with for 5th starter in 2010?

like 1.2 WAR? that’s including Mills, Eveland and Tallet who are all worse or much worse than Litsch and Rzep would be (as the 5/6 starters). absolutely no point in getting Blanton

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I have already said that

Given 2 years. But one year, I think he would be a better option then the current options.

I will look tonight for potential 5th startes when I have more time.

by Rhinos on Dec 14, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't mind

adding a veteran starter on a reasonable 1-year deal as depth depending on what we have to spend, though I’d prioritize upgrading elsewhere first.

  I don’t expect our rotation to be as injury free as it was in 2010. But combining Blanton with the AL East wouldn’t be my first choice for that.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

any other suggestions?

who else is out there that could be decent and had for cheap and short?

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

well, I sort of liked Takahashi

as a swingman because I figured he could help out in the major-league bullpen when he wasn’t needed to start, but the Angels signed him.

There are a couple of injury reclamation types out there. The Rockies declined Jeff Francis’ option of $7 million, so the Jays might be able to scoop him up on an incentive-laden deal, assuming his shoulder passes the physical. I’d give him a shot to earn that $7 million, but not guaranteed, and not if it stopped us from upgrading elsewhere.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

he was actually the guy

I pinpointed in my earlier Jays salary fanpost as a possible reclamation project. He’s even Canadian, now that Russell Martin has been scooped up (insert obligatory “that doesn’t matter” statement).

If he can be gotten for a low-guarantee, incentive based deal, I’d grab him. A Francis-Rzep-Litsch combo at the 5th/6th spots in the rotation would hold up, I think, and be quite inexpensive.

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean Francis

not Takahashi. Takahashi is not, so far as I know, Canadian

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

But its such a Canadian name!

Never Explain. Your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe it anyway - Elbert Hubbard
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Dec 14, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

John Maine

He’s coming off of a bad season and shoulder surgery, with a history of injury. However, when healthy, he’s got a 90+ heater, a good slider and a decent change up. You’d likely get him for a one year deal worth less than $2M with a couple of team options.

by dexfarkin on Dec 14, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I like John Maine

but his shoulder is really a mess. Still, maybe he can get healthy. Chien-Ming Wang could be another guy potentially worth propping up on the physio table.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

Both have experience in leagues with tough hitters too.

by dexfarkin on Dec 14, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Capuano

I read his velocity was back to where it was when he won 18 and had pretty decent stats in llimited action at the end of last year

by lambo on Dec 14, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

he'd be interesting if he doesn't resign with Milwaukee

I think they have an outstanding offer in

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Thinking the same thing

Would mind an incentive filled contract. Maybe 1 year 5 million plus incentives.

by ddbumpus on Dec 15, 2010 12:42 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I was looking at

Francis, Bedard and Webb. Based on injury history and what pitchers coming off injury riddled seasons were recieving, $3 mil would be tops for all three and worth the risk IMO.

by Rhinos on Dec 15, 2010 3:15 AM EST up reply actions  

berard

think berard signed with Seattle

by ayjackson on Dec 15, 2010 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I haven't checked WAR

Put Zep and Litsch didn’t look that impressive to me last year.

I saw a few of Blanton’s starts and I have more confidence in him. And what is $5 mil anyway. What would we be saving it for?

by Rhinos on Dec 14, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Beltre, or Lee, or Manny

Rzep was .5 WAR in 12 starts, so probably somewhere around 1.2 WAR in a full season. that said, he was fantastic in the AFL (whatever that’s worth) and was hurt a lot by high BABIP (though that doesn’t affect his fWAR) and also had a couple really bad starts early on, then settled down. Litsch was replacement level in 2010, but in 2008 before his injury he was a very solid 2.6 WAR in a full season. assuming he’s healthy, I see no real reason that he can’t have a 2 WAR 2011

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

or signing bonuses for our many 2011 draft picks or signing more Hech-upside Latin American FA's

even with a decent payroll, you don’t need to just throw money around just because. Money saved is money that can always be put towards improving your club in other ways, or saving for future transactions. Rzep came on well at the end of last year, and I can see him putting up a decent, 2WAR season at the back end of the rotation. If that’s what Blanton would give you for money $$$, save it and use it somewhere else.

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I did see his AFL stats

And that is impressive. Regardless of what they are worth, it was still against decentcompetition.

by Rhinos on Dec 14, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

yup, for sure

and those stats were pretty ridiculous. I figure if he has a not terrible spring, hand him the #5 job and let Litsch make the 15 (?) starts as a #6

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I think babip does affect fangraphs war

because it affects innings pitched. i believe it also affects FIP, albeit much less than it would affect ERA

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Dec 14, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't see how it could

(at least directly) affect FIP if it’s only based on HR, K and BB, though it could tire a pitcher out I suppose

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not calculated only on HR, K and BB

it’s calculated based on per-inning rates of HR, K and BB. Since a high BABIP will reduce the number of innings a pitcher throws, I’m pretty sure that — unless you’re dealing with a pitcher who hardly ever walks batters or yields homeruns — it works out that high BABIP tends to (albeit slightly) inflate FIP.

Courtesy, http://saberlibrary.com/pitching/fip/, here is the FIP calculation

FIP = ((13*HR)(3*(BBHBP-IBB))-(2*K))/IP+constant

The constant is solely to bring FIP onto an ERA scale for comparison purposes and ease of use. The constant is generally around 3.20, but can be derived by finding the league-average FIP and subtracting that result from league-average ERA.

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Dec 14, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

ahh, that makes sense

but as you said earlier, it’s not going to have nearly the effect it does on ERA

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Blanton

Blanton’s posted a plus 4 ERA in the NL (which is definitely a pitcher friendly league), playing for one of the best defensive teams in baseball – and you see him as an option for us in the AL east? Am I missing something here? Zep had his finger injury out of spring training – but regained his touch in Arizona.
Litsch came back too early from injury – I think the jury’s out on him.
We have some great options beyond these two – Zach Stewart could be one – but BLAH to Blanton.

by Paul Chicago on Dec 14, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm also in favour of EE

I’ve been on his bandwagon since the offseason began. I say give him one more chance. We still have Butters to help him out.

by 5th Starter on Dec 14, 2010 2:08 PM EST reply actions  

100% agree...thank you Jesse

I have been trying to say this for the past few weeks in various comments in various threads. 100% agree…sign Manny and, if we can’t get a better 3B or OF, bring back E5. If that is done, the Jays stand to be substantially improved over 2010 with a legitimate shot at a playoff run if the Rays and Yankees regress like they could. And in the course of such improvement, we still have acquired Lawrie and stockpiled picks for the coming suppsedly-deep draft.

We obviously need Snider to improve, Hill and Lind to return to good-MLB-starter level production, and Bautista to continue to be good (thought not necessarily 2010-level good). But if those IMO-not-unlikely scenarios play out, 2011 won’t be anything close to a throwaway season.

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 2:14 PM EST reply actions  

On that note, I have the most hallucinated wish ever...

You say the Rays are regressing. You say we need a 3B.

How about we get their GM (and probably the rest of the front office…) roaring drunk, and get them to give us Longoria (I’m a big fan of this guy)?

I’ll trade a sack of balls for him… Oh, and maybe Brett Lawrie… (It won’t be the first prospect named Brett we traded for an upgrade…)

I know… I know… I’ll cut on the LSD… ;-p

Festina Lente

by HESS2479 on Dec 14, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

The only way we get Longoria is if Beeston and Anthopoulos drive to Tampa, chloroform him, and sneak him back over the border wrapped in a carpet.

by dexfarkin on Dec 14, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

you say that like it would be a bad thing

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I don’t know how effective his range at 3B would be if we have to keep him manacled to it all the time.

by dexfarkin on Dec 14, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

ftw!

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Too many questions surrounding SP, RP, 3B, DH and C

If AA is willing to sign Manny as a DH, Beltre as the 3B, Soriano as the closer, and let’s say he got Greinke out of the hat for a true Ace SP, then I can see us seriously competing for the AL East crown.

However, these things won’t happen. EE won’t be coming back either.

by Marcos Montenegro on Dec 14, 2010 2:20 PM EST reply actions  

not that I necessarily disagree

but ‘questions’ can be a good thing. we have 3 quality SPs and 4 more (counting Stewart, not counting Mills) guys who can probably be solid starters and maybe better (this year or in the future). having a concrete 5 decent starters isn’t necessarily better than having questions

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

With Greinke’s price, he won’t be an upgrade.
Closing is overrated anyway.

Put the money elsewhere

Festina Lente

by HESS2479 on Dec 14, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

you're right

but we still do need to shore up the bullpen before all is said and done, “closer” or not

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

True.

Good relief pitching is very important.
It’s just that the pricetag for “closers” is usually bloated…

Festina Lente

by HESS2479 on Dec 14, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

:)

I am mentioned in a post for my long-time (often rabidly, occasionally irrational) appreciation for EE. Yay!

Although I am troubled you compared Hill to Khalil Greene…

Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

by Jevant on Dec 14, 2010 2:24 PM EST reply actions  

I definitely agree with the premise of this post

the Jays have the type of core that one cannot categorically rule out this year as “we’re not gonna compete” and point to a future year and say “that’s the year.” They need to be flexible enough to take advantage of situations as they come and make moves that increase the team’s chance of winning now without hurting the team in the long run. The Jays need to make moves so that when that “everything clicks” season happens the team is in a position to take advantage and win 95 games, not 88 or even 90. Yes, if you can trade a Marcum for a Lawrie, that’s definitely a move to consider, but that doesn’t mean you throw in the towel for the coming season.

Acquiring a bat (that won’t require the surrendering of a draft pick) on a short-term deal is exactly that kind of move. It increases the team’s current competitiveness without blocking any significant pieces, without handicapping the team’s finances long-term, and generally helps the team now without doing anything to hurt it later. AA should do it.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 2:25 PM EST reply actions  

a.k.a.

sign Man Ram to ashort term deal

by lambo on Dec 14, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

yes, please

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

+1000

Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

by Jevant on Dec 14, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I have been suggesting

Derrick Lee on a short term deal. He can split DH/1b with Lind. Not sure he wants to come here.

I would go DLee on a short term deal if possible before Manny. Manny would be a great consolation prize though.

by Rhinos on Dec 14, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Manny > Lee

in hitting. We don’t need Lee’s marginally defensive upgrade over Lind when we can get Manny’s far superior batting over Lee for cheaper

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Just basing on AA's

comments on wanting to find someone who can split time at 1st.

by Rhinos on Dec 14, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, I could see it happening

but I doubt Lind is going to be horrible (like -1 dWAR horrible) so might as well give him some burn at 1B. Lee on a short term deal is far from a bad idea, but Manny’s hitting would almost certainly make him more valuable, and he might even be cheaper too

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Lee supposedly has interest from a number of different clubs on multiple year deals. He was always my choice for a pickup if the price was low, but it doesn’t look like that’s going to be the case.

by dexfarkin on Dec 14, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't even want a 1 year deal for Lee

unless we couldn’t get Manny. But a multiyear deal is too much. I think he’ll command more years and AAV than Manny, and be a far worse hitter and only a decent defensive 1B (i.e. not much better than Lind, and not nearly enough to make up the offensive deficit compared to Manny).

My motto is JSM. Just sign Manny.

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Manny has the advantage of only wanting a 1 year deal. If he has a good year, he can parlay that into a good multiyear deal next year.

by siggian on Dec 14, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd be happier

giving him an extra million to tack on the club option. it’s the same outcome if he doesn’t pan out in some way or another, and if he hits, keep him around – we don’t really have anyone in the pipeline who’s going to play DH for us (Thames, maybe, doubt he has the bat for DH though) unless we’re going to sign Pujols and move Lind back

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

But a second year would cost a lot more than a million. The only reason that the Jays can possibly get Manny for cheap and for one year is because Manny is using that year to prove that he isn’t done and to get an expensive 3-4 year deal in the following years.

It would cost a lot of money to get Manny to forgo that plan.

I’d rather just take the one year, and then see what his price would be after that.

by siggian on Dec 15, 2010 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

sorry, I wasn't clear

I meant another million per year (probably like $15-17M if the option is picked up) if that’s what it takes to get a year+option as opposed to just a year

by benk on Dec 15, 2010 9:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Ah, yes, makes sense

But I got the impression that Manny was willing to sign for a low price for one year (9 million I think?), which is why it would be reasonable for the Jays to sign him. If it’s for 15 million, the Jays might be better off with someone else.

by siggian on Dec 15, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

As to why he might go for 8-9 million?

Manny has a problem. He’s really only valuable as a bat. That means there are really only 14 teams who could use him regularly. Some already have a good DH in place for 2011 while others are so bad there’s not much point in those teams signing Manny. It’s really only the Jays who have the money and a DH spot available (assuming Lind moves to 1B) for 2011.

 If Manny has a good year, the Jays or some other teams might be interested in signing him to a longer contract. At least there might be some competition for his services to help drive up his price.

by siggian on Dec 15, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

God, no more E5

I don’t care what your new-fangled stats say, this guy is dreadful at 3B and we have to factor in the 20+ throws that Overbay saved that Lind won’t be able to this year. He’s worse than Hinske at third, and that’s saying a lot.

I like the Manny and DLee ideas, but I have a feeling AA is cheaper than that. 2011 is going to be a 70-75 win year, with 2012 being his first attempt to really win.

by Original Aaron on Dec 14, 2010 2:50 PM EST reply actions  

is it projection, do you think?

because they make up stats out of whole cloth, that’s what they assume everyone else is doing?

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I always said that stats make my head spin...

Do you think my head is spinned out of whole cloth?

;-p

Festina Lente

by HESS2479 on Dec 14, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Problem is, everyone on here is running around saying this guy will give us 4 WAR, and this guy will give us 3 WAR and this guy will give us 7 WAR.

You are all making up stats for god sake.

All this buttoning and unbuttoning

by Marttisdad on Dec 14, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

mmm nope

we’re basing it on past seasons, actually

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

As opposed to saying

“This guy will hit .270”?

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Dec 14, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure what's more shocking

How reasonable it sounds when you put it on paper, or a Los Campesinos! reference from someone outside the UK. Can see the Jays adding a few pieces in the bullpen still but personally i’m still waiting on a 3B signing before I start getting my hopes up. Does anyone really think we have a viable internal option (Hill, Lawrie, Bautista???).

by TtD on Dec 14, 2010 4:49 PM EST reply actions  

I'd play the Jedi at third..

And start Rajai every day at RF, better leadoff hitter than anyone we had last year. I think Hill bounces back..but Lind is the biggest question mark in my books, offensively we don’t know which season was the outlier yet, and defensively..yeesh, AA should try and swing a trade for Yonder Alonso, that’s building for the future, and addressing a present need, find a utility guy who hammers leftys to possibly platoon with Lind if his splits persist at DH, and grab as many bullpen assets as you can and see what sticks to the wall in spring training.

by ABsteve on Dec 14, 2010 4:51 PM EST reply actions  

If we are starting Davis

I’d rather see him in CF. I know we went through this ad nauseum before, but Davis is a superior defender to Wells at this point, so it behooves the Jays to put him in a position where his defensive ability carries maximum advantage (i.e. CF), assuming we are giving him a starting job. I’d prefer not to have Rajai Davis as a starting OF if the team hopes to have a chance at contending, but if we must, he should be in CF.

Also, Davis should emphatically NOT be the leadoff hitter. Yes, he is fast, but his OBP is not leadoff worthy. He can still steal lots of bases and get in position for the middle of the order bats to drive him in from the 9 hole.

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Davis would be

a great 9 hole hitter if he had to be in the line-up everday. I hope we find a 3B so we don’t have to go there, but it is an option. But not leadoff.

by Rhinos on Dec 14, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah for sure

he’d be more than adequate in the 9-spot, especially with his defense

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

he'd be adequate

I’d still rather someone else played instead of him

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Encarnacion putting up decent fielding numbers like this year’s is a very big IF. You’ve heard this before but I’ll repeat: those stats only start being decently reliable when you have three years of data.

by Woodman663 on Dec 14, 2010 4:53 PM EST reply actions  

I agree

especially when Encarnacion missed enough of the season that we don’t even have one year’s worth of data. Really it’s just Butterfield that can offer any hope at all on that score.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 14, 2010 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

yep

and if the Jays bring EE back, it’ll be on Butterfield’s recommendation

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Dec 14, 2010 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe in the stats when it agrees with what my eyes see.

I thought Edwin improved as the season went on. I think he was hurt by missing spring training. Had he had that time to work on his fielding it would have been a better year. I wouldn’t be against bringing him back, unless there is a better option somewhere.

by Tom Dakers on Dec 14, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

if there is a better option

I always want to go with the better option (that’s why its better). Problem is, I don’t see many better options out there, other than throwing a whack of money at Beltre. That would net us a better player, but I think E5 for like $5M is a great deal and I don’t know if Beltre will be 2WAR better than E5 to justify the likely difference in salary. Other than them, there isn’t much out there as far as the 3B market goes, and I certainly don’t want to go the “try to turn Alex Gordon into a good player” route without a legitimate secondary option.

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

You're right about that

though the fact that none of the three systems put him much below average is a good sign. I’m certainly not saying that he’s going to be even an average fielder, but the point is that he doesn’t need to be.

Consider it this way:
His glove is half a win below average (-.5 war)
His bat is 15 runs above average (not impossible considering that he was half a win above average in roughly half a season with an awful babip) (1.5 war)
Two run positional adjustment (for playing third) (0.2 war)
Two win adjustment for average player over a replacement player (+2.0 war)

Edwin would be worth 3.2 war. Now, this certainly not a conservative estimate, but even if his glove hasn’t improved, he should still be worth somewhere between 2.5 and 3 wins if he can stay healthy

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Dec 14, 2010 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Just saw this on Daily Dish

The Orioles signed pitchers Jeremy Accardo and Kevin Gregg today to fortify their bullpen, according to multiple reports. Accardo signed a one year deal worth 1.08 million dollars. Accardo was awful this season but posted a 2.14 ERA in 2007.

They also signed Gregg to a two year deal worth 12 million dollars, according to Dan Connolly. Gregg posted a 3.51 ERA and 37 saves in 2010 with the Blue Jays, and will likely fill a similar role with the O’s.

We get a pick for Gregg right (as a B free agent)?

by Paul Chicago on Dec 14, 2010 9:20 PM EST reply actions  

yup

we get a pick for Gregg

by benk on Dec 14, 2010 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

So long and thanks for all the fish. I don’t know if I would really call it “fortifying their bullpen”. Gregg was a nice one and done, hold your breath, buy a draft pick guy and thank your lucky stars you didn’t have to sign him to a multi-year deal.

by Joey P on Dec 14, 2010 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Gregg is a fine reliever

not sure I would have given him 2 years at that price, but the Jays had enough pieces to create a decent pen without him. I don’t know anything about the Orioles pen, but if it was as bad last year as the rest of their team, getting Gregg surely will mean an improvement.

by SuckaMD on Dec 14, 2010 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

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