If I Said I'd Lost My Way, Would You Sympathize?

by hugo on Dec 28, 2010 5:23 PM EST in Toronto Blue Jays News

Hi everyone. Now that Tom has traveled from America's hat to America's beard (just kidding, I don't really think of my fellow North Americans in the context of adornments on an anthropomorphized United States' head) I suddenly find myself with no Jays news, no ideas of stuff about which to write, and no time in which to write it (you'd think this would be a slow week at work, but it's been anything but). But in case you all have more time on your hands, and more inspiration than I, use this thread to discuss what's on your mind.

Still no word on Octavio Dotel and the reported possible deal $3.5 million range (as tweetored by Ken Rosenthal).

I did think this bit on Manny Ramirez was interesting - if 'Duk is right there really aren't many teams that would be interested - which explains why no one has jumped on a deal yet. But he also projects a possible deal in the $5 million range. If Manny ends up signing for that much and it's not with the Jays (and they don't upgrade in another way) I will not be happy at all. Edwin Encarnacion is a useful player back on an affordable deal, but isn't likely to provide ideal production in an everyday DH role. Manny, on the other hand, managed solid numbers (including a better than .400 OBP) in even a down year). If the deal is in that range, and is only for one year (as it surely would be at that price, perhaps with a substantially larger club option), the deal does nothing to hurt the Jays' short-, medium-, or long-term finances. No, it's not trading for Ichiro, which of course would make me happier than a shonen with curry in his bento and Bleach in his Randoseru, but it's still sort of a no-brainer unless you are hung-up about off-the-field issues.

Looks like talks between the Milwaukee Brewers and southpaw Chris Capuano have broken down. With Milwaukee's revamped rotation, there wasn't room for him in their plans as a starter and he apparently doesn't want to relieve. I wouldn't mind seeing the Jays take a shot at him, and he might enjoy a chance to play a lot of games in the Northeast, where he grew up. He's never been a hard thrower and his velocity is supposedly back to where it was before his most recent elbow surgery (just high-80s). Wait, a changeup specialist with a high 80s fastball, higher-than-average home run rates, solid control, and coming off TJ? That can't sound too unfamiliar to the Jays, and I wouldn't mind having another arm to push our younger starters. That, and I'm not optimistic enough to think the Jays' pitchers make it through another season as relatively unscathed as they did in 2010.

I loved this Rocco Baldelli twoot:

assembling a roster- like assembling an art collection. tycoons go to christie's with blank checks. all else go to quaint little art shops.

Too true.

Any free agents, or trade targets out there you would like to see the Jays take a shot at? Or anything else on your minds on this Tuesday afternoon, B^3 faithful? If AA calls it an offseason, is it a disappointment or would you be happy with what the team has done?

Today's title from "Rescue" by Echo and the Bunnymen.

Oh, and if Tom is complaining about the Flames, try being an Islanders fan. Bleak.

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Christmas in the Public Service

I wonder if Dotel delays are visa related.

Yes, I think I would be disappointed if AA called it an offseason. And I think he would be too. I’m sure he wanted to make a bigger splash on the trade front than Lawrie, and deep down is probably a bit frustrated with the prices. That’s just my gut on the matter though.

by ayjackson on Dec 28, 2010 5:33 PM EST reply actions

that's a good point

I always forget that the rest of the government isn’t working just because I am!

You’re also right about AA, I didn’t mean with my comment “called it an offseason” to suggest he’d be content if the Jays didn’t make any more moves. I agree with you he probably wouldn’t be. I get the sense he’s waiting out the market on bats and spare arms, and of course he always seems to be working the trade market hard, so we’ll have to see how that pans out.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Dec 28, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions

I’m sure he’s still looking for a 3B with a solid glove and OBA.

BTW, Gregg still hasn’t signed, has he? Hmmm …

by Defense Counts! on Dec 28, 2010 7:08 PM EST reply actions

I think Greg has signed. with the Orioles

Festina Lente

by HESS2479 on Dec 29, 2010 9:38 AM EST up reply actions

Islanders. Ouch.

Did you hear they just traded the Wiz?

I'm thinking that when the Leafs win the Cup, I'll lose my drinking problem.

by leafsfan4life94 on Dec 28, 2010 7:16 PM EST reply actions

Yeah to Montreal… That blows.

Heh

Never Explain. Your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe it anyway - Elbert Hubbard
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Dec 28, 2010 8:09 PM EST up reply actions

I liked the Wiz...

now I hate him. Leafs fan and all that…

I'm thinking that when the Leafs win the Cup, I'll lose my drinking problem.

by leafsfan4life94 on Dec 28, 2010 10:51 PM EST up reply actions

Especially if Dotel doesn’t work out, I’d like to see the Jays take a look at adding John Rauch if he comes at a discount later in the off season. Actually, what I’d love to see is the Jays move forward with the idea of a bullpen anchored by inexpensive organization options, and bolstered by fringe Type B relievers that have a shot at a re-emergance in the Jays system, and who get left to walk for draft picks following one year deals. Based on all the evidence regarding relievers, it seems to be the right way to build a pen.

I like the idea of Capuano, or I’d like to see an arm like Grozlenny if he can be added cheap. Really, I’d like to see one or two more potential starters stashed into the system; guys with a possible middle rotation upside who have been derailed by injury or bad development, and see if they catch on.

I’m still lost on 3B. My thought is to go after a cheap placeholder like Lopez and hope either Lawrie can make the shift and tear up the hot corner or see what you can do in the trade market mid-season with Bautista, Encarnacion and MacDonald as your depth there if necessary.

And I’m all for Manny. It might be a total s***show circus, but at least it would give us a constant story and a big name for the narrative for 2011.

by dexfarkin on Dec 28, 2010 8:57 PM EST reply actions

Not a disappointment....

If you look carefully at what AA has said since the season ended:

1 – they need to find out about Lind at first and Arencibia as an everyday catcher. Once again thank you Cito! Great way to waste a season and not know about the players in your future.
2- he wanted to improve a bullpen that had a AL bottom 5 ERA
3- he would be willing to sign a player if the value was better than what they have internally

Point 1 is done. Lose Overbay & Buck & thank god Cito and voila the future gets to play!
Point 2 could be addition by subtraction. Lose both Gaston and Tallet. Or more specifically Gaston’s insistence to use Tallet in roles he was not suited for. i.e. against right handed batters. I’m seeing a pattern here….Cito
That brings us to Point 3 we still don’t know enough about what our kids can do. If we went out and signed a guy like Crain, Wheeler, Jenks etc for 3 years, they would be blocking our ability to find out and even showcase some of our young pitching:
1 – Jansen & Purcey ( we think we got something here) .
2 – The only “proven” commodities are Camp, Frasor and to a lesser extent Villaneuva. This is because Gaston didn’t like Jansen and worked Purcey in slow.
3 – Roenicke, Richmond and Mills (as relievers) could also be thrown into the don’t know enough about him category.
Now here is an idea I read on the 5th starter and I really like. With Litsch having 2 seasons where he was shut down, and his diminutive or less than imposing stature, would it not be a good idea to get him out of starting?
He also has a great cutter and a fastball with movement that has been clocked upwards of 94. He also has a change that would keep batters honest.
He could throw a bit harder if he knew he was only going 1 inning. The only thing would be getting him able to pitch on back to back days.
Litsch and Purcey could be the closer we are looking for so desperately. Let them go and see who wins the role full time for 2012.
I’m good if we let the kids play this year and showcase some of them for trades to get what we need to contend.

by Keith72 on Dec 28, 2010 9:31 PM EST reply actions

I think it is time to quit bashing Cito. Cito is done and is still part of the Blue Jay history and will always have a place (unlike our previous GM that shall not be named). Cito’s grand finale was annoying and long, but we have a new coach now. I can’t say the new guy has done much better, he hasn’t even won a game yet. :)

by Joey P on Dec 28, 2010 10:41 PM EST up reply actions

he may be a part of the history

but can i have that part classified and never spoken of….lol
Kidding you’re probably right I should let it go.

by Keith72 on Dec 29, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions

Can't see Litsch being a reliever

not if he’s healthy. Doubt that he would be very happy in that roll since he has shown in the past he can pitch against the AL east effectively. The 94 mph fastball that you mentioned, is a 4 seam fastball, and that doesn’t have movement. I believe he is the type of pitcher that needs to use all of his pitches to be effective, and that’s less likely to happen in the bullpen.

Also, until proven other wise, I think he’s a better option for the 5th spot than Zep.

by Alan F. on Dec 29, 2010 12:54 AM EST up reply actions

Give me Zep

I think with his run down the stretch, his AFL showing and being a lefty in the AL East with the tough left handed batters, Zep will be the 5th starter. As far as happiness goes, if comes down to riding the bus in Vegas or coming out of the bullpen for the major league club…..I think that choice is pretty clear for Litsch.

Also 94MPH fastball and a cutter and a good change would make a pretty successful closer.

I also say this it seems he has dropped behind (or at least to the same standing) as Zach Stewart in the organizations mind. At least when it comes to SP. Plus we have all of our starting pitching draft picks from this year. Some of which will be climbing pretty quickly (Deck Maguire), so he could easily fall further in the depth chart.

Seems like it’s time to think out of the box…..if we had seen the potential of Sergio Santos as a pitcher we would have a pretty nice little bullpen last year.

by Keith72 on Dec 29, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions

Agree with you completely about Santos

Should have possibly done that years ago with another prospect (1st rounder too)we had, Eddie Zosky. Couldn’t hit but had a cannon for an arm.

I think Litsch might be a possibility for a trade down the road, but to get the maximum possible return, it would be better to have him as a starter.

by Alan F. on Dec 29, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions

Good Call

I will agree with you that we should have done it with Zosky too. He was a top feilding with a cannon arm…..
Don’t know that Litsch’s value would be that much better as a starter if he gets hit around like he did last year. Also he frequently seemed to tire in the 6th and 7th. If he becomes a top notch reliever i could see a contender trading a B+/ A- level prospect for him.
The game has changed and unless you have a stud rotation like Philly or the Giants where each guy in your starting 5 can go 8+ on any given night, you need some of your best pitchers in the 6 & 7.
My projection is that the 2011 Jays with Morrow and Cecil still learning combined with Drabek and (I say) Zep on a steep curve, we will rely on our bullpen more this year than last year. So we should try to have some reliable arms back there.
Having said that….I’m just noticing that we are only slightly further ahead going into 2011 than we were going into 2010. Romero is a year wiser/ better. Morrow/ Cecil have some experience but could still use more. We also have a high ceiling pitcher that needs to learn and a mid ceiling guy in the same boat (Zep). Even Romero is going to be new to being the #1 guy.
Looks like AA was right on in now investing in free agents for 2011 as the pitching staff will still be on the learning curve.

by Keith72 on Dec 29, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions

we were going to convert Santos

but he became a minor league free agent and was free to leave.

by ayjackson on Dec 29, 2010 6:02 PM EST up reply actions

I don’t know why we couldn’t throw EE back at third and bring Manny in for DH. I guess that would mean Davis would be the odd man out. I am not all that excited for Manny, but if he can be turned into a trade asset, draft pick, or even a one year fling to give our team an early taste of success, then I would be happy. I am sure Manny has deals, but the questing is whether he will swallow the pride and take the paycut. We all know he likes to brag about how much money he thinks he’s worth (Afterall, the price of gas has been going back up). :)

by Joey P on Dec 28, 2010 10:36 PM EST reply actions

Please Noooooo....Said the kids sitting along the first base line:)

Putting E5 back at third is a recipe for disaster. I’ve taken awhile to come around to it but AA has the right idea in putting him at a position he can be successful at. He has good hands and foot movement. He just can’t hit a target when throwing. I’m now predicting that EE with some mentoring from JoeBau will be a sleeper fantasy pick at 1B/ DH.

by Keith72 on Dec 29, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions