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Around SBN: NFL Roundtable: Which Draft Pick Is Most Likely To Bust?

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Maybe AA and Co. think there's a flaw in his swing and if they correct it, they can have him return to 2007 form.

Average in itself doesn’t tell you much, but I can tell you that this is not a good trend:

’08: .247
’09: .227
’10: .196

It is very, very difficult to produce with a sub-Mendoza line batting average, no matter how much plate discipline or power you possess.

Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.

by Frederick0220 on Dec 6, 2010 4:59 PM EST reply actions  

Or at least close to 2007 form.

Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.

by Frederick0220 on Dec 6, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

He could compete with Hill for the guy who is nearer to the Mendoza-Line when 2011 is finished!

"Touch ´em all, Joe!"

by jaysfanfromeurope on Dec 6, 2010 5:26 PM EST reply actions  

Manny don't play GG D at 1st.

HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!

by BenjiDoc on Dec 6, 2010 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Ooooooooh, 1B defense!

Sooooo critical.

Manny is still the superior player and he wasn’t even trying half the time last year, haha.

Got on base 40% of the time.

Still a big threat at the plate.

Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.

by Frederick0220 on Dec 6, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, defense matters at 1B too.

If it didn’t, Lind would be a lock there for next year instead of just a lukewarm option at this point.

That said, I’d try him there, just wish the Jays had worked on it more with him this season.

by jabalong on Dec 6, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

defense matters a little at first base

It depends on the player. Daric Barton is an example of a player who is exceptional defensively at 1B, and this adds a good amount to his value (assuming you believe that defensive metrics accurately value and measure defensive ability). His defense and ability to get on base (~.400OBA) are able to mask much of his relative lack of power as a 1B.

However, 1B is the least demanding defensive position on the field. Thus, it is the easiest to learn. Pretty much anyone who is reasonably athletic (and pretty much anyone who can play at the major league level) can be coached to be a mediocre 1B. An example is Adam Dunn, who may be the worst defensive OF in baseball (in 2009 IIRC, he played 90 games in the OF and was worth something like -37RAR). When he moved to 1B, he went to like -3RAR, still not fantastic, but only slightly below average and increased his value to his team by over 3 wins (1win~10runs). This is why I think Lind will be fine at first (he can’t be worse than Dunn) and picking someone up with a history of playing 1B should not be the Jays’ most pressing concern.

The point is that offense matters a whole lot more than defense at 1B. If you can get a guy who is exceptional defensively (like Barton, but Overbay doesn’t cut it), that can make up for some, though not a lot, of offensive shortcoming. But, if you have a chance to get a big bopper (like Manny), it’s easy to find someone to be decent at 1B (like Lind) and the offensive upgrade you get from the big bat will far outweigh the slight defensive downgrade from a good defensive 1B (e.g. Pena) to an average-to-mediocre defensive 1B (like Lind).

I think Manny will come at a similar or cheaper price than Pena on the FA market and that Manny will actually be a better hitter (maybe slightly less power, but way higher OBA). Given that the defensive downgrade from Pena to Lind at 1B will have only a small effect on the team’s overall ability, I’d rather have Manny’s bigger bat than Pena’s smaller bat and better glove at 1B.

by SuckaMD on Dec 7, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

another example, further to Dunn, is Carlos Delgado

surely Adam Lind is at least equal in athleticism and defensive ability to Delgado. Not that Delgado was anything special at 1B, but he was at least competent and allowed us to keep his big bat in the lineup

by SuckaMD on Dec 7, 2010 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

1B defense don't matter that much now that E5 won't be throwing in the dirt

But Pena takes his walks; 107 in 07, 96 in 08, and 87 the last two years (downward trend, I know). His OBP will suck because he won’t hit for a high avg but he will get 30+, even 40+ HRs. Many scouts doubt Manny will hit 30+ again but will hit for good AVG and OBP. Manny is still probably the better hitter, but people say he’s a cancer and how he’s lazy, etc. Take the good with the bad for both and I’d be fine with either one.

HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!

by BenjiDoc on Dec 7, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Disagree about OBP.

He hit .196 last year and still had an OBP of .325. In 2007 is was over .400. He will likely give us roughly .340 – .380 OBP, regardless of average. We need OBP help, and he could give this to us.

by ddbumpus on Dec 7, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Manny hasn't put up an OBA less than .388 since 1997

and has been over .400 the past 3 seasons. Pena hasn’t been around .400 since 2007.

Pena is a good power/OBA hitter. He would have to be, or he’d never stick in the majors with the batting averages he puts up. But he has been merely above-average the past several years.

Manny continues to be exceptional at getting on base with still-very-good power (not as good as in his prime, though). I would be ok with getting Pena, as he fills a need on the Jays. But Manny fills that need much better and probably at the same price or cheaper.

by SuckaMD on Dec 7, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Manny is terrible in the field, but still an awesome hitter

he also takes plenty of walks. He won’t hit 30+HR again, but he still would have hit 20 last year in a full season. Pena would probably give us a bit more SLG than Manny, but Manny’s OBA is likely to be significantly better than Pena’s.

Bill James projects Manny at a .393 wOBA next year versus .358 for Pena. That’s a huge difference, showing that Manny projects to be a much better batter overall, even though he’d hit fewer HR than Pena. There is no way Pena’s glove can make up for that difference no matter how good he is and how bad our 3B is.

I would be ok with the Jays getting Pena. It’s just that Manny would be a much better player to get and will probably cost the same or less. Pena would be a fine pickup, Manny would be a very good one.’

by SuckaMD on Dec 7, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

re: clubhouse cancer

yes, Manny has been said to be a distracting influence, but he has said he wants to play in Toronto/for Farrell. When all he needs to do is concentrate on hitting (as he would as a DH) and is playing somewhere he wants to go, I don’t see why it would be a problem. I’m also skeptical that his whole “Manny being Manny” thing actually affects his teammates’ play and his team’s success. I think most of it is media-contrived BS.

by SuckaMD on Dec 7, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

"In Hard"?

Really?

Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

by Jevant on Dec 6, 2010 7:20 PM EST reply actions  

hopefully 'fast' as well?

HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!

by BenjiDoc on Dec 6, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

if we sign pena... does that mean manny isnt going to happen.

if we added manny and pena both, with bautista, snider, wells, maybe hill and lind theres a ton of home runs coming this year also

into the mashed potateos

by aquibtalib on Dec 6, 2010 8:30 PM EST reply actions  

then you trade Lind

at pretty much the lowest value he’ll have until he’s 60

by benk on Dec 6, 2010 9:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I honestly think he will go to the cubs. We’ve been rumored with a pretty good amount of free agents and trades, so I’m certain were seeing who can be had for good value.

I think because he’s a boras client, and will command too large of a salary will limit our chances. What knd of contract would he demand? I’d give him a 3 year, 25 million and call it a day. My guess on what he’ll actually ge is 5 years, 65 million.

by ddbumpus on Dec 6, 2010 10:42 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Soooooo

Can pena play first, bautista 3rd, and Lind/snider playing left and right field?

by ddbumpus on Dec 8, 2010 1:05 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

Oh well

I didn’t have a major hard on for him anyways. He’ll probably do well in the NL.

Does that leave us still looking for a 3b and a dh? Possible An outfielder? Who’s signing beltre?

by ddbumpus on Dec 8, 2010 1:55 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

One year, 10 mil

Not too bad, surprised I wasn’t for more years. I saw somewhere we were going after Derek lee. Thoughts?

by ddbumpus on Dec 8, 2010 1:57 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

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