Monday Afternoon Bantering: Batting Order and Scrabble
by Tom Dakers on Feb 22, 2010 6:14 PM EST
in Toronto Blue Jays Analysis
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PrintSo our ever-lovin' manager has decided that Aaron Hill and Adam Lind will bat second and third respectively again this year according to posts by Jordan Bastian and Richard Griffin. Both have Cito saying he wants Hill and Lind "comfortable". I guess the prevailing opinion is Lind can't handle the 4th spot, on the evidence of the 4 games he hit cleanup last year. His batting line in those 4 games was .294/.294/.471. I don't know, don't you think having the manager talk about how he isn't comfortable in that spot more likely to "play with his mind" than just sticking him there and saying 'it's no big deal, just hit like you always do'.
I mean Lind is a grown up and, as we've been told 100,000 times now, it's a rebuilding year, so if you want him in that spot, put him there and leave him until he gets comfortable. It isn't like he's being asked to play catcher or asked to do brain surgery. If the manager doesn't make a big deal about it, don't you think the player will follow suit at some point?
Griffin finishes with has this little zinger at Cito, Cito says
When Lind gets here I'll make sure I talk to him."
Lind has been here for a couple of weeks already.
Cito also tells the two of them that Jose Bautista will be the leadoff man and Vernon will hit fourth. I hate the idea of Bautista leading off against RHP and I hate even more that Cito has made up his before the first spring training game. I guess it wouldn't bother me so much if Cito wasn't so intractable once he makes a decision. I'd like him to, you know, see if a platoon setup could be worked out.
Also, in Griffin's blog entry from yesterday, Richard wondered why Cito hadn't made an appearance before today's first 'official' workout:
talking casually with newcomer Brandon Morrow every day this week in the near-empty spring training clubhouse it's clear that he doesn't really know many people here and that new pitching coach Bruce Walton is the only major-league coach that came early. The talented but unproven Morrow is being counted on as a mid-rotation starter, but has likely heard nothing encouraging from anyone in charge since phone conversations with GM Alex Anthopoulos as he now works out with virtual strangers. Perhaps Cito had visa problems. Oh wait, he lives at EastLake Woodlands about a 15-minute drive from the Bobby Mattick Training Centre. Maybe I'm overreacting but I don't think so and it's not right.
Strange to see one of the local media guys say anything remotely negative about Cito.
And in Bastian's blog he mentions he talked to Marc Rzepczynski about the nickname Scrabble:
After today's workout, I headed over to Rzepczynski's locker and asked him if he had heard the nickname some of the Blue Jays' bloggers had given him since he joined the club.
"Scrabble?" he said with a laugh. "Yeah. A buddy of mine told me about it."
He shook his head and smiled.
"Add it to the list..." he said.
"Why? What else have you been called?" I asked.
"Alphabet. Eye chart," Rzepczynski replied with a laugh. "I don't know. There's a lot."
There's only one problem with calling the lefty "Scrabble." There is only one "Z" included in the famous word game.
"I have two in my last name," he said.
Yeah, the only problem with the nickname is that there is only one Z in the box. Hey Jordan...You only have 7 tiles to use at a time and you aren't allowed to use names in the game as well. Those are problems with the nickname too, but you name me a major league last name worth more points.
Hmmmmm I guess if someone already had the work SKI on the board and there was an R in another word 8 spaces before it in line with the SKI and if you had the letters ZEPCZYN in your tiles (let's say the second Z is a blank, wild card, tile) and you were playing a game where names were allowed, you could really clean up. 40 points (well actually less than 40 with the blank tile), and you would almost have to hit a triple word score or some bonus space some where in that. I'd imagine it would be a million to one shot.
But it is cool he asked. Thanks Jordan.
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LOL, I like Eye Chart
FYI — there are two blank tiles in scrabble so you can still work in Rzepczynski — also there could be several words in parallel that might allow you to lay Rzepczynski out on the board — bottom line, there are many ways you could play Rzepczynski except, as noted, common nouns are not allowed
it is not clear that Morrow is being treated poorly. It takes a while to get chemistry with new team mates does it note? Like first day of school.
Still...
you’d a word to build on….it would have to be ski….and there would have to be another letter somewhere to help build the word…I used R cause it was easiest, l since you only have 7 tiles to use….
u can build across multiple words …. so Rzepczynski has eleven letters …. so if there are, for example, four words going up and down in parallel that contained the needed letters … you could make Rzepczynski — your letter r, board play Z, your letter e, board play P, your letter c, board play blank tile Z, your letter y, board play N, your letter s, board play K, your letter i
it is certainly as rare as a royal flush in poker, but not impossible except that proper nouns are not permitted —
this response courtesy of years of scrabble play with my grandmother who thrashed me regularly until I turned the tables on her in high school
I don't know what is better...
Referring to Buck Martinez as an old woman or the rambling last paragraph trying to explain how one would get Rzep’s name in scrabble.
Anyways, the more of this I hear about Clarance, the less I like.
August 11th, 2010 – That’s my prediction of when Cito falls asleep at a game. I may add it to my signature.
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Feb 22, 2010 6:52 PM EST reply actions
Well go figure Cito continues to manage like an idiot...
Putting the best hitter in the 4th spot, GG there.
Also my hair is longer.
yea, if this is a bad season for Wells, it could be quite painful
I really would like to see if the Jays could get Lind acclimatised to the cleanup role
Why?
The best overall hitter hits third, even if he also has the best power. If Hill has even 70% of his power return, he goes to the fourth hole no questions asked, perfect spot for the free swinger seeing how we lack anyone like Adam Dunn.
You mean someone who doesn't care about playing baseball?
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Feb 22, 2010 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
don't the lineup optimizers
usually have the worst hitter in the lineup bat third?
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
where do you get this lineup optimizer stuff? I would be interested in reading more about it if you have links, thx
by aagoodfella on Feb 22, 2010 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/3/17/795946/optimizing-your-lineup-by
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Playoffs here we come!!!!!
With Bautista leading off and Wells hitting cleanup there is no way we can lose
I'm going to attempt to introduce the Sarcasm font
With Bautista leading off and Wells hitting cleanup there is no way we can lose
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Feb 22, 2010 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
Or
The Yankees didn't buy the world series
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Feb 22, 2010 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
Or
Vernon is worth every penny
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Feb 22, 2010 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
Or
Brodeur deserves a shot vs the Germans
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Feb 22, 2010 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not a fan of Cito, but I don't know if there are many better lineup options yet
Who else would you put leadoff. I believe that ouside of Ruiz, he had the best OBP against lefties, and 3rd best against righties? Of course, I’m all for putting in a platoon partner, if it is indeed an upgrade. Or for that matter, putting Lind, Wells, Snider and Ruiz (DH) out there, but I don’t think that’s going to happen.
As for the 4 spot, I’m also not sure who would be better than Wells there. He should bounce back, I think. I’d rather Lind batting 3rd, cause you’re best hitter is 3rd, and the best hitter isn’t Wells or Hill (and Snider has to prove himself a little more). If you put Overbay 4th, then you have back to back lefties, and Overbay might not be that much better than Wells in the cleanup spot. Snider still needs to prove something, and Encarnacion is not our cleanup man.
One option would be to flip Wells into the 5th spot, Overbay into the 2nd (I’d like Overbay hitting 2nd) and Hill into the 4th (or Wells 4th, Hill 5th). I expect that Wells and Hill will have similar seasons, in that both will do reasonably well.
Bottom line: I can’t shake my head too much about the proposed lineup yet. My biggest beef is if he sticks with the SAME lineup for months, regardless of performance, out of fear of hurting someone’s confidence.
One thing that I’ll admit is concerning though is that he has seemingly made up his mind already. He should at least wait for Spring training to begin before giving out jobs.
Hill should hit 4th
Bautista did relatively well in the leadoff spot last year. Taking walks is something that can be learned, and planned for. Ask Scutaro. I bet Gene Tenace had a lot to do with Scutaro’s success in earning walks, and hopefully was behind JoBau’s .349 OBP with such a low average. Too bad he’s gone.
JoBau has a great eye, and I am confident that given the chance, he will post an OBP over .350, which isn’t ideal, but isn’t too bad.
Wells, on the other hand, should be hitting 6-7 until he proves he still knows how to play baseball. Hill should be hitting 4th, with Overbay in the 2 hole, maybe EE.
Do we really need to start a petition to about preventing Batista from being our leadoff hitter?
Why is are batting order being determined before spring training even starts?
I thought fans are supposed to pick on GM’s, not coaches?
Shouldn’t it be mandatory that the coaches be the first ones to show up at spring training? It is nice to see our season start off with an apathetic tone from the coaches
Cito is great...
Only needs one day to look at the players…. and taataaaa… he got all the answers!
Bautista will lead off… Hill and Lind to follow…. Wells cleaning up!
He also set his starters yesterday with his comment that Morrow, Tallet and McGowan should have a shot for the starting 5! (Bet we´ll start with Marcum, Romero, Morrow, Tallet, McGowan)
At least he could remember the names of the “other 2 guys” … Scrabble and Cecil! Bad luck… they´ll start at AAA!
by jaysfanfromeurope on Feb 23, 2010 7:47 AM EST reply actions
I can just picture Cito going around telling players that he knows what is wrong with their swings before he even sees them swing, lol. He has probably mistakenly gone up to a writer or reporter and complained about their horrible shape thinking they were on the team. For all we know, Cito keeps saying Batista is going to lead off thinking that Batista is someone else. He probably has his own names for players.
Hahaha... Cito´d be great in Abbott/Costello´s ""Who´s on first"
LOL about the horrible shape of the reporters ;)
We could have started Spring training in April… cause Cito knows best after one day… or even before ….
Well… stay calm… Joey is wright…. We really don´t know who Cito was talking about when he told the reporters about Hill, Lind and Wells!
by jaysfanfromeurope on Feb 23, 2010 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
Geez...
First off, Griff’s little shot at the end of his column? It’s a nice bit of character assassination, but it sounds a lot more like Gaston was talking about that day, which was when the flip was made, as opposed to actually signing into camp. So Cito’s planning to talk to him when he gets to the clubhouse from, say, field two, as opposed to not being aware he’s even in Dunedin.
Second, as for the batting order, if you’re expecting Wells to have a bounceback year, and doing everything possible to make that happen, starting him in the four hole makes sense. If he struggles, you then slot Lind back. It’s not my optimum lineup, but trying to keep hitters where they are comfortable is a legitimate concern. Just because Lind projects like a four spot guy doesn’t mean he has to be. And, oddly enough, Gaston kind of has the track record with managing hitters to deserve at least a little crediability that he’s got some clue what is important to getting offense.
I don’t know, I guess it feels like the Jays blogosphere is just looking for reasons, any reason, to paint Cito as a senile hasbeen.
Considering how blurred the formal lines of communication get during Spring Training in every camp, I think that’s a rather weak issue to have.
Ok...
I disagree, I think a manager worth his salt would talk to his best player about where he’s going to bat before he would talk to a reporter about. I also think a pitcher you traded for and wanted in the rotation, you’d maybe give a call to and welcome to the team.
Wait, now the lines are getting crossed. The Toronto organization traded for Morrow. The fact that no one’s welcomed him is now on Cito solely? And, considering that Lind is your best player, shouldn’t any manager worth his salt respect where the player feels most comfortable? Musing to the press about what you’re thinking at the moment of where to slot guys, and somehow disrespecting Lind by leaving him in the role he said he wanted to be in doesn’t match up for me. It’s not like they’re following Twitter to see what the lineup will be for the first intersquad day.
I’m all for criticism when it is due, but this feels like the start of the JP Ricciardi-Dick Griffin miasma, and everything somehow was the solely product of JP’s maliciously planned evil incompetance, or blind luck.
Yes...I think the Manager could take a moment and call a player they trade for....
and yeah I think a manager talks to a player about where he hits before he talks to the press. And yeah I think a manager ought to know when his best player has been in camp for 2 weeks.
shrug If that’s the narrative, I guess that’s what we’ll get to read for the next month. But, you know, tell me something. How many managers are on the phone with their new trades prior to camp? How many show up before the first day of Spring Training? Seriously, how many? One hundred percent? Fifty? Twenty-five? Or is this how most managers operate, and Griffin is looking to make an axe to grind and it fits in with the already decided box of ‘useless senile old man’ of the blogosphere?
And since I’ve already said where I stand on the two other points (silly non-issue/possible out of context quote by a proven objectivity challenged reporter), there’s not much point arguing ‘yes it is/no it isn’t’ back and forth.
you haven't heard of managers talking to their new players when they sign them?
Ok. Yeah I think Cito should communicate with his players. If you want me not to say that, then yeah might not want to read this year. He had the clubhouse revolt because he didn’t talk to players and apparently he hasn’t changed
Tom, you’re taking Dick Griffin as absolute fact because it fits into the narrative you believe. Do you have the real story about what happened in the clubhouse? I’ve heard a dozen different ones, and none of them are the same. Griffin could be 100 percent correct, but let’s take him with the grain of salt he’s overwhelming proven to deserve.
You haven’t heard of managers talking to their new players when they sign them
Well, I haven’t heard that it was standard for every possible roster signing to get a call prior to spring training from the manager. I always assumed that the organization handles things until Spring Training, when the manager takes over. But hey, if you’re telling me that’s incorrect with most teams in baseball, I guess Griffin’s right.
He going to be blamed for alot of things this year. He's leaving us soon so who cares if they roast him on the way out.
Its pretty obvious that the game has passed him by. All these old school managers have no clue how to interact with young players now a days. Look at the NFL and how teams want younger coaches. They want guys that can relate to the youth cuz the young guys need some extra pampering these days. They want a coach to be the drummer in rock band….not the guy telling them to turn in down.
He going to be blamed for alot of things this year. He’s leaving us soon so who cares if they roast him on the way out.
Because bad or unfounded criticism dilutes and muddles useful criticism. If Hill is struggling in May, I’d rather talk about him chasing balls out of the zone or trying to go to the opposite field with everything as opposed to it being Cito’s fault for not batting him third instead of second.
yeah...that's a fair comparison....
I think Cito should talk to his players…so that equals blaming him if a player bats poorly…..ok. Holy man, and you are complaining about unfounded criticism.
If that had been my response to you, the point would be valid
However, it was to syc as an example of the kind of poor criticism that ends up dominating the conversation. Much like Wells having a bad year because ‘he doesn’t care’ which became gospel on many blogs, and killed any real discussion about what might be wrong.
And let’s not get things too broad. I’m talking about two specific criticisms; that he didn’t call Morrow and welcome him to the team and that he didn’t discuss that he’ll now go into camp thinking of Lind in the 3 spot, as opposed to moving him to the fourth spot with Lind prior to the media. I think both of those issues are manufactured outrage given importance because it fits a pre-determined judgement of what Gaston is, as opposed to actually being valid issues.
In the broader spectrum of how Gaston is communicating with the other players, I don’t know enough to have an opinion about it, and I’d say neither does anyone else not at the camp.
Im not saying it is his fault, but he will be blamed like it is.
Its your typical pile on situation with the media. But They set them self’s up for it by announcing Cito’s retirement tour, when he should have been turfed in the off season. So when things like this happen he’s going to get all the blame and rightfully so.
If Hill is struggling in may then I would blame Cito for not moving him to the third spot. I think alot of Hill’s success was because scoots was always in front of him getting on base. Batting Hill in the second spot (behind Joba) pretty much means he’s our leadoff hitter. As Joba will never come close to the numbers scoots had last year.
But Cito has already said that Hill will bat 2nd…that’s the frustration with cito
See, I’m all for real criticism, and there is plenty to criticize Cito for. But I can’t support the ‘screw it, he’s leaving anyway so who cares if it’s valid or not?’ idea. And if Hill starts struggling in the two spot because Bautista is constantly getting out and opposing pitching can focus on Hill, then it’s a totally valid argument to make.
But remember back in the Ricciardi days, it became no matter what, either JP was stupid/wrong/evil or success happened in spite of his best efforts to sabotage it. So it stopped being actual discussions and arguments about the merits or flaws of specific things, and degenerated into ‘JP sucks’ rants in a lot of places, focused on the smallest things for justification for a rant. I’m not saying this is happening at that level with Cito yet, but the signs are out there that it could.
I sort of agree
I’m down for more discussion as the baseball IQ here is pretty high and people do usually make valid points to arguments, But JP deserved everything he got, 10 years of losing will do that.
Now even with out looking at the team yet Cito already has a line up and its just like last years but with crappier players Joba, Hill, Lind, Wells, Overbay, EE, Snider, Buck and Gonzo. Not even taking into account that Wallace has a great chance of making the team. How can you be respected as a coach when he uses this type of thinking?
Cito lost his respect as a good coach so why sugar coat things? Im tired of this franchise telling us things are ok when we all know they are not. Cito is our number one problem. His coaching style does not fit. Plus on the flip side he’s making some good money to wreck all our young arms. So just like JP he deserves everything he’s got coming to him. Even if people have a reason or not. It’s not unfair…criticism (unfounded or not) comes with the job. Anyways He’s got two world series rings to plug his ears if he feels disrespected.
But JP deserved everything he got, 10 years of losing will do that.
I don’t think I agree with that. Did he deserve a lot of the criticism? Yeah, he did. Did he deserve to lose his job? I think so. But I do think that you have to acknowledge the good too. He drafted well, he had a great rapport with certain players, including Halladay, and kept them here. He had a fabulous eye for pitching, especially in the bullpen. And I think when you disregard all of that, it really makes the argument much weaker; less crediable. It’s more that you’re arguing just because you hate JP, so the issue is just an excuse to further your point and really doesn’t matter.
That’s my thing. This place has a fabulous baseball IQ, and there are some posts and responses that make my shake my head in awe with how deft and insightful they are, and how much more they know about parts of the game that after three decades as a dedicated fan and player I never even considered. Like I said, there’s plenty to criticize Cito for and indepth that adding on the type of issues that have been Griffin’s stock and trade for years isn’t necessary.
while I don't think the Jays not winning was J.P.'s "fault"
and while I certainly agree that he did many things well, there is something to be said for giving someone else a chance. It appeared to me that in the last few years, Jays ownership voted with their wallets that they preferred to build for the future rather than spend for a winner.
While I might have disagreed with their course of action at the time, it’s their team. Ricciardi seemed unwilling to commit to rebuild, and the team clearly wasn’t going to give him more money to spend to try to compete in the near term. It takes a certain personality to tear down what you have built to start over in hopes that it will exceed what you put together in the first place, and J.P. didn’t have that personality.
With regard to Cito, I think both you and Tom have valid points. While it’s hard to put too much stock in Griffin, who we know cannot resist allowing narrative bias to colour his judgment (though I admit he has a certain flair for the written word), if I were a player like Lind, I wouldn’t want to find out where I was batting in the order by reading it in the media before I even got the chance to hear it from Cito, even if it was to make me more comfortable. And there’s something to be said for a team (though it doesn’t have to be the manager) going the extra mile to make the new guy feel valued and welcome, particularly when the Jays are going to be counting on him (seemingly) as a rotation mainstay, a job he hasn’t really had before. If that didn’t happen with Morrow, Cito as manager has to be accountable and has to try to rectify that – not because I expect it to exert some huge influence on Morrow’s performance but just because it is a good idea.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I think Anthopoulos is a much better fit for the Jays, and one of his best qualities is that he appeared to learn from Ricciardi’s mistakes, something that the former GM didn’t seem to do well. The thing though, that I took away from the Ricciardi era was the reflexive fan outrage against everything he did, which I never liked or agreed with. Doesn’t mean I want him back, but I think that part of being a good fan of a team is to get past those reflexive issues and find substantive arguments to base issues on.
The thing with the Lind quote is that every year, you get coaches and managers musing about what they might do, who might be in the rotation, and none of it really means anything at this point. It would be different if it was going into opening day or during the season, but right now, it’s just the rough idea and I don’t see it being a fair criticism, unless you think Gaston shouldn’t be speculating anything to the media without talking to the players.
You’re right that ultimately Cito owns responsibility for if Morrow and the rest of the team feel welcome and part of it. But Griffin’s mock outrage for Morrow I think comes far far too early. Yeah, he spent a week with Walton and it would have been nice if Gaston had dropped by, but I can also respect if someone says ‘job starts today for everyone’ and deciding to leave the players and coaches who report early to their own devices.
Ugh, the worst part is because of all the overreaction (as I see it) posts, I feel like I’m becoming some kind of Cito apologist, and I wanted Eric Wedge in as manager in 2010.
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