2010 Zips Projections for Jays
Hi everyone. We're still facing some serious snow issues, with another 10-20 inches of snow apparently on the way today. I'm enjoying the snow, but thinking about baseball does remind me that spring is just around the corner.
Baseball Think Factory's Dan Szymborski has been running through mlb teams in reverse alphabetical order, so the Blue Jays are one of the last teams, and not one of the prettier ones, in his annual ZIPS projections, which he prefaces by saying:
In my opinion, you're looking at the 5th-place team in the AL East. There's just not enough upside, at least in 2010, in the offense and while the team has legitimate players at every position, that's not enough in this division. The rotation already had serious issues before losing Roy Halladay, with essentially every other 2006-2008 starter being injured and the loss of Doc really blows a short-term hole in the pitching staff. After the injury crew, there are simply questions marks of another kind, from Ricky Romero having serious problems in the Eastern League just a year ago and Marc Rzepczynski's control issues.
The Anthopoulos regime is going to have problems if they try to do any quick fixes. The team can contend, but it's going to need a long-term plan.
Here are some of the, ahem, highlights (to see the full stats you will have to view the post in expanded view by clicking through to comments or, better yet, just going to BTF):
Name AVG OBP SLG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K OPS+
Adam Lind* .277 .339 .488 152 582 84 161 38 2 27 102 53 119 117
Aaron Hill .275 .323 .447 131 528 72 145 32 1 19 73 36 82 103
Lyle Overbay* .251 .339 .416 130 442 56 111 29 1 14 57 59 95 100
Travis Snider* .231 .322 .434 128 429 56 99 22 1 21 60 55 144 99
Vernon Wells .260 .314 .430 128 507 70 132 29 3 17 69 40 73 96
Jarrett Hoffpauir .264 .331 .394 128 436 56 115 26 2 9 55 42 50 93
Edwin Encarnacion .233 .317 .397 132 464 68 108 23 1 17 72 50 103 89
Jose Bautista .227 .324 .389 129 414 68 94 21 2 14 60 56 109 89
Randy Ruiz .239 .301 .414 131 502 64 120 27 2 19 73 37 146 88
Brett Wallace* .246 .314 .385 134 525 75 129 23 1 16 63 38 135 85
Jeremy Reed* .274 .320 .386 139 368 53 101 19 2 6 43 24 51 84
Joey Gathright* .258 .327 .302 120 368 50 95 9 2 1 24 32 62 70
Kyle Phillips* .244 .297 .338 95 352 30 86 15 0 6 35 25 73 69
Brian Dopirak .227 .275 .371 127 498 48 113 25 1 15 63 32 147 70
Sea Bass Gonzalez .231 .277 .354 107 376 39 87 17 1 9 39 21 79 67
Raul Chavez .246 .285 .338 61 195 19 48 9 0 3 22 9 31 66
J.P. Arencibia .222 .258 .370 116 465 48 103 25 1 14 58 20 133 65
John McDonald .232 .271 .323 85 198 22 46 10 1 2 18 9 29 58
Ouch. Travis Snider already more or less had that season in 2009, so I have to think he'll be able to do a little bit better in 2010 than ZIPS does, though he'll absolutely have to improve on his K rates. I also think ZIPS is a little pessimistic on Lind, who put up much better numbers than that last year (I don't see him dropping 40 points of OBP) where he essentially put up superstar numbers at 25. FWIW, the 3 projections systems available on Fangraphs all like Lind better, though Marcel's is close. ZIPS has never really liked Aaron Hill much but now at least it respects his power somewhat. I think it's fair to say they're still selling him a bit short, though. Finally, I think a healthy Vernon Wells may overperform his projection, and perhaps the same can be said of Encarnacion - though when wrist surgery in the offseason is cause for optimism, that's pretty sad. If Encarnacion doesn't improve, there is absolutely no reason he should be seeing starting time in the major leagues, given his poor defense. Hoffpair would be better there if the projections are accurate, accounting for defense.
On the other hand, ZIPS thinks that our minor league bats aren't quite ready for the big time and SS is looking hideous.
And when Overbay has been healthy, he's always been a better-than-average bat, so unless he regresses big time, he could be better than this too.
Pitching numbers are after the break:
Name Age ERA W-L G GS INN H ER HR BB K ERA+
Shaun Marcum 28 4.18 6-5 18 18 97.0 93 45 14 31 76 104
Dustin McGowan 28 4.29 7-6 17 17 100.2 101 48 10 38 81 101
Jesse Litsch 25 4.67 9-10 24 23 135.0 148 70 18 40 75 93
Marc Rzepczynski* 24 4.69 9-10 27 27 136.1 140 71 11 81 119 93
Ricky Romero* 25 5.08 10-14 33 33 196.2 219 111 25 93 155 86
Kyle Drabek 22 5.21 4-5 16 15 86.1 93 50 11 42 63 82
Brett Cecil* 23 5.28 7-10 29 29 138.0 157 81 18 61 100 82
David Purcey* 28 5.29 7-10 27 27 148.0 160 87 17 82 113 82
Scott Richmond 30 5.30 8-11 27 24 137.2 146 81 24 59 117 82
Brad Mills* 25 5.34 5-7 18 17 87.2 96 52 11 47 67 82
Shawn Hill 29 5.35 2-2 7 7 37.0 45 22 4 12 23 80
Dana Eveland* 26 5.49 6-10 30 26 144.1 166 88 17 73 96 79
Robert Ray 26 5.63 4-6 16 16 78.1 96 49 10 32 45 77
Scott Downs* 34 3.58 2-2 61 0 55.1 52 22 5 21 49 122
Jason Frasor 32 3.76 4-3 55 0 52.2 46 22 5 22 51 116
Brian Tallet* 32 4.17 3-3 64 0 73.1 71 34 7 34 63 104
Jeremy Accardo 28 4.22 2-2 50 0 49.0 49 23 5 21 37 103
Zachary Stewart 23 4.24 3-3 32 9 76.1 77 36 7 33 60 103
Shawn Camp 34 4.26 3-3 54 0 61.1 62 29 6 22 49 102
Jesse Carlson* 29 4.41 4-4 72 0 67.1 68 33 8 23 56 99
Kevin Gregg 32 4.50 5-6 73 0 70.0 66 35 9 35 66 95
Josh Roenicke 27 4.63 2-2 43 0 44.2 45 23 5 24 41 94
Casey Janssen 28 4.73 2-3 42 4 59.0 66 31 6 21 36 92
Tim Collins* 20 4.90 6-7 47 0 68.0 64 37 8 47 68 89
On the pitching side, things look decent only if Shaun Marcum and Dustin McGowan are able to return from injury and make a significant number of starts. With McGowan that's obviously still very much up in the air. Zepper is right about where I'd expect, though I think both Romero and Cecil could overperform their projections somewhat (I think ZIPS is heavily penalizing Romero for poor numbers in the minors before he joined the bigs). Litsch could help for a half-season as well, if he's able to return that quickly. An ace would really make this group look better. Dana Eveland certainly isn't projected to be much help.
In the bullpen, you've got a good group who are not really helped in the slightest by the addition of Kevin Gregg, thinks ZIPS. I'm trying to figure out why anyone is going to part with a decent prospect for Gregg or surrender a draft pick for him at the end of the season. Downs or Frasor I could see either happening for, but not Gregg - so we might as well give those late innings to Downs and Frasor to make them more attractive to the rest of the league. Farquar and Collins look like they're both a year off, but Collins could be a good lefty reliever to step in when Downs leaves, and Farquar could be a setup guy or perhaps even closer in 2011. ZIPS thinks Zach Stewart is ready now, but for the bullpen, where we want him to start, and that Drabek is pretty close to being ready to help, but not quite there. It is pretty telling that the three best starters threw 9 innings, total, last season.
Here's the projection for Brandon Morrow, back when the trade went down:
Morrow G: 50 Starts: 12 Inn: 101.2 Hits: 92 HR: 12 BB: 64 K: 98 ERA: 4.51 ERA+: 94
That's actually not too bad, but I'd want to see what he'd do with more than 12 starts.
One important final thing to remember - in past seasons the Jays have had a lot of success finding unheralded arms to put up decent seasons. We should not underestimate how much of that was the team's excellent defense, which has really suffered in losing Scott Rolen, Marco Scutaro (A-Gon should be fine but nothing special at short), and Alex Rios, and perhaps Lyle Overbay as well, by the time the season is underway. If Overbay leaves, Aaron Hill could be the Jays' only above-average defender in 2010. And that will hurt the pitching.
If ZIPS is right, it could be a loooooong season for the Jays, but I think they'll be a little better than this. Two of their best position players and their best pitcher from last season are gone, though, without replacements (in 2010) barring completely unexpected breakout, though.
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Comments
Tim Collins
Will NOT be in the bigs this year unless the team bus crashes and they need to field a team from players in the minors. He had control issues in AA and is not yet a pitcher that can be counted on in the clutch at all.
Newlywed Danny Farquahr has a much better chance and will at least start the season in Vegas (or at least be there by May). Collins will be in NH to start the year especially since Tom Signore is the pitching coach there and he is great at helping young guys. He was one of the only coaches in the jays minors not canned by AA and for good reason. Collins won’t make Vegas before the ASB but he could get sent up around then. But not to Toronto this year. He’ll have to lower his walks and WIP a lot this year. Great kid though, one of the most genuine you will ever meet.
by NHfishercatsfan on Feb 9, 2010 9:40 AM EST via mobile reply actions
the point isn't to predict they will be in the majors, though
just what they would do if they were
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
hmm
I don’t think I understand. So would he possibly predict over 162 games started? Its hard to read on my mobile phone, its all kinda squished. I saw him predicting Collins in 40 or so games I think so does that mean he thinks he will do that or that if he got a callup he’d do that? Then again I don’t even know what or who CHONE is lol.
by NHfishercatsfan on Feb 9, 2010 9:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
right
there are more plate appearances, starts, and games pitched than a team has room for in one season. factoring in time missed to injury in a very simplistic way, based on past time missed to injury only, the purpose is to project what each player would do in the majors, assuming they got a chance to play there. no one thinks Collins will make 40 appearances for the Jays this season.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
understood
But why collins? Rey Gonzalez is more developed and is at least on the 40 man roster and in Vegas but not on the predictions that I can see. Plus id put D-Farq on there way before I put Tiny Tim.
by NHfishercatsfan on Feb 9, 2010 10:03 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Farquar and Gonzalez
had projections, too, I just didn’t put them all in my post. Feel free to go to BTF and see all the projections
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I do have to send my apologies in advance! One thing not fun about projections is being the bearer of bad news. Well, except the Royals, because I love ragging on Dayton Moore.
--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com
congratulations
on predicting mass regression to the mean….not too difficult. I imagine your success over large sample sizes is quite gratifying.
of course, i’m still a big fan of your work
sigh of dispair
not sure i saw this
But what does an asterisk next to a players name mean?
by NHfishercatsfan on Feb 9, 2010 10:04 AM EST via mobile reply actions
hmm
I dont get the pessimism i keep seeing from all the various projections. I dont think Hill is gonna hit 36 HRs again, but he should still be in the mid-20’s if healthy. Most projections have him in the 17-19 range.
I think Lind is .300 hitter, nobody has him doing that either.
keep in mind
Lind and Hill demolished their ZIPS prpojections (really, all the projection systems but ZIPS the most of all) last season. ZIPS was always very pessimistic on Hill, based on pedestrian minor-league numbers, even after he (in my opinion) showed he was for real when he came up as a 22-year old and held his own filling in for an injured Glaus (or was it Koskie?).
Hill did have a few holes in his approach last year, but I don’t see Lind losing the on-base skills he showed last season.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Feb 9, 2010 12:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
hmmmm
So by the pitchers projections, the Jays are going to go 120-144 this year?….and thoes don’t include Morrows numbers.
Did I miss something?
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Feb 9, 2010 12:14 PM EST reply actions
yep
My discussion with fishercatsfan above. ZIPS isn’t trying to project how much playing time each player will get relative to his teammates – it projects performance independent of that. That’s what makes it useful as an objective evaluative tool. It does project playing time in a simplistic manner by taking into account past playing time lost to injury, but not in a way that attempts to account for relative playing time.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Feb 9, 2010 12:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I definitely didn't say that
if anything, I am one of the more pessimistic (I’d say realistic, but whatever) folks on this site. However, some of the players will almost certainly outperform their projections (as some did last season) so it’s certainly worth talking about who those might be.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Im realistic!
PLAYOFFS!!!1 GOLD GOLVES!!!1 SILVER SLUGGERS!!!1
PENNANT!!!1
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Seems a balanced prediction...
I mean you didn’t say World Series winner…..we’ll save that for next year.
We picked up Hoffpauir off waivers from the Cardinals just after the end of the season.
He played 2nd and SS in the Cardinal system, hit .291/.357/.486 last year at Triple-A Memphis. He got into a handful of major league games last year.
more than a grain, I'd say
the projections are just interesting to look at
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Marcum, Eveland, Wells and Litsch
That’s very little innings for Marcum and that’s way too much for Litsch. Flip the two. Also, .235 for Snider is too low. No hitter on the Jays team hitting around or above .300 is about right. Eveland pitches 140 innings? Really?
And I hope Wells really doesn’t put up those stats. Especially when Jeremy Reed is actually putting up better numbers than him with less opportunities.
again
no one is predicting relative playing time. The system just spits out a number of plate appearances or pitching appearances based on time missed to injury. that’s the whole point.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Ehhh
As far as projection goes, ZIPs is pretty good, you just have to understand the general logic behind this, it is by no means a gospel on EXACTLY what will happen, but just a general overview of how the #s stack up against each other. it can not forcast things that are completely out of context. which obviously happenes from time to time .
Almost all these forcast suggest that the Jays are going to be in for a rough season this year. and really, you don’t need a forcast machine to tell you that. not only are they missing Doc and Scutaro, but Hill is unlikely to repeat his HR performane from last year. Wells seems unlikely to bounce back . and the roster generally lack upside. maybe Travis Snider can improve some and maybe Brett Wallace do something, but the chances of it being enough to keep them out of the bottom seems highly unlikely. the O’s are loaded with upsides and the Royals play in a far less competitive division.
I think that's about right
but it’s interesting to think about where the projections might be off and why. In the Jays context, it’s downright depressing to think that any of these projections are too rosy, so I focused on where the projection might be selling certain Jays a bit short. For one example, you yourself said that “maybe Travis Snider can improve some,” with which I agree, and noted that if he does improve in any significant way he’ll outpace the projection. Hill, for example, doesn’t have to come anywhere close to his HR production from last year to knock his projection out of the water.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
i agree with your assessment of ZiPS
but the roster is loaded with upside.
Wells had a career worst year, so there’s some upside there.
Snider is loaded with upside.
Hill, has some room for upside because, homeruns aside, his offensive and defensive numbers were not overwhelming last year.
Encarnacion had a well below career norms year (possibly due to injury recovery) and is in his prime, so there’s upside there.
And how the pitching staff can’t be loaded with upside over the 5+ ERA predictions is beyond me.
The only guy coming off a career year is Lind. So I’m fine with some regression there, but then, he’s only 26 – has he peaked?

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