Quick Recap: Spring Game 7, Jays and Phillies
by Tom Dakers on Mar 10, 2010 5:02 PM EST
in Toronto Blue Jays Game Recaps
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PrintCouldn't expect them to score bunches of runs every game. There were some good things today though.
Pitching:
- Kyle Drabek pitched 2 good innings, gave up 1 hit and 1 walk.
- Jason Frasor gave up a hit and struck out 1 in his inning.
- Kevin Gregg didn't do so well, he gave up 3 hits, 2 hard hit doubles that hit the wall, walked one, only 1 earned run though. Even though I didn't like the signing I'm not going to give up on him after only 2 innings pitched in the spring but he isn't filling us with confidence.
- Scott Downs gave up 1 hit in his inning of work.
- Lance Broadway allowed 2 runs, off 2 hits and a walk in 2 innings.
- David Purcey pitched 2 innings, gave up a home run, a walk, had 2 strikeouts adding up to 1 run. He, like Broadway would have had to be lights out all spring to have a chance to make the team.
Offense:
- Jose Bautista had another great game, a homer and a double to be 2 for 3. .643 is his spring batting average.
- Aaron Hill was 0 for 2 with another walk. I don't know whether he is trying to walk more or if pitchers are pitching him more careful after his big year last year, but it's good to see.
- Adam Lind 1 for 3, a double.
- Randy Ruiz 1 for 1, hitting .643 this spring. As we were talking about in the game thread, Cito said Overbay would play everyday but you gotta think that Ruiz has to platoon with him. Lyle doesn't hit lefties at all anymore.
- Vernon Wells was 0 for 3 bringing his spring average down to .462.
- Mike McCoy played some CF and was 0 for 1. If he plays the outfield too, you'd have to think he is a favorite for a utility role.
- Overbay, 0 for 2 with an RBI and a walk, dropping his average to .444 for the spring.
- Jeremy Reed 1 for 2, .429.
- John Buck, 0 for 2 with a strikeout. .200 so far.
- JP Arencibia was also 0 for 2 but one of the outs was caught right at the fence, very close to another home run on the spring.
- Alex Gonzalez, 0 for 1 and a walk..200
- John McDonald, 0 for 2. .250
- Travis Snider was 1 for 3, no strikeouts today. He made a number of good plays in the field and had an assist. .188.
Jordan Bastian has a couple of quotes from Cito on twitter:
Cito on rotation: "We've kind of got our mind on who's going to be in that rotation right now." Didn't name the five he referred to.
Nothing like having open competition during spring.
Cito on Cecil: "He is behind because he's missing time by having a thumb that's cut and bothering him. Its not something that's good at all"
Tomorrow the Jays play the Rays.
The Jays sent Adam Loewen and Brian Jeroloman their Minor League camp and optioned Luis Perez and Robert Ray to Triple-A. I figured Ray would get a couple more looks. I think that brings us down to 29 pitchers in the major league camp. Can't imagine how they all are going to get innings.
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For frig sakes Cito. You don’t say stuff like that with so many people competing for spots.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
who exactly is really competition for a rotation spot? I mean, if Cecil was healthy maybe him. Guys like Purcey, Eveland and Mills were extreme long shots.
How can you even have a competition when you already have the rotation set in feb?
How do you know Mills wouldn’t make the team if you never give him a chance? Hell Mills almost made the club last year. Why wouldn’t he be AT LEAST considered this year?
“How can you even have a competition when you already have the rotation set in feb?”
It’s not Feb. And I take that as Brad Mills is your only answer. So Cito basically has 6 guys vying for 5 spots and says: “We’ve kind of got our mind on who’s going to be in that rotation right now.” …. um .. oooh?
Cecil has a cut on his thumb and has until April 5th to sort it out. That is almost a full 4 weeks.
The guy isn’t having surgery.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
he's not a month behind.....he cut his finger last week...
missed a week, where is the month behind some from?
How is he a month behind. He the cut recently which set him back from his start. That doesn’t mean he was set back a month.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Even though he pitched today he didn’t use his curveball at all. So he has to heal, then start throwing his curveball. Yes, that’s a BIG setback in ST.
Ok, I agree that if the season started tomorrow the rotation is set.
All I am saying is that because the season doesn’t start for another month, maybe a more flexible mind and approach should be taken.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Read his comment again:
“We’ve kind of got our mind on who’s going to be in that rotation right now.”
Kind of. As in, mostly. Or pretty much but not completely. Or, I know who the guys are, and have a good idea who is gonna be there but it’s not April yet. Kind of.
We argue what to infer by Cito’s or AA’s or even JP’s comments until we are blue in the face. No one really knows what they mean except them. Especially since they will always leave gray area.
But should a manager come out and say that? Especially since the GM has brought in other pitchers to have competition in spring training?
Can you really say that Tallet deserves a spot in the rotation over Mills or Cecil or even Eveland at this point. Maybe you could make the case for Eveland being out of the running. Then again of course there is still 4 weeks until the season starts and Tallet could continue to pitch like he did in his first ministart and do horribly.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
“We argue what to infer by Cito’s or AA’s or even JP’s comments until we are blue in the face. "
But that’s the whole point. People are always inferring whatever they want when you shouldn’t be. Period.
As to the other argument (Tallet v the group), that’s a perfectly reasonable discussion to have but wasn’t really the point. If you want to have it, sure … what I think is this:
- if Tallet makes the team it’s not big deal to me b/c that roster spot is likely McGowan’s or Cecil’s before long, so I don’t mind having the veteran hold it until the kid jumps up and takes it (and again, he’s hurt right now) or the injured player comes back. Is giving it to say Eveland a big deal? No … but it’s not big deal if you give it to Tallet either, b/c as I said it’s a placeholder in a rebuilding year. It’s really not a big deal who holds that spot from day 1 as long as the important factors are met:
1) Romero, Zep and Morrow have spots
2) Cecil, Stewart, Drabek are starting every day somewhere
Everything besides that, to be honest, IMO is not a big deal.
And to further this, this is basically how I feel on most of the team. I’m worried more about what is best for the team long term,and I think people are blowing extremely minor decisions way out of proportion. Even if, by some extreme example, Jose Molina starter over John Buck. IMO, John Buck is better than Jose Molina overall. But do I really care which one starters? Meh … not really. B/c I’m more focused on the rebuild than wins-losses.
Have you really had an argument over Buck vs Molina? That is most the ridiculous thing I have heard today.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Well I agree with idea that Buck vs Molina is a horrible argument, But most of the arguments I have seen revolve mostly around Ruiz, Snider and Overbay playing time and trying to keep Bautista to a bench player.
I wouldn’t exactly cause that crazy.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
1) Romero, Zep and Morrow have spots
2) Cecil, Stewart, Drabek are starting every day somewhere
Ok I agree with that.
As for Cito’s comment, I said he shouldn’t say something like that. That’s it. It gives the wrong impression that things are more a less set, And considering that I am sure the Jays have PR guys and they know the general perception of how Cito is viewed in the media… you would think someone would have coached him on that sort of thing.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
“It gives the wrong impression that things are more a less set…”
Okay, but here’s my question. Shouldn’t things be more or less set? If you think Romero, Zep and Morrow should have spots and presumably Marcum too … what’s your definition of more or less set?
Ok thats a fair argument and I see your point, but ideally what I would have expected would have been something more along the lines.
“We have an idea, but we still expect a battle for the last few spots in the rotation”
Something like that is what I expect to see out of the manager, It gives your players the feeling that they are still playing for something.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
He did throw his curve because of the cut...
he was throwing it before the cut. He lost almost a week. Lots of guys don’t throw all their pitchers their first ST game.
he didn't throw any sliders either
and that’s his best pitch
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
It was set in February....
Mills pitched well in his one appearance, Tallet pitched poorly. I wouldn’t pick one yet, I don’t why Cito would. They told Eveland that he would get to compete for a spot, he gets one game and told he loses out.
People read WAY too much in to anything Cito says. We kind of have an idea who is out rotation … OMG OMG OMG he decided the rotation in Septemeber, before we had Brandon Morrow!!!!!!!!! If he says he doesn’t know, people would say OMG OMG OMG, Cito probably doesn’t even know who the pitchers are.
I'm sorry....
but being a baseball blog we will comment on what the manager says. Sort of part of the job around here.
Where did I say not to comment on anything? There’s a big different between commenting and drawing conclusions. It’s one thing to say: Cito said X and I think Y, and quite different to say Cito said X, he MEANS Y, and that’s ridiculous b/c … there’s a difference between opinion and conjecture.
I've been trying to pull myself off the argue for argue shake thing on here.
we’ve argued, that there isn’t anyone good enough to compete for a starting role. That Cecil is a month behind because he missed a few days. That we shouldn’t care what Cito says. and now that we don’t understand what he’s saying. Time to walk away from it.
That’s fine. You are suggesting to walk away, but you don’t walk away by posting “uh huh”. You walk away by walking away. So please don’t pretend like you’re trying to take the high ground that way.
And why the hyperbole? It’s VERY frustrating when you cannot argue with a counter point but instead use sarcasm and hyperbole … much like this post I’m quoting. Instead of saying I disagree b/c … you just exaggerate what I’m saying and try to make my point LOOK like something it isn’t. Kudos for that. Once again, very good job of trying not to start an argument. (See, now I’m being sarcastic … at least I’m admitting it).
And now I’ll walk away. Not with a smart “you know what” comment, or by preaching. But by actually walking away.
It isn’t like the season starts tomorrow. We are what? A week and a half into Spring Training. The prospective rotation has had 1 maybe 2 2inning starts.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
You didn’t answer my question. Who are these mythical players that should be competing for rotation spots. With Richmond down, McGowan and Litsch not ready, and now Cecil lagging behind … the rotation is kind of set b/c those are the guys we have. I don’t think Cito slammed the door shut with his comment, but it’s not like the Jays have a bunch of viable options throwing in ST. We have a bunch of kids, a bunch of injured guys, and some fringe major leaguers.
And that is to take nothing away from Tallet who did a good job in his own right. But as the season wore on it become plain to see that he started to wear down and he didn’t have the same stuff as some of the other starters.
Ideally I see him as more a long man out of the pen who could spot start if necessary due to injuries or something. Kinda like how Downs was for us a few years ago.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
here's the thing about this
It’s not bad that the Jays already know how the rotation is going to shape up. Actually, I think that’s a good thing. I’d much rather that my team base it on the totality of the evidence and not leave it to the random fluctuation of a few innings pitched in meaningless games in Florida in february against a mix of minor- and major-league talent.
The thing is saying it out loud, now. When camp started, Cito was telling everyone who would listen how “it’s wide open” (I’m paraphrasing but you get the idea) and everyone has a chance. Now, a week into games, they’ve made up their mind? It’s internally inconsistent and it’s ridiculous.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
in March, that is
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I’d agree that changing a stance quickly isn’t a good thing, though I would think this is more evidence of Cito not handling the media well than his management style.
Also, I think Cecil’s current status and Richmond’s injury probably went a long way to Cito deciding how “wide open” the rotation battle was. I don’t know about you, but the way I thought about it they were probably the 2 best candidates not in the rotation right now for spots in the rotation, with Mills and Purcey being the long shots. But now, things are different. Not so much based on 1 or 2 innings, but more based on readiness and injury concerns.
My point is that the whole thing sends mixed messages
you tell the world that the competition is wide open and everyone has a chance. Then, 3 innings later you’ve made up your mind. That’s not how you run an organization and it’s not fair to the players who can’t possibly know what to think at this point. Again, I actually like the idea that they went into the spring knowing who the rotation was most likely going to be.
I don’t hate Cito, but I do think that this was a dumb thing for him to say after he started camp saying that the rotation was “wide open.” Are we really to believe that he made up his mind over the past week? That makes no sense, so obviously he wasn’t being truthful in the first instance. I agree with you that this probably has more to do with media skills than anything else, but like it or not, but that’s part of the job too. What the manager says to the media matters, and dealing with the media takes discipline.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I never said that media relations wasn’t a part of management, nor that Cito was good at it. What I said/think is:
- people are reading too much into this statement if they think things are a 100% lock (which was the basis of this thread)
- as going back to the beginning, JohnnyG said he shouldn’t say that with “so many people competing for spots”, and I disagree that there is many people competing for spots now that Richmond is down, McGowan isn’t ready, and Cecil is set back (to be honest, I’d start him in AAA unless he had an absolute blowout spring anyway but that’s not for this thread I guess)
That’s what this thread was really about. Now you’re taking it in a bit of another direction (that he should have kind of been saying this all along), and that’s another issue and not one that I necessarily disagree with, hence my original response to JohnnyG asking who exactly all these pitchers competing for spots are.
So far, nobody has really made any argument other than Tallet v Eveland v Mills for the #5, and to be honest I don’t see anything in what Cito says to preclude Eveland or Mills for sneaking up and stealing the spot. Is it likely? No. And as I’ve consistently said re: these guys, I don’t think it’s a huge deal b/c I’d be stunned to see any of them in the rotation come June.
It is a fact that
Without Richmond, Cecil, and, presumably McGowan in the race for the rotation, there really isn’t a race at all. Tallet can be the 5th starter to start the season, and when there is a better option, he can move over. When Cito said the “race is wide open”, Cecil and Richmond were in the picture. Without them, I think it is fair for Cito to say “we have a pretty good idea” or whatever, because they now, clearly, DO have a good idea of who will be in the rotation.
And besides, saying “we are pretty sure” doesn’t guarantee Tallet a spot at all. For all we know, he could have been referring to Eveland or somebody else, but the media stories that keep mentioning Tallet as a front-runner have everybody’s panties in a bunch. I just hope McGowan emerges at 100% so this “race” is resolved without bloodshed.
I think that's all basically true
and I don’t really think it matters all that much, but I still think that after what had been said before, the smarter and more disciplined thing to do was to let the spring play out before making this type of comment.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
that's the point to me....
we know Eveland was told he would get a shot at making the rotation. He pitches two good innings and then we are told he has no chance. Why the change? Why pretend it is a competition and after each one pitches once, say the competition is closed? Two bad innings for Tallet wins him a spot.
Again Tom … he never said the competition is “closed”. He said he kind of knows. It’s quite possible that to Cito, it was wide open when Richmond wasn’t known to be injured, Cecil was fine and Marcum was still an unknown (health wise). But maybe now he’s got a firm grip on 4, and the last one just has a front runner. Maybe he’s decided on that #5. But to me, “kind of” doesn’t equate to an absolute. “Kind of” means there’s still uncertainty. I don’t think for a second that Tallet isn’t the front runner for that #5 spot. But I still don’t read so much into it as everyone else. To me, kind of means kind of.
Its official!
zep, marcum, romero, morrow and Tallet are in the rotation.
Nice, thats what I was going to post. It seems its Cito has already made up his mind. Why not I guess since they have pitched the best …ish. I want Marcum to be #1, then Ricky, (Zep + Morrow 3/4) with Tallet #5. Looks pretty good, who said this was going to be a down year?
I really love watching young pitchers pitch their first few games. I remember the first game Litsch pitched I went into what is now our nursery and sat watching him pitch on a tiny little 12 inch tv and was glued to the screen. He did such a great job.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Overbay
If Overbay plays every day maybe that means vs LH we’ll see Lind in LF, Ruiz at DH and Snider on the bench … if he’s not in AAA. Can’t say I’m a fan of that configuration. Though if Snider is in AAA even I would say I’d rather see Lind in LF everyday, and I don’t think there is anyone around here who likes that idea less than I do.
As Ahmed says...
I can live with those five – with Cecil, Drabek and then Stewart all waiting for anyone to falter.
Today’s “Point to Ponder” brought to you by the makers of Toyota accelerators, "Once they’re on – they’re freakin’ on! Don’t like it – buy a freakin’ Honda!:
EE’s wrist. I don’t like it. No wrist – no hit – period. I don’t want that guy playing UNLESS he PROVES his wrist is OK and he can hit. I’m happy with Bautista at 3rd, Lind a LF, Snider at RF and Ruiz as DH. IN FACT – I’m more happy with that than EE playing anywhere except Las Vegas.
Bautista
So…. Is it Blue Jay magic, or has Bautista learned to hit? I’m leaning toward Blue Jay magic #1 spot. Happened to Marco last year, now Bautista. But if he keeps this spring up, then maybe he has learned to hit…
Ill be the first to cheer, but Im not holding my breathe after a handful of atbats during Spring Training.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Hah, Alright Im in.
Come on Career year!
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Snider
He defientely needs to pick up the BA. .188 isn’t cutting it, too bad he’s not having a great start instead of Bautista cuz he sure needs the confidence. I sure wouldn’t be confident with a BA like that.
First Time Commenting.
just a generic post. First time posting and this is a nice forum. No refreshing needed. I likee.
Who is Buck replacing in the commentator booth?
Fletch, Campbell, etc.
Plz say Rod omg shut up Black
Buck is the new play by play which means Campbell is gone.
I am going to assume Fletch, Rance and Tabler are back as colour guys.
Rod Black I assume still has the duties on TSN unless they have changed.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
that sucks Jamie was my favorite, its Chuck → Matt omg shut up Devlin all over again :(
Not saying Buck is going to be bad like Devlin but still having to listen to Rod is annoying.
Hm I never hated Jamie as much as most did around the Jays Blogosphere but he did seem out of his element most of the time.
More times then I can count he seemed to get too excited for just a fly ball that dropped harmlessly into an outfielders glove. And He didn’t really seem to have the experience or control over the telecast to rein in same of the rants that Fletcher, Rance and Tabler get one.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
I thought he was getting better...
he still acted like he had never seen a baseball game ever before in his life
Jamie Campbell was like a fish out of water commenting on the Jays games. His questions just made me want to scream at my T.V. (I did, many times too).
Then there is the topic of him and his habit of wishing really really old people happy birthdays.
It just didnt fit the broadcast.
by Jesse Taylor on Mar 10, 2010 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
Plus his voice went high pitched sometimes. I had a few grinch worthy moments with him calling the games.
Never hated him but I think he just wasn’t a good story teller. See when the jays are stinky this year Buck can just tell us stories when the team was good. Make us feel all warm and snugly inside.
I thought that there was a terrorist attack in skydome when Aaron Hill stole home a couple years ago. Jamie almost broke glass with that call.
by Jesse Taylor on Mar 10, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
I will say though, I enjoyed him during the olympics.
His training days with the jays helped him be one of the better broadcasters during the olympics.
by Jesse Taylor on Mar 10, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
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