Jays Lose to Rangers in the Ninth.
by Tom Dakers on Apr 5, 2010 5:25 PM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays Game Recaps
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There were lots of good things about today's game, just try to overlook the 9th.
Shaun Marcum had a no hitter going into the 7th. He ended up going 7, giving up just 2 hits, 1 walk, with 6 K, but there was that wind blown 3 run homer to tie the game. That hurt, but the Jays got another run in the top of the 8th to give Marcum a shot at the win.
Vernon Wells had a great day too, a 2 run homer in the first and then a single in the 8th to get us another lead. 3 for 4 on the day. Hopefully that will slow down the boos for a day or two. Adam Lind was 3 for 3 with a homer and a walk. The only Jays to hit were Aaron Hill who had double and Alex Gonzalez who had a single. The rest of the lineup had ofers.
Scott Downs pitched a perfect 8th.
The bad? Jason Frasor came in with a one run lead in the 9th. He gave up a leadoff double to Michael Young. He struck out Josh Hamilton. Vlad Guerrero got a soft bouncer that Aaron Hill made a great play on to keep the ball on the infield and the lead for the moment. Nelson Cruz fought off a pitch for a double down the line to tie the score. After an intentional walk, Jarrod Saltalamacchia hit a deep fly, over a shallow outfield to win the game.
Travis Snider didn't have a good day either, going 0 for 4 with 3 Ks.
Jays of the Day are Wells (.315 WPA), Downs (.150), Hill (.133) and Lind (.122). We'll give one to Marcum too even though his WPA was -.027. He was excellent. Suckage? Well Frasor (surprise -.781), John Buck (-.120) and Overbay (-.110). Snider was on the edge (-.096) but he also made a nice catch in left (even if he took a round about route to the ball.
If you want a Cito rant. It the 8th with the bases loaded, 1 out and lefty pitcher, Cito allowed Overbay to bat. We all know Lyle doesn't hit lefties and he struck out. Unfortunately, this is Cito, he doesn't like to pinch hit and he wouldn't with a lead for Lyle because he doesn't like Ruiz at first. We have a choice, get used to it or drink a lot.
So an off day tomorrow and then Wednesday our number 2 starter, Brian Tallet, goes up against the Rangers.
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yep
not pinch hitting with ruiz in the 7th was what pissed me off most. one run is shaky in that park against that lineup.
Time to reset the Jays of the Day counters on the left hand bar!
Also I thought even though he didn’t have the WPA for it that Marcum deserved an honourable mention for the way he pitched after all that time off.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Tough one.
We all know the Jays aren’t winning the WS this year so I chose to dwell on the positives. Vernon, Lind and Marcum had a fantastic day. If it wasn’t for a unFrasorlike meltdown, we are 1-0.
I’m really looking forward to watch our rotation this year.
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Apr 5, 2010 5:31 PM EDT reply actions
If you want more Cito rant
Wilner and Grumpy were saying that Cito left Marcum in there too long, not even having anyone throwing in the pen when the no-hitter got broken up. I’m not sure I agree on the whole, but he certainly could have used a visit from someone to steady things…
Ball.
Yeah....I can understand there point.
but the homer was a cheap one and he got out of the inning quick afterward. It didn’t look to me like he had lost much.
is a tough call...I wouldn't have pulled him before the homer....
after the homer, I’d want him to get thru the inning to have a shot at a win…
I think Marcum was handled perfectly
People disect too much after loses.
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Apr 5, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't say perfectly
Pretty good, not perfect. Wanted someone to at least talk to him, but that’s a minor thing that doesn’t really matter. It wasn’t a disaster by any means, certainly there were more pressing issues with the coaching in the game.
Ball.
Didn't Buck go out to talk to him?
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Apr 5, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
There definetly was a mount visit
I can’t remember when exactly it occured, but it was in the 7th inning.
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Apr 5, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Thing about that Cruz HR was that it wasn’t a bad pitch by any means from Marcum, it looked like one of those half swings that you see a guy like Guerrero do sometimes and the ball somehow managed to carry out. It wasn’t a nice hit by any means, not sure if it was the wind that carried it out or not…but either way, Marcum wasn’t pitching poorly even the 7th. Also, the “walk” kind of annoyed me because on the replay you saw that the guy didn’t actually check his swing and should have been called out. But what are you going to do…it was close enough that you can’t entirely blame the ump for saying he didn’t swing.
The Cruz "Home run"
Is a lazy fly ball in most ballparks. You are right too, it appears Hamilton did swing at ball 4.
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Apr 5, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
How did you know it was me?
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Apr 5, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
that's an admin secret
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I have a question for you
IS boston still paying you ? lol
lucas
by TorontoBluejays10 on Apr 5, 2010 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Marcum
did a nice job for much of the game, but you can’t win them all. Hopefully, the Blue Jays turn things around and will be atop the AL East with my Orioles. If that can happen, I can probably have any woman in the world I want to. I just don’t want to see the BoSox and Yankees dominate anymore!
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Apr 5, 2010 6:16 PM EDT reply actions
Cito
I love Cito and everything he has done for the organization but he is not the type of coach the bluejays need right now!
One of the many ways the Jays will lose games this year. Too bad they blew a very nice outing by Marcum. Is it too late to make Morrow the closer?
Vernon is looking good, I wonder how long it will last?
In defense to Cito
This lost was Frasor’s fault.
Downs should get the next save opportunity as a result, or else the next loss will be Cito’s fault.
But it was only one game, hopefully Cito sees the light and stops Batista from leading off.
If JoBa doesn’t lead off, I don’t know who does. Maybe Vernon? I’m not saying JoBa is a great leadoff hitter, but no one else has any leadoff qualities to them.
I think people put too much thought in the closer role
For some reason people think it should be the same guy every time, when it should go to the hot hand. It is different if we had Rivera, Papelbon, etc, but we don’t.
I don't think you can pull Frasor after 1 blown save
If Downs blows the next one, does Gregg get a shot?
I don't see why Gregg shouldn't
But I would rather see Frasor get another crack if Downs fails
Why not?
None are proven enough, I think it should be closer by committee
I don’t see what Frasor has that Downs doesn’t, they both deserve the chance.
I am not saying Frasor is crap and doesn’t deserve to be closer, but I think Downs should get the next shot base on their performances.
ah, well I don't disagree with the closer by committee scenario
I thought you meant to hand over the closer role to Downs. I think the pen should be managed based on matchups and high leverage situations regardless of the inning.
Well I wouldn’t remove Frasor as closer just because of one blown loss. Remember, he was the Jays most reliable reliever last season. If he blows 3 or 4 more saves in the next couple weeks, then ok, then maybe try someone else. But its 162 games in a season, all is not lost so soon.
I just don’t like Frasor as a closer because his pitches are slightly above average but nothing outstanding, so if his control goes, he becomes very hittable. Same goes for Downs, but at least Downs, in the past hasn’t had many games of control issues and is usually very reliable, not to mention a rubber arm.
But in my eyes, Morrow has the best stuff to be a closer, not to mention the mental makeup.
Definitely agree with you
I was saying that I think situational and leverage matchups and are more important than having a guy you can call “the closer.” I guess a lot of relief pitchers say that they like to know what their role will be going into the games, so that’s understandable, but I think it’s generally more important to use the right guy at the right time.
I have no problem with Frasor trying for the save today and I have no problem with Frasor trying for a save on Wednesday, unless there’s a tight spot in the bottom of the eighth with Vlad Guerrero batting and men on because I don’t think it’s worth it to save Frasor for the ninth in that situation.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I’m hoping Ruiz gets the start for one of EE, Overbay or Snider by virtue of moving some players around. It’ll probably mean Lind will have to play the field which, at this stage, isn’t the worst thing in the world.
you would rather
start a career minor leaguer over a 22-year-old budding star (optimistic I know) in Snider? and if Ruiz starts over Encarnacion, who plays third? I think we all want Ruiz to platoon with Overbay…
i'd be a lot happier
with EE in the lineup and Ruiz hitting lefties, seeing as there’s no reason no to give EE his at-bats (hopefully he can develop some more) and inflate Overbay’s numbers. JoBa is just a stopgap, really.
Don't Like Frasor in the closers role
He’s not really a bona fide ML closer in my opinion. I don’t think we’re gonna see another year like he lad last year. I think he’ll revert to somewhere in the middle of last year and his historical averages. That means he’ll have a 3.4 ERA or something. He’s just not the dominant force other teams have at the very end of the bullpen.
Tough one today but I expect 95 losses or thereabouts, so I’m not putting too much stock into this year. This is rebuild mode folks!
Waiting for Wallace
It stunk that Frasor blew it today. Overplayed couldn’t drive in a run in the 8th with one out. He struck out on three pitches and once again proved he is not a viable option for the 5th spot or 1st base on a team that is every going to win.
Overplayed is a way more descriptive nickname than Overpaid
nicely done
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Cruz hit a low pitch down and away. He barely got it and he pushed it out in the opposite field.
No one is saying Cruz isn’t strong, but the wind help that one a bit.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
No way that one makes it out of Rogers Centre. Unfortunately, sometimes you get stung. Marcum threw a good outside pitch that Cruz managed to catch up to, and had enough loft to catch the wind.
I don't even think it was a strike
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
I have to say
in the past few years that the jays have an afternoon game and I get home from work and flip on the game, they proceed to blow the game. Odd how that works… or maybe they just blow a lot of games.
Why an off day already?
I don’t understand having the opening game then right away a day off in the middle of the first series. Looks like it happened in 2007 and 2002 as well. Anyone know why they do this?
I think MLB does that as insurance against the opening day getting rained/snowed out. Many of the teams have that gap now. I heard the ESPN announcers talk about it in the Yankees Red Sox season opener.
Hmmm, that makes some sense I suppose as opening day is such a big deal. I’d rather they just put the off day at the end of the series, giving them room to make up a game. But then that means the rained-out first game tickets would then become the third game or something (as the second game becomes the opening game), upsetting the fans that wanted the opening game (and maybe the plans of the team for pre-game ceremonies and what not). But that’s sport, if a game’s rained out, on to the next one. It just feels really anti-climactic to me to start the season with a bang then straight to a day off. Reading articles it seems like the players don’t like it either. I just think scheduling days off in the middle of a series is wrong, anytime during the season. Multi-game series are unique to baseball among the big North American sports and a big part of the drama is the consecutive nature of the games.
“Downs should get the next save opportunity as a result,”
Crazy talk. A HUGE component of closing is being able to shake off the blown save and approach the next opportunity with complete confidence. Switching closers after every blown save is the worst possible way to handle it. Total confidence killer.
Yes
Even the greatest closer the Jays have ever had blew the occasional one. I speak, of course, of the Terminator.
Yes, it’s magnified because it was the first game of the season, but you have to give players a chance to prove that they can or cannot do the job.
Do I think Frasor is the closer in two or three years time? I don’t think so mainly because he doesn’t have the aura of intimidation that a good or great closer has. But for now and for the sake of the psyche of our starting pitchers, we need the most reliable guy we have, which is Frasor. I wouldn’t mind the Jays looking at identifying who will be the closer for the future, but I would wait for that step until the season has progressed quite a bit before making that move. First we want to get the young starters feeling as good about themselves as we can before we start messing with the supporting bullpen.
absolutely
it is completely counterproductive
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Yup
A manager’s got to take the long view and in dealing with real flesh and blood players (rather than stats and TV images like us fans), you have to stick with your guys. If Frasor is the closer then let him be the closer through thick and thin at least for the first month anyway.
Same goes for the comment about pinch-hitting for Overbay. If you name a guy an everyday player, particularly a veteran, then you don’t pinch hit for him after a couple of at-bats on opening. To my mind this is done, it would be such a slight.
Like Frasor, Cito has given his confidence to Overbay as a full-time guy and as such you give Overbay some time to prove or disprove himself. There’s a culture among players, what things mean and a manager has to respect that, especially an old school guy like Cito.
Unfortunately,
Overbay has had plenty of time to show that he can hit lefties and he hasn’t been able to do so.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
the situations aren't really comparable, however
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
sigh
me too
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Good explanation of Cito's thinking
This quote from an MLB article explains his thinking well:
This season, Gaston said he and general manager Alex Anthopoulos sat down with Overbay and informed the first baseman that he would receive regular playing time.
“We sat down and talked with Overbay,” Gaston said. "[Suggesting I should pinch-hit for him] is like — Why don’t I pinch-hit for Vernon [Wells]? Why don’t I pinch-hit for [Aaron] Hill? Why don’t I pinch-hit for somebody like [Edwin] Encarnacion? That’s what you’re talking about right there.
“[Pinchhitting] destroys guys. It’s easy for you guys to say it or other people to think it, but to be with these guys every day, and every time they’re looking over their shoulder, seeing if you’re going to pinch hit for them, it just absolutely kills them -unless it’s understood, if it’s understood from the start.”
From a human perspective, in terms of actually having to handle flesh and blood players, I think it makes sense. If you tell a guy he’s the everyday guy, then by an large you stick with him – and don’t start pinch-hitting for him on the first day. Otherwise, it’s got to sap his confidence if right from the get-go you’re pinch-hitting for him in a situation. This is one area where I respect Cito’s old-school baseball values. Now if Overbay really stinks again against left-handers then at some point you have to reassess him playing full-time, and maybe this is an area where Cito is loyal to a fault – in that he sticks too long with some guys. But with Overbay that’s a conversation to have in a month or two, not on the first day, since the decision’s been made to give him a shot full-time.
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