The Trade, After Having a Little Time to Think About Things.
by Tom Dakers on Jul 29, 2010 9:41 PM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays Analysis
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PrintSo the initial shock is slowly fading. Maybe a more reasoned view will come out.
It was a shock because I had, I think we all had, penciled Brett Wallace into first base next year. Yeah his numbers at Vegas could be better but you can't change your view of a prospect because of 4 ok months of baseball. Doing things like that cause teams to do stupid things like trade Yunel Escobar for Alex Gonzalez. Letting a few months of baseball chance your opinion about a player is a foolish thing. Clearly Wallace wasn't hitting poorly enough to make a person decide he was no longer a prospect. I still expect him to be a very good major leaguer.
All that said, we do have other options at first base. Adam Lind is going to be a part of this team for a long time and, to me, he's too young to bury at DH. Lind is a big target at first base. He seems to make the catches well. We have seen him play a few (very few) innings at first and he doesn't look out of place. I'm relatively sure with a little bit of work he could be a decent first baseman.
Now the player we got, Anthony Gose. At first look his numbers don't seem all that impressive. But looking a little more closely they do seem better. He is only in his second full season of pro ball and just 19 years old. When he was drafted in the second round of the 2008 draft, he was both a pitcher and a batter. He apparently threw a 97 mph fastball. Last year at 18, he hit .263/.323/.353 with 76 steals in 96 attempts. Only 2 home runs but then just 18 years old. This year, moved up to High-A he is hitting .263/.325/.385, with 4 home runs, 36 steals in 63 attempts. Not great base stealing but clearly he has the speed to steal, so I'd expect his success rate will improve as he learns how.
The lack of power isn't troubling, most kids put on muscle as they leave their teens. Scouting reports I've seen say he is expect to fill out as he ages.
His defense in CF is supposed to be great. Speed to cover all the ground needed and an arm that can throw 97, you have to figure he'll get his share of assists. One scouting report I saw said they expect him to win a Gold Glove one day.
The other factor is that it is easier to find first baseman than it is to find good CFers.
The thing is that everyone had Wallace as one of the top prospects in baseball. I don't think anyone would have had him out of the top three of Jay prospects. He has the potential to be a special bat. While I don't think it is as lopsided a trade as I did at first glance, but I can't help but think we should have gotten a little bit more for Wallace. I guess the hope is that our scouts saw something in Gose and that with coaching he can be a special CFer.
I wonder if this mean Jays don't have as much faith in Jake Marisnick. Jake is about 4 months younger and is just at Rookie League now.
Let's put up a poll to see what everyone thinks.
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The more I read, the more I'm warming to the trade.
That being said, I still voted ’stros
by craig in calgary on Jul 29, 2010 9:55 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah me too, on both.
That Sickels rates Gose as a C+ prospect and Wallace as a B+ makes me think we could of gotten a little more. Our scouts might be smarter than him though.
The frustrating thing is that we are trading for him as a B+ prospect. I feel the rules of trading have been broken a little bit with this trade. I understand the trade and everything, but there is supposed to be fair trade in this game. Even if he turns out to be an A+ prospect, the deal wasn’t equal at the time of trade.
Wallace was a B+ back when his bat was considered to be “special”. No one thinks his bat is special anymore; he has stagnated and hasn’t shown the “elite on base” skills he was touted as having for 2 years now. The defense at first base is also probably not even average. Prospect-values aren’t static; and Wallace’s status was more volatile for most because his move to first base meant he had to rake in order to keep that B+ rating. He didn’t.
The reality is that we probably traded a B for a B-.
via Keith Law's twitter
I like Gose for what he is: A very crude, very toolsy position player. He’s a lottery ticket – if it works, you hit it big.
I hope the Jays hit the lottery. For now I also voted for the Astros.
by torontocoltsfan on Jul 29, 2010 9:59 PM EDT reply actions
yeah that's about what he is.
he hasn’t played enough to be able to turn his tools into stats. So, to me, it is sort of a wild guess what he could turn out to be.
I hope the Jays hit the lottery too
And while we are at it I want to win the lottery myself. I really would like season tickets.
I hope that I hit the lottery....
Then, I don’t mind the Jays hitting it as well…
But only after I hit it…
Festina Lente
Same as Craig
But I think it will be the Jays, great CF defense can play in either league but from what I’m reading on Wallaces D is that he’s more suited to DH in the long run, which obviously the Astros don’t have.
by T_Mizz on Jul 29, 2010 10:01 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
in the LOOOOOOOOOONG run
jays win, but Wallace will show decent production by next year or next next. Gose will at minimum take 2 years to be ready, at MINIMUM
To Infinity. And BEYOND!!!
by YunelTheLazyLatino on Jul 29, 2010 10:02 PM EDT reply actions
Now that it has sunk in...
I think that it is similar to the Escobar/Gonzo trade, and a win-win.
After reading on Fan Graphs and BTB, it seems that the majority of writers are not as high on Wallace as we (the members of this site) have been all year. Then again, with the way Overbay started the year, my grandmother would have looked like an amazing prospect at first.
Did we get the best player. Who knows. Was it a good trade, and worth the risk?
…
How is Escobar doing?
There She Gooooooes!
Jose Julio Ruiz
Kinda fell off the face of the Earth, not sure what happened to him.
by T_Mizz on Jul 30, 2010 1:26 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I suppose Cooper is now going to be our first baseman of the future?
Yippee, I am so excited.
You could always sub in Lind at 1B
Toronto Maple Leafs: Nowhere to go but up!
by LeafFan1989 on Jul 29, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
recently he's been raking
and even shown a little home run pop… not that he’s “the next brett wallace” but all is not completely lost
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No way.
It’s gonna be Lind/Snider/JPA/someone else.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Jul 29, 2010 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
as of next year
they had to move an infielder anyway. they were going to have EE, Wallace, Bautista (probably), JPA (call him IF cause he could probably play 1B), Lind, Hill, Escobar all in the infield. I don’t see a whole lot being given up by moving Lind to first – Wallace wasn’t going to win any Gold Gloves either
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There are so many decisions to be made in the next year or so for you guys; it's crazy.
I’m just happy you guys have a competent GM running the show.
AA’s hit rate is too damn high for me to question this move.
Like I said before, a low-to-mid .800 OPS 1B is an easy find.
I’d rather try to hit tha jackpot with a an athletic albeit raw premium player.
I could see 95 wins from Toronto in the next 3/4 years.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Jul 29, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
heh
must admit it’s nicer than the alternative. who do you cheer for?
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Red Sox
gonna be in Toronto in 2 weeks watching the series from the Renaissance.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Jul 29, 2010 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Is this how we sneak Snider into the starting lineup then?
Trade Overbay, move Lind to first, stick Travis in at DH?
I'm thinking that when the Leafs win the Cup, I'll lose my drinking problem.
by leafsfan4life94 on Jul 29, 2010 10:11 PM EDT reply actions
Btw
Has anyone noticed how AA only pulls off trades that no one generated rumors for?
1. AA runs a tight ship.
2. US media (and likely Canadian Media as well) don’t care about the Jays
Toronto Maple Leafs: Nowhere to go but up!
by LeafFan1989 on Jul 29, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
what the hell?
it keeps changing my formatting, it should say ‘number 2 is inconsequential’
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I chose the Astros
On the basis that Wallace is much more the sure thing, and projects to upwards of .280-25-85. He could do some serious damage at home in Houston, where the have a very short LF porch.
Gose is just too far away to project right now, and these types speedy and impatient hitters are notoriously hit & miss type prospects. The modest batting stats don’t concern me at this early age, but usually you can tell what kind of patience a hitter will have early on. Right now that’s below average, so I don’t expect that to every be that high. That said it sounds like he has the makings of a very good defensive CF and that is more important than a first baseman.
Nonetheless, considering Wallace is ML ready and projects fairly well at the dish, I say the Astros did well here. But it’s hard to have an opinion when you’ve never heard of this Gose guy before today.
The Astros got the better player
But that doesn’t mean that the Jays lost the trade. Like you said, its easier to find a first basemen than a Center Fielder and have plenty of options at first in the future. Also, the Jays appear to have a lot of impact middle of the order type bats in Hill (Hopefully he turns it around, along with..), Lind, Snider and even JPA and not a lot of speed for the top of the order. Marisnick is a good prospect bue he probably won’t be anything special, he could be a really good fourth outfielder though and to be honest I would be totally fine with that.
I'd say the exact opposite
- the Jays got the better player but that doesn’t mean the Astros lost the deal.
If your only evaluation of a deal is where the respective players were ranked on some list, then you think Wallace is the better player. the problem with that is that on a lot of lists, the likelihood of reaching the ceiling is as important as how high the ceiling might be.
Wallace is a MUCH safer bet to reach a MUCH lower ceiling. if Wallace is Overbay with a bit more bat and a pretty noticeably worse glove….and Gose is Carl Crawford except in CF….which player has more raw ability?
bottom line for me is that Wallace will bew a good hitter in Houston, but there is EVERY possibility that whoever plays 1B for the jays in the coming few years will deliver as much value as Wallace gives the Astros – it’s not going to be difficult to find that.
Will is the man
I agree 100% . Batting 300 in Vegas is so misleading just as inflated ERA’s in the desert need to be considered.LInd is too young to be a DH and they have been seemingly grooming him there in practise.
I think that's about right
the deal surprised me but it’s hard not to like a 19-year old kid with that kind of ceiling, already holding his own in high-A. I also think the Jays think the only way to “fix” Lind, in whom they have a long-term commitment, is to get him out onto the field.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Gonna say Astros because they got the player with more immediate chance to succeed
But this trade isn’t going to have a full conclusion for a long long time.
Ball.
Gose sounds eerily similar to Devon White at this early stage
Lowish average type hitter with XB pop, excellent defensively in the field and a burner on the basepaths, and doesn’t draw many walks at the dish. Although Devo had a fairly decent arm for CF, Gose’s blows his away.
If we could get roughly the same player as Devo manning CF then I would take this deal, even though Devo had his OB% challenges throughout his career.
Taking walks is a Skill that can be learned
Just because he is bad at 19 doesn’t mean he’ll always be bad.
Anything can be learned
But generally speaking, a person with a poor eye early on DOES NOT change to have a good eye later on and vice versa. The free swinger almost always stays a free swinger, and a patient hitters almost always stays a patient hitter.
I
not always
a lot of players develop their eye, though you’re right in saying it’s not as easy/common to see developed as something like power. JPA’s seen a fairly substantial rise in his BB rate over the past couple seasons
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J.P.'s is better
But it’s just below average now when before it was well below average (hacker territory). Dollars to donuts some of that rise is attributable to pitchers pitching around him more know (with his monster season) as opposed to him developing his eye better. Probably a combination of the two.
Nonetheless, patience at the plate is a skill much more tied into demeanor & personality it would seem, and as such, doesn’t change the way power can be developed for example. A player can get physically stronger but usually his personality (aggresiveness, passiveness etc ) remain.
ya certainly
he went from an extremely poor BB rate to a passable one for someone with his hitting ability. just not sure how much i agree in general, it’d be interesting to see stats on it
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I disagree that patience is mostly about demeanor and personality.
We call it “patience” or “plate discipline” and I think patience as we commonly think of it is a part of it, but only a part. Playing a bigger role are things like pitch recognition, bat speed (which allows you to wait on pitches longer before committing), bat control, hand-eye coordination, eyesight.
Otherwise anyone could improve their walk rate just by being more “patient,” and that’s not really what you see. Arencibia has the same personality he had a year ago imo, he’s just recognizing breaking pitches better off the pitchers hand now and laying off them (and he has better eyesight due to the surgery).
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
And I must say the Devon White
To this day is the best defensive outfielder I’ve ever seen in his prime. Just amazing.
According to BB Ref’s Total Zone Total Fielding Runs Above Average, White saved 133 runs in 15727 defensive innings in the OF during his career. Quite good indeed, especially in his prime years.
That pic they have of him on the Blue Jay homepage
makes him look like Devon’s brother.
Devo had more of a fro
and bigger nostrils however
I don’t care about winners or losers on the trade. I think, if the Jays are right on Gose, they have filled a long term need with a high upside guy. I’m not going to throw Wallace under the bus, but filling first base isn’t the most difficult challenge to address in free agency, and right not, aging 1B/DH who can still hit is at an all time low in terms of costs.
I don’t know how much I personally like the move, but I can’t fault the thought process behind it. I still think there’s another piece coming we don’t know about yet.
So eventually?
Snider-Gose-Wells
Hill-Hech-Escobar-JPA
Drabek
d’Arnaud Lind
I like the Defense from that lineup.
As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
I gotta think that Marisnick looks to be in that outfield too, and Escobar’s best defensive tool could be his wicked strong arm. You don’t put an arm like that at 2nd.
by T_Mizz on Jul 30, 2010 1:06 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
agreed about Adeniy/Esco
if they are both here Esco is the SS probably.
On Marisnick – I think he’s on a slow enough track that if/when he arrives he’s Wells’ successor (in RF according to this scenario)
throwing this out there
can we call him GoseRunner? (on First)
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In 2008
Wallace was taken 13th overall, Gose was taken 51st, Wallace is a least 3 years older (exact amount not sure). Had Gose gone to college like Wallace did (wallace elected college, and was taken in the 42nd round), who’s to say Gose wouldn’t be a top ten pick coming out of college at the age of Wallace? at some point the age difference has to be considered here. If you want to trade for a stud prospect you’ve got to take a chance and do it when he’s in the lower levels otherwise its tough to do
If in 3 years time Gose isn’t at or exceeding the prospect level that Wallace is now, I’ll consider it a disappointment but right now I’m okay with it.
the kid
really still has 3 or 4 years before he’ll need to start producing… though i’m excited and curious to see how he handles AA/AAA pitching
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Im not sure i agree with the Marisnick comment
The guy is having himself a nice 1st year and i dont think adding a player shows they dont have faith in him..
We already know that AA doesnt care about position its about best talent
With that out of the way
I likeish the trade for the jays, i, like many, thought Wallace was our 1B of the future. I would of at least like to see him play a game with the jays. But Gose has a lot of potential and AA is swinging for the fences with this trade. I think the Devon White comparision could be his ceiling. I also like Adam Jones as a comparision but with more speed.
Gose is 8 months older than Marisnick and 4 months older than Crouse.
by ayjackson on Jul 29, 2010 11:36 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
AA got too cute...
I think, sometimes, you get a little cute with your decision making. Gose is an intriguing but that’s it. It’s like a game show contestant given the choice of either the car or the mystery box.
AA, in this case, chose the mystery box and I think it’s a dud.
Damn. I thought about this for a couple of hours too.
Still makes it true.
… and great minds think alike ;)
I think The Jays brass just fell in love with this guy a little to much
And AA was ready to do anything to get him.
Not as lopsided as I first thought but still an uneven trade for potential. But at least we still can win this trade. The Morrow trade, there is no way Seattle wins that one ever.
go look at chavez's numbers
then come talk to me ;)
i still think we won but he looks like he can be a solid player
Not denying that Chavez looks like a solid player
but I have heard that High Desert is notorious for enhancing home run totals, much like Las Vegas and the PCL.
High Desert at home + Cal League overall
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Jul 30, 2010 3:22 AM EDT up reply actions
What about Darin Mastroianni?
I hear he plays solid D out in CF. Maybe he moves to left now. Our 3 OF in 2013 hopefully:
LF: Mastroianni
CF: Gose
RF: Snider
Not to shabby if Gose can reach his potential.
Wells DHing and Lind at first?
since Wells is around until 2014…
what changed in 8 months?
annoying questions:
was AA tracking Gose back in December 09?
why did they trade for Wallace, a prospect, only to give up on him 8 months later? what happened in the interim?
did they see something they didnt like in Wallace in that time? or were they blown away by Gose and just
or… is Gose a blue jay only for a few more days (or hours)? will he be packaged with someone (Downs, Bautista, Buck) and shipped to the Bronx or Fenway or somewhere else? does Gose fit into some other team’s plans and not actually in AA’s?
messed up a sentence...
or were they blown away by Gose all along and jumped at the chance to acquire him.
AA has said that he was trying to get Gose in the Halladay trade and again during the spring. Which I guess I kinda get, there appears to be a bit of a disconnect between BA’s rankings and where GMs rank prospects. GMs don’t appear to want to trade guys that have such a high upside, but BA ranks guys higher the closer they get to the show.
He also said that he figures into the Blue Jays plans, but that could be as a piece in a trade down the road as long as it benefits the team in the long run. If there’s one thing AA has proven it’s that no one is untouchable for the right price.
by T_Mizz on Jul 30, 2010 1:14 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Chill...
Jays win for several reasons:
1) Brett was not really growing. I’ve been thinking he’s an Overbay only without the defense.
2) They say Gose has 3 tools that rank as 70 on the 20 – 80 scale. His arm, his speed and his defense. SERIOUSLY: guys with two “70’s” are rare – 3 “70’s” are rarer than hens teeth.
3) Gose plays a near "Gold Glove defense.
4) Gose’s intangibles are off the chart.
5) Gose is not yet 19
6) Gose plays a near “Gold Glove” CF – a screaming weakness in our present organization.
7) With Wallace looking like “Overbay 2” – he was blocking one of Bautista, Snider or Lind. All three are now unblocked and Lewis doesn’t have to share playing time as we try to fit in Snider.
8) Scouts say Gose -who has only played the outfield for two years, being drafted as a pitcher, is going to hit and hit for some power.
9) When “Wallace” was a young “key” to the future we didn’t have Hech in the system, nor Lewis, nor Escobar – the shape of our system is changing – while Wallace has an excellent chance to become Overbay – Gose has at least a reasonable chance to be a better all round CFer than Devo or Moseby. That is SOME KIND OF CFer.
10) I’m learning to trust AA’s Team of Baseball Minds.
Perfect post ruined on a bloop in the 9th
Great post only thing I didn’t agrre with was he was born in August of 1990, making him 20 this year. Like a perfect game spoiled by a bloop single in the 9th
by T_Mizz on Jul 30, 2010 1:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
it's not perfect, but
it’s more like allowing someone to get on base on a check-swing fluke contact and the infielder drops the ball…..
frankly, a few weeks is really nothing
zing.
but then he handles it with A-1 class all the way, and mylegacy still gets a car
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teach anything? I do not think so
You can teach hitting. You cannot teach speed. You either got it, or you don’t.
Hitting is timing, rhythm, eye-hand – practice, practice, practice.
Speed is a gift.
wallace was probably an Upshaw. Would rather have a Devo out there, absolutely.
Question: have the Jays EVER had an all-star at 3B, or even close? I can only rememebr light-hitting avg. fielders (Mulliniorg, Gruber, Sprague – no one special). Wish we could find our own Robinson, Schmidt or Brett…sigh…
Troy Glaus
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
ROY: Hinske
And I don’t like people complaining about Gruber or Sprague…they get a pass based on WS wins, in my books.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
Another Gruber vote
Gruber got hurt. Healthy he was some physical specimen. A real "dirtbag’ – and I mean that in the nicest way!
have the Jays EVER had an all-star at 3B, or even close?
We’ve had some all-stars at 3B. What we’ve not had is anyone play 3B at an all-star level for more than a year or two.
It seems to me that if we put together an all-time Blue Jay team using only their career Blue Jays numbers, 3B is going to weakest position by far.
Here’s a list from bluejays.com. It’s a bit depressing.
Toronto Blue Jays all-time roster
Player Name Position Year(s) Played
Kevin Ahrens* Third Base 2008-2009
Edgardo Alfonzo* Third Base 2006
Jason Armstrong Third Base 2006
Eric Arnold Third Base 2006
Dave Baker Third Base 1982
Tony Batista Third Base 1999-2001
Howard Battle Third Base 1995
Jose Bautista* Third Base 2008-2010 (Present)
Casey Blake* Third Base 1999
Shawn Bowman* Third Base 2010
Scott Campbell* Third Base 2008-2009
Darnell Coles Third Base 1993-1994
Christian Colonel* Third Base 2010
Ted Cox Third Base 1981
Scott Dragicevich Third Base 2006
Edwin Encarnacion* Third Base 2009-2010
Edwin Encarnacion* Third Base 2009-2010 (Present)
Tom Evans* Third Base 1997-1998
Ray Giannelli Third Base 1991
Troy Glaus* Third Base 2006-2008
Rene Gonzales Third Base 1991
Willie Greene Third Base 1999-2000
Kelly Gruber Third Base 1984-1992
Chris Gutierrez* Third Base 2006, 2008-2009
Brad Hassey Third Base 2006-2007
Anthony Hatch* Third Base 2007-2008
John Hattig Third Base 2006-2007
Shea Hillenbrand Third Base 2005-2006
Eric Hinske* Third Base 2002-2006
Dave Hollins Third Base 1999
Roy Howell Third Base 1977-1980
Garth Iorg Third Base 1978-1987
Mickey Klutts Third Base 1983
Corey Koskie* Third Base 2005
Luis Lopez Third Base 2001
Mike Macha Third Base 1980
Ken Macha Third Base 1981
Rance Mulliniks Third Base 1982-1992
Sean Ochinko* Third Base 2009-2010
Willis Otanez* Third Base 1999-2000
Andrew Pinckney* Third Base 2009
Tom Quinlan Third Base 1990-1992
Doug Rader Third Base 1977
Scott Rolen* Third Base 2008-2009
Mike Sharperson Third Base 1987
Danny Solano Third Base 2006
Ed Sprague Third Base 1991-1998
Brett Wallace* Third Base 2010
Top Prospects...
I guess it’s time to put a little “strikethrough” on the Top Prospect List on the left of the main page.
There She Gooooooes!
AA said
he was looking at Gose for a long time. didn’t he say the same thing about wallace last year when halladay was traded?
1st baseman of the future...
He’s in AAA right now and is pounding the ball, his name is JP Arencibia. My feeling is here that JPA has crushed AAA pitching where Wallace held his own but didn’t stand out as the Jays hoped. The Jays can now ‘save’ JPA from the grind of being an everyday catcher and put his power bat at 1B where he will flourish!
Future Lineup (2012 maybe?)
C – D’Arnaud
1B – Arencibia
2B – Hech
SS – Escobar
3B – Hill
LF – Wells
CF – Gose
RF – Snider
DH – Lind
JPA
No rush to move him to 1B. We can sign a 1b type if the team decides they don’t want to put Lind there. Let’s keep both of their bats in the lineup.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
Im beginning to change my mind on this deal.
Whilst i think Wallace will be a good major leaguer, the fact that he plays 1B is a big part of this deal. Its not hard to find a 1B/DH on the FA market who can OPS .800-.850.
However, the chances of Gose even making the majors aren’t great right now… And whilst he could become the next Crawford… he could also become the next Joey Gathright or Lastings Milledge or one of the countless other players with “tools” who didn’t put it all together.
Onions Baby Onions
BTW, if Gose is going to be our version of Carl Crawford
Someone please remind him to always wear a cup
"I'm not trading a major league first baseman for some sally leaguer!!!"
Just tweaked JPs quote a bit.
"I'm not trading a major league ready first baseman for some sally leaguer!!!"
Should have had the ready in there
Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet but...
Has anyone considered the possibility that Brett Wallace has an attitude issue? Nothing has ever been reported and I’m purely speculating however the guy has been traded 3 times in a year. When the Jays got him it was brought up and shot down for the fact that he was traded for Matt Holliday and Roy Halladay in the first 2 deals. Now he was traded for another prospect and one who in most ‘experts’ eyes isn’t as good (though has more potential).
Is there something wrong with his attitude or work ethic?
Could be that or it could be that once each team has had their own trainers and team work with him they aren’t as high on him as they were.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
could be that too...
I don’t think he’s going to be a total bust but I also don’t think he’ll become a batting champion or 30+ HR hitter that some thought he could develop into. If the Astro’s deal Big Puma he’ll get his shot soon enough…
Another article on Fangraphs
So, if reports are to be believed, this is the guy the Blue Jays wanted since the Roy Halladay trade. The Phillies wouldn’t budge, and sent Michael Taylor instead, who Toronto immediately flipped for Brett Wallace. When Gose was pushed into the Roy Oswalt trade, Toronto saw their chance. I don’t think these series of moves bode particularly well for Taylor or Wallace; in Taylor’s case, clearly the Phillies and Blue Jays value Gose over him, and in Wallace’s case, it’s never good when a guy plays for four organizations before reaching the Major Leagues. Jason Bay is the only success story with that resume I can think of.
As for Gose, he’s certainly a guy that looks the part. Gose has a good center fielder body, and absolutely blazing speed, with now 115 steals in 245 career games. He does make an insane amount of outs on the bases, too, though. His defense in center field — while it didn’t get good reviews from TotalZone last year — has been praised by scouts. His first-step instincts might need some work, but his range and his cannon arm are certainly Major League caliber.
But, like you probably guessed, the question is the bat. An optimist would point to the minor steps forward taken in both the walk and power columns this year, though the pessimist would be quick to point out that neither is to an acceptable level. I wouldn’t write off the patience of a 19-year-old, but I don’t think you’ll find many that think this 60% groundball rate hitter will have much power to speak of at higher levels. And, of course, he’s now striking out more than ever, profiling to whiff 150 times per season. It’s hard to think he’ll ever get out of the negative range with the bat.
There is a path to success for Gose, but the sheer amount of refinement that will take makes it extremely unlikely. You have to think this kind of a guy becomes a fifth outfielder in the Majors at least, but his ceiling is about where Brett Wallace‘s meager median outcomes lie.
):
Onions Baby Onions
And on the other hand they said this about Wallace:
Wallace is pretty much just the opposite. His game is so dependent on offense, that even getting to 2-3 WAR consistently will be an issue. After Lance Berkman moves out of Houston, Wallace is the future at first base. He’s not good there, and is surely somewhere worse than 2.5 runs below average. To even reach 3 WAR, he’d have to produce 25 runs with the bat to be worth three wins. And given the fact that he’s never walked 50 times or hit 25 home runs in any season, getting to a .370 wOBA seems impossible.
Houston didn’t do well today. With their best chance to finally acquire a player they could build their future around, they acquired two players with role player ceilings.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
The thing is...
sure Gose could end up being special, but the chances are so slim it seems.
Its like buying a lottery ticket. Sure you could win, but statistically speaking, youre a moron for even spending $1 on one… So sure we only gave up a Lyle Overbay, but trading Lyle Overbay for Joey Gathright 2.0 would be considered pretty stupid… even if there is a chance this guy could turn into something special… its a SLIM chance.
Onions Baby Onions
And obviously the Jays and their army of scouts disagree on the the whole Slim part.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
I gotta add
that the Jyas have the biggest scouting team in all of baseball and if AA and his assembly of scounts beleive in Gose then for now who am I to disagree…In AA we trust!
Secondly I disagree on that its like buying a lotto ticket.
A lotto ticket is a random chance. With a completely random number
Trading for a prospect that your team of scouts have looked at (Presumably extensively) it not the same at all
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
So say you play Lotto Max
1 ticket a week
52 weeks a years
that amounts to $260 a year ($312 with encore) would the loss of $260 ruin your year?
The potential is a minimum $10 million but you are highly likely to get nothing. Reward greatly outweighs the risk.
AA didn’t quit his job and go play Blackjack at the casino, he bought a lottery ticket. Yes he could get nothing. but if he gets nothing the organization is not crippled. If he hits the jack pot the Jays win big.
the odds of you winning = 1 in 40 million or so
buying a few hundred tickets makes hardly any difference in your odds of winning. It is a bad financial decision.
you would be much better off if you invested that $250.
Onions Baby Onions
They’ve been scouting him for 2 years now and say that he’s one of the few under 20 players in the minors with whom every scout in the organization more or less agreed about his ability. It sounds like the people within our organization feel a lot stronger about Gose’s chances than anyone writing on the internet or looking at a stat sheet. They know its a risk and that he’s raw, but they also clearly believe he has the tools, work ethic, and makeup that makes him much more than a guy who can just run but cant play baseball.
I look at it like this
When we traded for Doc AA wanted Drabek, Travis and Gose. Philly said no on Gose but you can ave wallace instead. AA said they tried to get him 2 times in the trade for Doc. To me that means Wallace was viewed to high by us here maybe no so much by managment. But I would rather have a Carl Crawford type over a Lyle overbay type any day.
Anyways this can mean only one thing ALBErT PUJOLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BABY!!!!!!!!!
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errr i ment Taylor for wallace
http://www.reverbnation.com/syc
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This seems perfectly in line with AA's mindset
He’s not satisfied with adding adequate players to his roster. He wants top quality, controllable players. Based on scouting, Gose could be top quality, Wallace is likely adequate. Perhaps his scouts are wrong, but this is the strategy: don’t settle.
I've been looking at the sky
Win or Lose
AA knows he’ll kiss a few frogs looking for his Princes.
But in the AL East you just can’t win without a few Princes. I’d rather AA failed going for the World Series than failed trying to keep Baltimore in last place.
another trade
wow mike jacobs for a player tnl, put your seatbelts on guys this next day and a half is going to be a wild ride it appears.
It's good to love to win but it's better to hate to lose.
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