25 for 25: Blue Jays

by Solanus on Aug 21, 2010 5:46 PM EDT

I'm actually a St. Louis Cardinals fan, but over the past few months I've been working on a roster for each franchise in the majors, composed of players over the last 25 years. The way this works is that I pick one player from each season and I have to fill out an entire roster (for AL teams, 2 catchers, 2 infielders at each position, 5 total outfielders, one designated hitter, 5 starting pitchers, 4 relievers). I can't take more than one player for each year, I have to take one player each season even in the bad years, and I can't use the same player for multiple positions or years. If a player played the majority of his games at one position, I can't use that season for another position even if he's played it before. And I used basic minimums of 60 innings or 250 PA's (prorated for strike seasons).

The interesting part with this are the decisions that have to be made, whether it is, "Dang, there are some really nice outfielder seasons to choose from, who gets left out?", or, "Does this team even have two decent catchers in a 25-year span?", or, "This guy had so many great years - which one do I choose?" Sometimes a great year gets left out, sometimes a fluke, partial season gets tabbed for the team. I actually posted a fully researched extended version for the Cardinals from 1910 to 1934. The NL versions for this era are there as well (linky, linky, linky, linky).

You're welcome to pick apart my choices and make suggestions of your own. I'm looking forward to hearing from everybody.

C – Ernie Whitt (1989), Greg Zaun (2005)

1B – John Olerud (1993), Carlos Delgado (2000)

2B – Roberto Alomar (1992), Aaron Hill (2007)

3B – Kelly Gruber (1988), Eric Hinske (2002)

SS – Tony Fernandez (1990), Marco Scutaro (2009)

OF – Jesse Barfield (1986), George Bell (1987), Devon White (1991), Shawn Green (1999), Vernon Wells (2006)

DH – Paul Molitor (1994)

SP – Dave Stieb (1985), Al Leiter (1995), Pat Hentgen (1996), Roger Clemens (1997), Roy Halladay (2003)

RP – Paul Quantrill (1998), Kelvim Escobar (2001), Justin Speier (2004), Scott Downs (2008)

Notable exceptions: Pat Borders (1990), Fred McGriff (1989), Troy Glaus (2006), Alex Rios (2007), Dave Winfield (1992), Jimmy Key (1987), Juan Guzman (1992), Todd Stottlemyre (1994), David Wells (2000), Mark Eichhorn (1986), Tom Henke (1989), Duane Ward (1993), Billy Koch (2000), B.J. Ryan (2006)

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I would just like to apologize

For negating all of the great seasons for your relievers over the past 25 years. I went through the various years and picked who I thought the best options were and ended up missing out on Eichhorn and Henke and Ward and Ryan and Koch. The highest rated reliever that I actually chose came out as 13th on the list of bullpen seasons.

Normally, I try to save a place for great relief seasons or at least find a place for consistantly good relievers, but end up losing one or two just due to conflicts with other great seasons or because I have to make do with a reliever in an otherwise lean year, shorting a genuinely good closer. For your team, three of your best options (Eichhorn, Henke, Ward) all happened during a very busy portion of the era, ‘85-’93; trying to fit about 15 players into a 9 year span is impossible and guys like Jimmy Key, Jim Clancy, Doyle Alexander, Lloyd Moseby and Fred McGriff just fall by the wayside, along with the bullpen.

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on Aug 21, 2010 5:56 PM EDT reply actions

I don’t remember Kelvim Escobar closing much, he was primarily a starter. I was astonished that Tom Henke wasn’t used. As well as Darrin Fletcher for Catcher over Zaun or Joe Carter over Wells or Green, but maybe that didn’t fall into your criteria. Problem with winning 2 World Series and not much else for a mental exercise like this is you just want to use all the players that won.

Well we tried the no offense huddle, why not give the no huddle offense a go?!!

by mavadjdj on Aug 22, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions

Going down the list

- Escobar started out as a reliever in ‘97 (14 saves) and switched back for a couple seasons in ’01 (swingman) & ’02 (38 saves). As a starter, he didn’t stand a chance at making the team (his best year was ‘03, a 3-win year), but he could make the team as a reliever.
- Like I mentioned before, there wasn’t room for Henke or Eichhorn or Ward or Wells or Castillo.
- Fletcher’s two best seasons, ‘99 & ’00 go head-to-head with Shawn Green and Carlos Delgado. And Darrin’s value was only about 2 wins each year.
- Carter put up good counting stats, but he was at best a 4-win player. Green posted a 5.9 WAR in ’99 and Wells had a 6.7 in ’06. The only outfielders with higher numbers were Barfield and White.

Yeah, you guys are actually hurt by your great success in those years. Oakland has some of the same problems.

by Solanus on Aug 22, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Wow, nice work mate.

Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...

by JohnnyG on Aug 21, 2010 6:36 PM EDT reply actions

Lloyd Moseby

Where’s “SHAKER”?

by hrv1978 on Aug 22, 2010 5:05 PM EDT reply actions

There's no room for him

As I mentioned in the first comment, there are too many good players in the first 9-10 years of this era to be able to fit all of them in. I had to intentionally leave McGriff from consideration just so I could have a chance at getting a decent number of good players. Dave Winfield had a monster ‘92 and he’s bumped by Molitor. Mark Eichhorn pulled a 6.4 WAR as a setup man in 1986 and he didn’t make the team. No Ward, no Key, no Borders, no Clancy, no Alexander, no Carter, no Stottlemyre.

by Solanus on Aug 22, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions

It is a very difficult exercise to be sure, you handcuff yourself with your own rules.

Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...

by JohnnyG on Aug 22, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Henke is a must

Great list.

I’d probably put in Henke (1991), even if it means that Devon White is dropped – whom I must say was an awesome player. Henke is the definitive Jays closer, and he has to be there IMHO

I’d add Shannon Stewart (2001) to the OF and drop Escobar to make up for the White spot. Stewart was awesome during those years and Escobar really isn’t part of the Jays reliever lore.

by brotherk_13 on Aug 23, 2010 6:03 PM EDT reply actions

I agree. I too love me some Devo, but I think brotherk has a good idea here

There She Gooooooes!

by Rugged Rock on Aug 24, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not so sure about that

Stewart had a good few years, but Devo had a WAR of about double in his time here. He’s that much better a player. Henke of course is outstanding, but I wonder if there is a better place we can get him in there.

by Arakasi on Aug 26, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions

The Terminator deserves it more

Henke is the best Blue Jays closer / reliever ever. He’s the gold standard. He is the equivalent to Mariano Rivera for the Jays. He just has to be in there.

This isn’t about White vs. Stewart, it’s about Henke needing a spot.

If you look through the 1985 to 1992 era, I’d say the only player you could debate is Kelly Gruber being substituted out – but even then, who else would you put into the 3b spot? Plus I like Gruber as a player too, so I don’t know if that’s a slam dunk to keep White in and drop Gruber.

by brotherk_13 on Aug 27, 2010 1:07 PM EDT reply actions

The problem is the rules he set out for himself.

If you take Gruber out you have to move some things around, because now not only do you need another 3B, you need another player from 1988.

Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...

by JohnnyG on Aug 27, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions

It also shows the dearth of quality the Jays have had at 3rd. The Blue Jays have had some one year wonders there, but absolutely nothing in terms of sustained quality.

by siggian on Aug 27, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Scott Rolen for Gruber in a bid to elect Henke

Well, I was suggesting you put in Henke for Gruber (1988) . In which case, you need for find a 3b. I’d say the best alternative if you drop a reliever is to go with Scott Rolen to fill the 3b role in 2008 for which you’d have to drop Scott Downs from the reliever list.

by brotherk_13 on Aug 27, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions