So what amazes you more, Morrow's 1 hitter or Jose Molina's stolen base?
by Tom Dakers on Aug 8, 2010 5:53 PM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays Game Recaps
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A sweep against the Rays? A team that we have had more than our share of troubles against. And not just a sweep. Three spectacular games. First game we score 2 unearned runs and win 2-1. Yesterday J.P. Arencibia hits a home run on the first major league pitch he sees, then adds 3 more hits, including another homer. And then today.
I had decided to do other things today and miss the game. I'm out and then find out Brandon Morrow is pitching a no-hitter so watched the rest of the game at a bar. Too early in the day, out here, for beer but enjoyed a nice lunch while watching one of the best pitching performances I've ever seen. This has to rank right up there with Dennis Martinez throwing a perfect game with the Expos.
It is hard to believe. 17 strikeouts! Just two walks. One error and it wasn't a 'no-hitter' error, it was clearly an error. How many times were we told this spring that Morrow would never be a major league starter? I do think fans are funny, they say 'we need players with high upsides' but they aren't willing to give the high upside guys time to harness their talent. Some guys need a little longer and a little more help to get everything working. You think a team is going to trade a high upside player if he is a finished product?
I'll admit I likely would have taken Brandon after the hit. He did look like he was tiring. 137 pitches is a lot for any pitcher but it was good that Cito let him finish. And with an off day tomorrow, he gets some extra rest.
Aaron Hill made a great effort on that hit. He did his best, came so close. I feel bad for him, I'm sure he would have like that called an error, but even though he got the glove to it, there was no way you could call it a error.
As well as Morrow's performance, we had another once in a lifetime happening: Jose Molina stole a base. Jose Molina. Great to watch his teammates laughing and him with a big smile on his face.
That catch at the wall by Vernon Wells was as good as it gets too. If it wasn't a no hitter, I'm sure Vernon would have played that one off the wall. He earned a dislocated toe. He is to have it x-rayed again tomorrow, hopefully it won't cost him any missed time.
Offensively, we didn't do all that much, just 5 hits and 5 walks on the day. We had chances to score but only needed the one run Vernon brought home with a bloop single.
Jay of the Day? There is a tough one. Morrow has a .762 WPA, so let's give it to him. I'm also giving one to Vernon (.065) and that catch at the wall. Morrow didn't need a lot of great plays behind him, since he struck out 17, there wasn't much for the fielders to do, but Vernon made the play when he needed it.
It is too bad he didn't get the no-hitter but really it was far better than just a no-hitter. He was just 1 k shy of the team record of Roger Clemens (which should come with an asterisk anyway). He tied for the fourth best game score since the lively ball era started in 1920. The guys with better game scores? Kerry Wood (105), Nolan Ryan (101, against our Jays) and Sandy Koufax (101). Pretty good company.
For Morrow, it was his first complete game and his first shutout. And he is just 26, he'll have more days like this. I'm bet the Mariners are loving that trade right now. Over on Twitter, 'delta-vee' suggested we need a better adjective than Doctasic. Morrowific works better for today.
Great job Brandon. That was amazing.
Quote from Aaron Hill:
I did everything I could and couldn't come up with it. I wish I could get an error or something for it.
Tomorrow is an off day then we host the Red Sox for 3, bring it on.
Is there anything better than being a Blue Jay fan?
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I'm such a jinx
When I notice the Jays get up usually I stop checking online because I’m horrible at jinxing. Came back online today to check and it was the 8th. Should have waited 20 minutes longer. Should just track my stats at this point.
Great day by Morrow. Much wishes of happiness and healthiness to his right arm. Care much more about the win, the shutout, his first CG and the K’s then the no hitter. One can make the argument that this one was on the top 10 starts of all time. Awesome performance.
If you click on the Brandon Morrow picture you can view other pictures from the game, including Morrow tipping his hat to the crowd and getting doused in a Gatorade shower
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
No worries, Was just letting people know
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Yeah I think that's one of the cool things we have that people likely don't know about
that they can browse through pictures from each game.
More from column A than column B
And I agree with you about the 18 that Roger struck out.
For those wondering… In the 1st half of 1998, Clemens was mediocre after a pitching triple crown in the (Screw you Duquette) 97 season. Then suddenly, he started pouring it on and became the Roger of 97,
It wasn’t till 08 when it was (surprise) noted that Roger’s sudden turn around happened exactly when Roger started Roiding.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Aug 8, 2010 6:08 PM EDT reply actions
So Clemens' awesome '97
was strictly due to his “screw you, Duquette”, mentality, which disappeared by April ’98?
-- Gravity is not just the law, it's also a good idea
I don't know if Clemens was on PED in 97
He was certainly motivated to stick it to Duquette.
But it’s been much confirmed by his ex-trainer that he started using it after he lost that edge in 98. His record in 98 was inconsistent till FLA and then after a month (and more inconsistent starts) he went on a tear winning 14 games.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Aug 8, 2010 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Kudos to the Jays
To send out an already-injured player to douse Morrow. No need to take unnecessary risks!
This was a great game.
Not just for Brandon (the pitch count was worrying in particular), but also for the team. It’s weird that we didn’t score more than one run. Five walks indicate fantastic plate discipline.
The defense was there when it needed to be, and Hill’s dive in the 9th was almost the definition of spectacular. Watching the replay, he actually got the ball right in the heel of the glove, and it hit off his palm. If anything, he was too on top of the ball. An inch behind it and the ball dives into the webbing, game over.
Does the loss of the no-no hurt? Yeah. But no one can look at this game and conclude that Morrow was anything less than dominant. He’ll get a no-no eventually.
Fun Fact
The “Rocket” cannot achieve lift off in bed. Just wanted to throw that out there.
HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!
You know, I had a feeling that if any player was going to break up Morrow’s no hitter bid, it was Longoria. Unfortunately he happened to fall right into that 3rd out spot that Morrow needed. My heart sank when Hill couldn’t come up with the ball, but I can’t blame Hill because it would have required a spectacular play to get the out there. Hope to see more great things to come from Morrow.
not litsch probably
To Infinity. And BEYOND!!!
by YunelTheLazyLatino on Aug 8, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Litsch is a wildcard right now, Dusty could make a come back as well
by blueandwhite31 on Aug 8, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope it isn't
but thats asking too much from a #5 to put up #3 starter numbers.
HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!
Free agent or Drabek or Scrabble
I am hoping for a Free Agent, number 3 or 4 type guy. I would settle for Scrabble. I want to see Drabek in AAA for one full year.
Cliff Lee!
They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.
I don’t see why we’d need a free agent starting pitcher with all the arms we’ve got. Next year should still be about an in-house youth movement and trying our young guys out.
Say Marcum, Romero, Morrow and Cecil are our presumed foursome. That still leaves Rzep, Litsch, McGowan, Mills, Ray, Drabek and Stewart as possibilities, if not for opening day, then at some point over the course of the season.
I’d say take a flyer on some guys via the rule 5, minor league free agent, etc, to throw some more arms in the mix if needed, but don’t see us going out for a big fish in the offseason.
fair enough
But my confidence in McGowan’s health is nill, and my confidence in Litsch and Mills abilities isn’t too high either. I was more looking for a stop gap until Drabek and Stewart are ready. If something falls in our lap, then good times.
Yeah, McGowan’s a long shot, just threw him in there as such. But I’d think between Rzep, Litsch, Mills and Ray, you ought to have some decent options for that fifth spot come opening day, with Drabek and Stewart maybe ready to join the mix if not from day one then at some point during the season.
That said, this assumes everything’s hunky dory with first four, etc. So you’re right, we might end up a little stretched, if there are any injuries and/or too many guys not being effective. In that sense, not a bad idea to get a few other guys into the mix, I just don’t want to see the team get a stop-gap that blocks the path of the other guys.
In other words, I’d rather have an open door at the fifth spot so we can see what our young guys can do, then get a placeholder that doesn’t really tell us anything about the future. But if AA can swing another Morrow-type move or something at a reasonable price for another young, controllable arm with good upside, then sure why not.
Ok
I think we are in agreement, I just didn’t expression my thought well enough. I don’t want the old Victor Zambrano type signing.
However I would love to see a SP signing in the John Buck/Alex Gonzalex mold that is a competent 3 or 4 guy. With the idea that they are just holding the fort for Drabek, Stewart, Zep (not sold on the other options). I really think the other guys mentioned are quadruple A types. Great guys that can move up and down until they are out of options.
I agree
Keep the pitching in house. The Jays aren’t ready to contend next year, although they should be fun to watch yet again. Any money they would spend on free agents, keep in the coffers, and when we are ready, we can go out and get an impact arm/bat that could help put us over the top.
All this buttoning and unbuttoning
jays aren't ready to contend next year?
Why not. Call me the ever optimist, but they’re pretty close to contending now. They have some good pieces in place now, and this month alone should give them an idea of where they stand. I do agree with you about the free agents.
Hey,
I think they’ll be exciting next year, I think they’ll challenge for a part of the year, but I’m not sure they’re ready to take over the division quite yet.
I don’t expect the same from Bautista. Then again I hope for more from Hill and Lind.
I feel there chances are going to be three or four years from now, when they can get Echevaria (sorry on the spelling) up, and they can get Gose leading off, and have some experience in the rotation as these young guys continue to grow. I hope to see D’Arnaud behind the plate, and JPA on first, maybe third.
That’ll be a team!
Gose CF
Hill 3B
Snider LF
Lind DH
Wells RF
JPA 1b
Echevaria 2b
Escobar SS
D’Arnaud C
Morrow
Romero
Marcum
Cecil
Drabek
All this buttoning and unbuttoning
For the record
After looking at it, that’s could be pretty far off on the batting order. Escobar could be hitting a whole lot higher (2nd)
All this buttoning and unbuttoning
what amazes me is the team we have become in such a short period of time...
This weekend provided us Jays fans with a glimpse of what the future holds for our dear team. Each game was a great story in its own right and what we saw was an epic trilogy we have not seen in a long time.
I also noticed the level of team unity amongst the guys. They seem looser and more relaxed. They are laughing more and are having fun. The level of confidence is at an all-time high and I hope they can keep their swagger for the final 2 months of the season.
Bring on the Red Sox and Go Jays Go!
Today is my birthday
And on the way to the ballpark we were joking how awesome it would be to see Morrow throw a no-hitter. I joked I’d be happy with a 1 hit shut-out….man…what a day.
When it got to the ninth inning that ballpark was electric. My heart was pounding a mile a minute.
I have been to a lot of ball games over the last 20 years but nothing compares to what I experienced today.
To top it all off, Morrow is on my fantasy team :D
his slider was a weapon with a fatality rate high enough that it could be classified as a threat to civilization.
^From Fangraphs.
Great analogy. His offspeed stuff has really come a long way.
HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!
when i watched the highlights it seemed that 90% of third strikes
were offspeed. and lethal
by upstate jay fan on Aug 8, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Just got back from Toronto. The greatest event I have witnessed in my life. The crowd, not sure how many, was into it almost instantly. I knew it was going to be special after he struck out the side in the first. I’d also like to point out Escobar’s wheels in getting from first to third on a ground out. Even caught his team off guard. Most were on their feet from the final out in the 7th on. When Molina stole second it wasn’t just the team that laughed, it was the entire stadium. I’ve never witnessed a better atmosphere. When Cito walked out in the 9th every single person was chanting out MORROW!! MORROW!! it drowned out the music.
As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
Jealous!
Allow me to contribute, albeit late: MORROW! MORROW! MORROW!
You picked a good player to stick with through a trade, that`s for sure.
As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
Morrow could have been a 6+ ERA guy worth 0.5 WAR and I'd stick with him.
He’s great, which is nice, but my love for him as a player is not entirely rational.
it was the most amazing game i've seen EVER
i missed he first two innings unfortunately
i was on my feet in front of the TV from the eighth inning
such an amazing game to watch, just amazing
i’m betting he’ll throw a perfect game soon enough
To Infinity. And BEYOND!!!
by YunelTheLazyLatino on Aug 8, 2010 7:43 PM EDT reply actions
I remember when the trade was made.
There were people on different sites who compared his early career path to Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson..incredible arm with some control problems..others of course compared him to A.J. I think today was a huge leap down the Nolan Ryan type career path. Most dominate performance I can remember watching. Best regular season weekend ever..there is no debate in my mind..team defining series.
Lets give some props to vernon as well, he had the only rbi of the game and made that awesome catch in the 6th
The psychology of these kinds of games
Didn’t get to see it, but sounds like an awesome game. If anyone still had doubts, Morrow is the real deal.
Reading Jordan Bastian’s MLB wrap on the game, a question arose for me.
It was clear right from the beginning on Sunday afternoon that Blue Jays pitcher Brandon Morrow might be on the verge of something special against the Rays.
Ben Zobrist. Carl Crawford. Evan Longoria. Each struck out swinging on an array of filthy pitches in the first inning, heading back to the dugout looking overmatched and downright baffled. As Morrow’s teammates watched that early display of dominance, it was hard for them not to get excited.
“When he struck out those three guys,” Blue Jays first baseman Lyle Overbay said, “it was like, ‘Well, I guess we’re just going to hang out and enjoy the game.’”
Haven’t researched it, but just anecdotally it seems to me that these kinds of pitching gems are often accompanied by little run support. Now often they’re pitching duels between the starters, though not always.
Take this game, there’s not a word in Bastian’s story about the quality of the four Rays pitchers today who held the Jays to just one run. As for the Rays MLB wrap, it mentions their starter, but with no extraordinary praise and nothing about the relievers. Didn’t see the game, so can’t say how great they’re stuff was or wasn’t.
But I find it interesting that everyone quoted in the story – on the Jays and Rays sides – both say how obvious it was that Morrow was going to be dominant. Even Evan Longoria said that it was one of those days where the hitters almost throw up the white flag.
“If anyone deserved a no-hitter it was him today,” said Longoria of Morrow. “I mean, it really was one of those days you go up to the plate and really feel like, and I hate to say it, ‘This guy has been making his pitches all day. What chance do we have right now?’”
Now my natural inclination nevertheless would be to think that as as a result the opposing pitchers just turn it up that much more psychologically. But I find Lyle Overbay’s quote interesting about feeling from the beginning like it was a day to “hang out and enjoy”. I’m sure he didn’t mean it literally, but it raises the question of whether psychologically hitters get so caught up in what their pitcher is doing that they lose focus on their end and don’t put up much of an offense. Not arguing this is the case, just wondering about the possibility.
Overbay
Im thinking his comment referred to defense. As in Morrow was just going to strike everybody else and the Defense was just going to be out there hanging out
Ah, yes, that makes total sense after seeing Morrow strike out the side to start the game. Hadn’t thought of that, thanks that must be what he was talking about.
I still wonder though about these type games often being so low scoring. The logical answer to me is still that the opposing pitchers rise to the occasion, although the Rays guys don’t seem to have got much credit today in what I read for their combined one-run game.
Another dynamic I hadn’t mentioned before was with the guy throwing the no-hitter. It’s also possible that tight games help focus the pitcher to keep the no-hitter going. Although you gotta have the stuff anyway, as seems like Morrow had it right from the gate.
I had to leave after the 5th
But Sonnanstine was obviously effective. But didn’t look as good as Morrow. Sonnanstine does deserve praise.
However I do agree with you that subconsiously I think close games will effect the pitcher’s thought process. B/c the game was close, Morrow had to make every pitch and apparently he did.
Some interesting historical notes
The other things that interested me reading the MLB wraps were a few points of history.
From the Blue Jays side:
Morrow became the seventh Jays pitcher to lose a no-hitter in the ninth inning and the third to do so with two outs in the final frame. Dave Stieb — owner of Toronto’s lone no-hitter on Sept. 4, 1990, against Cleveland — lost no-hitters with two outs in the ninth in back-to-back starts in ’88 and had a perfect game bid ended in ’89. Roy Halladay lost a no-hitter with two outs in the ninth against the Tigers in ’98 in his second career start.
From the Rays side, they were almost the first team in history to be no-hit three times in a season, and would have marked the fourth no-hitter against them in the past 13 months.
Rays manager Joe Maddon wears his knee-high baseball socks for a reason — a tribute to the late Pants Rowland, manager of the 1917 White Sox.
While the two managed nearly a century apart, and the complexion of the game has changed drastically since, the two share one common bond — they managed the only two teams to be no-hit twice in one season.
Morrow was locked in all afternoon for the Jays, allowing only four baserunners — one hit, two walks, and one error — while racking up a career-high 17 strikeouts. He became almost the fourth pitcher over the past 13 months to no-hit the Rays — Mark Buehrle, Dallas Braden and Edwin Jackson being the previous three to accomplish the feat. The Rays also had one no-hitter of their own this season, coming at the hands of Matt Garza on July 26 against the Tigers.
I remember
watching that Halladay start. So random, my brother and I argued on how good he would be after that start.
After this weekend...
Stats and graphs aside, wasn’t it great to just watch ballgames and feel as though the Jay’s were almost unbeatable again. I haven’t felt like this about our team in a long time.
Catch the Taste
reply fail
To Infinity. And BEYOND!!!
by YunelTheLazyLatino on Aug 8, 2010 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Greatest performance I've ever seen
great to share it with some of you here in the game thread. I’m still saddened he didn’t get it but I’ll always remember this game nonetheless
Excuse me, do these effectively hide my thunder?
Why Blue Jays, Why?
Everytime I am completely unable to watch a game you go out and do something like this?!?! Yesterday AND today? Please for once I’d like to be a part of this.
But mostly I’m glad for Morrow, always knew he had this kind of stuff, glad he put it together.
I just watched the hilight.
Hill makes that play over 50% of the time…too bad he didn’t today.
by craig in calgary on Aug 8, 2010 10:23 PM EDT reply actions
just thinking the same thing
it would have still been close at first with Hill throwing from his knees to boot.
To answer the question in the title...
I figured Morrow always had this kind of a game in him…so I’m going to go with Joslow Molina’s SB.
I'm thinking that when the Leafs win the Cup, I'll lose my drinking problem.
by leafsfan4life94 on Aug 8, 2010 11:07 PM EDT reply actions
Have to disagree
Due to 17 strikeouts.
As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
Have to agree to disagree
Due to it being Molina. :) You are correct though, what Morrow accomplished was indeed amazing.
I'm thinking that when the Leafs win the Cup, I'll lose my drinking problem.
by leafsfan4life94 on Aug 9, 2010 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
if his brother can hit a triple
a SB is not too suprising
by upstate jay fan on Aug 9, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
he has 10 in his career
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Dave Stieb: "It will haunt you"
Dave Stieb, who knows a thing or two about losing no-hitters with two outs in the bottom of the ninth, comments on Morrow’s game in the Star.
"You realize it was a good game. You won, which you set to do in the beginning. You forget it and relish the win, but it will haunt you. I think of mine still to this day," said Stieb, a former all-star Jay who twice had no-hitters broken up with two outs and two strikes in the bottom of the ninth.
Still remember Stieb’s near-no-hitters broken up with two outs in the ninth in 1988 in back-to-back games no less! According to the National Post, he also lost another one in the ninth inning in 1985 and another with two outs in the ninth in 1989, a near perfect game this time, according to the Biographical Dictionary of American Sports.
I believe the correct response is
“its 12’o’clock somewhere”
I was at the game today and it was...
…without any doubt the greatest game I’ve ever seen live, Morrow was absolutely fantastic. The atmosphere after the 5th inning was practically akin to that of a playoff match. I don’t know what else to say other than the fact that Morrow was bloody amazing and how much I wish Hill came up with that ball. Still, a one hitter with 17 strikeouts is (once again) the greatest thing I’ve witnessed live in baseball.
On another note, Molina’s stolen base was almost surreal to witness. At first I thought I had to be missing something at first, and that it couldn’t possibly have been a legitimate stolen base by Molina. I think the laughter that took place in the dugout afterwards expains everything the crowd was feeling. It was simply great.
New member here
I’m a bit of a Jays addict and have been stalking this board for a year now and figured I may as well join the community.
I didn’t watch the game, but just caught the replay of all strikeouts on youtube. Impressive! What a weekend to be a Jays fan!
After seeing the one hit that Hill nearly got to, I don’t think he would have made that play.
welcome aboard!
stop by anytime! we’re generally pretty friendly
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Saturday, 17 Runs
Sunday, 17 Strikeouts
Tuesday? 17 Stolen Bases.
You heard it here first
There She Gooooooes!
How about 17 walks from the lineup since they got to continue the pattern
Oh the shame for Boston
I wasn't there for this one...
…and the most exciting game that i ever went to was the Wells 3HR Glaus 2HR win over the bosox a few years back, but i’d bet that this was a lot more exciting.
So, I know this will be unpopular, but can we please see a moritorium on this ‘Clarence’, ‘The Manager’ nonsense? The entire point of this site was about how stupid and moronic and hidebound and blindly loyal to his journeyman Cito Gaston was before Brandon Morrow took a no-hitter into the ninth. It worked. Maybe Cito knows a thing or two about baseball and we can dial back the poisonous vitrolic for a bit? Right now, he’s the bloody Manager of the Year without question. Can we maybe factor this in the next time we trash him?
Cito's decision to leave Morrow in come the ninth inning was out of his hands.
Let’s not give him credit for tradition, history and circumstance.
Yes, let’s not give him credit for anything in the game we think we can explain otherwise. It makes us seem so much more knowledgeable. The pre-game was spent destroying him for not starting JPA, without any thought to considering the battery of Morrow/Molina was an important dynamic.
Whatever. He’s an idiot who’s there to sell tickets for the rubes, right?
Hardly.
Yesterday, people were plugging JPA in at DH with Lind at 1B with Molina still behind the plate. The issue with not playing Arencibia is entirely about getting him PAs at the big league level. And it is a valid concern that if Mo is not here next year, Morrow is not going to have his personal catcher.
Look, I’m in Seattle; I followed Morrow over here. You know what personal catchers do? They stick Felix Hernandez, one of the greatest starters in baseball, with a talentless hack named Rob Johnson. I love Morrow, but he is making the kind of money he is, playing the game he is, as a professional. And professionally, he has to deal with changing circumstances, including new catchers.
Secondly, baseball events do not happen in isolation. We have no idea how a JPA start at C would have affected this game. You are evaluating the decision in hindsight, which is not how you perform analysis on reasoned decisions. You cannot go into the future, see the result, and then make a decision. You make a decision based on what will, at the given time, produce the most desirable outcome.
We can reasonably criticize Cito’s decision making based on information we have available. Now, it is certainly true that as a manager, Cito has certain knowledge that we do not. So it is entirely plausible that our information, with which we were evaluating the decision, is incomplete. However, with the information we had available, and the requisite goals—namely, developing JPA, getting Morrow comfortable with a new catcher—members had a different opinion.
I have no issue with Cito starting Molina. I really don’t. But that is not what I was addressing, and you need to look beyond the one game situation and its result. It’s a myopic point of view.
I am happy for Brandon. Extremely happy. Like this happy.
Your the first one to bring up Clarence or the manager…. Usually the other blogs around the blogosphere have been using those but not so much here. Thank though.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
In fact, by doing a quick search no one has used Clarence since June 30th on the site, and that was in a comment.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
i think making fun of his name is disrespectful
He has done too much in baseball for that. On the flip say we get folks that think we shouldn’t be allowed to disagree with him. That is totally wrong too.
by Tom Dakers on Aug 9, 2010 9:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
On the flip say we get folks that think we shouldn’t be allowed to disagree with him.
I think the problem is far too often, the disagreements begin with the assumption that the reasoning behind his decisions are based on bias as opposed to circumstance. Let’s look at the lead-in to the game thread.
Yet Cito ignores this and goes about his merry way. Complete Oblivious to everything else except what is going on in his head. Morrow has to start pitching with someone else! There is a chance that Molina is not back next year? And then what happens? I know Cito would spout off some great nonsense about losing to win 2 later, I am sick of that crap answer, you try to win every game that’s your job as manager. And by not using Snider and JPA and using much lighter hitting replacements in their place you are not maximizing your chances. Yes I know Wise and Molina probably offer better defensive options but does that really offset it that much?
If you want to disagree with the decision to play Wise and Molina, that’s fine. However, if the point is that you field the team with the best chance to win, there’s a completely logical methodology to Gaston’s lineup; Wise is a superiour defensive option, Morrow’s had great success with Molina catching; against the Rays, defense is especially key since this is a team that runs like a mother. But the assumption put foward and almost without challenge was that Cito wasn’t interested in putting out the best team to win and wasn’t doing so because he’s biased. And then Morrow keeps a no-no hitter going into the ninth.
No one has ever said that we should never disagree with the manager. But the disagreements that are based on the perception of what Gaston is or thinks are nonsense. It’s the classic ‘did you know he doesn’t even like baseball’ kind of thinking that gets derided when applied to anyone else.
hmmmm that doesn't look like me.
but this is a blog you understand. People are allowed opinions and allowed to complain or rant if they like.
I’m easy….if people don’t want to see him criticized there are team run sites that don’t say a word about him. Occasionally here, we are going to have rants. They don’t happen as much as some of the sites and I won’t call him names or belittle his name. I have no clue at all why Travis Snider isn’t starting more. I figured a 7 man rotation with each guy having a day off a week, but it hasn’t been that way. Wise should never start over Snider.
but this is a blog you understand. People are allowed opinions and allowed to complain or rant if they like.
I wasn’t saying ‘Tom, this is what you said’. I pulled the example as to the kind of arguments used which I disagree with the basis of. My apologies if that wasn’t clear.
And for further clarity, no one is trying to stop the ranting. But in the same way that saying ‘Frasor is no good and should be DFA’d’ will draw disagreements as to why the poster is wrong and shouldn’t make said comment, I’m going to challenge people who base their criticism of Gaston on what they perceive are his motives, or who employ double-standards in their criticism.
Tom, you rant about his decisions
Cito might take that sort of thing personally in the heat of the moment and people are notoriously bad about blurring the line between attacking the decision or the statement and attacking the person, but at the end of the day that’s fundamentally different from the sort of comments you see about him around the blogosphere. You respect Cito, which is why some of his moves drive you crazy. I have my most vehement arguments with my mom and her older brother, two of the people I love and respect most in the world, because it stings that much more when they don’t see things my way
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
i think you have it hugo
Cito, to me, has improved a lot from the old days. I think he handles pitchers much better and he is less reluctant to us young players. I complain about his use of Snider, but it is much better than how he treated Degado and Green.
I really think he should get manager of the year votes. Who could have thought that this tea$ would be above .500? The guy saw the team he had and figured the best way to win with them. Few managers would do that. Buck martinez, when he was manager, tried to get players doing what they couldn’t because he thought there was one way to win.
by Tom Dakers on Aug 9, 2010 9:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i think you have it hugo
Cito, to me, has improved a lot from the old days. I think he handles pitchers much better and he is less reluctant to us young players. I complain about his use of Snider, but it is much better than how he treated Degado and Green.
I really think he should get manager of the year votes. Who could have thought that this tea$ would be above .500? The guy saw the team he had and figured the best way to win with them. Few managers would do that. Buck martinez, when he was manager, tried to get players doing what they couldn’t because he thought there was one way to win.
by Tom Dakers on Aug 9, 2010 9:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
even handed site
I think this is one of the most even handed sites around. The 3 guys in charge go out of their way to point out the good, not just the bad, and calm the waters when a player is going through a rough stretch and some posters are calling for his head. I could never understand, how it would improve your team to boo certain players at home. We only have to compare the performance of Wells at home and away last year.
I am in Dexfarkin’s corner when it comes to Cito. When he does something that, to me, seems like the wrong move, I try to see his reasons. There are always potential pluses and minuses to every possible idea or action. Where Cito is concerned, too often people only dwell on the possible minuses. I would like to see both sides discussed more, as we do with players.
I think we forget many of these athletes are very superstitious. Some, if they are on a hitting or winning streak, don’t shave, some wear the same T-shirt under their uniform game after game, some point upward when they get a hit, most never step on a foul line. If a player had to take a detour to the park one day and had a great game, I am willing to bet, he would go that way to the park everyday there after until he got in a slump. Who knows how a player who is doing well hitting in the number 2 spot in the lineup would react if he was asked to leadoff? A great man, who had a way with words, said “Baseball is 90% mental and the other half is physical.” Henry Ford once said, “Think you can or think you can’t, either way you will be correct.”
Certainly Cito takes a psychological-based approach to managing. Maybe that is the way of the future, who knows? I remember a certain team started out with 12 wins and 24 loses under a manager who was a good at making stratistical decisions – like a chess master moving pieces around a chess board. In 1989, after Jimy was fired and Cito came on board with his psychological approach, the team went on to win the AL East pennant, despite that terrible start.
I too question many of Cito’s actions. All I am advocating is that we try to view both sides of the agrument. Also, Tom, I apreciate and respect all your views and thoughts and when I see you are the author of a post, I know it will be well thoughtout and even handed; however, I think you are little too “thin skinned” on this Cito issue. No one is accusing you or this site, unlike some posters on other sites, as being extremely anti Cito. If anything, this site is even handed and a place one can go and post without being personally attacked for daring to post a view that others disagree with.
by leonard euler on Aug 10, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I get the Molina thing, I just think having a personal catcher on a one year deal that is just as likely to leave as he is to stay is a dangerous move, Shouldn’t Morrow get used to the rest of the staff?
And you can’t reasonably expect me to not get angry when Wise is our starting LF over Snider? Snider is not that bad of a defender, of course Wise is better, then use him as a late inning replacement. I posted it in the game thread but in the 9 games since he has been back on the 25man Snider has started 5.
That is not good enough.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
I don't think it is dangerous
Morrow has Spring Training next year to work with Buck, JPA, Molina or whoever we have behind the plate.
I like this idea
Let Morrow continue to improve his game. He takes advantage this year of the Molina experience and makes himself a better pitcher, then next year in the spring training he works on applying his abilities with another catcher.
What I can’t stand is when an experienced pitcher demands a personal catcher. The experienced pitchers should be able to pitch to anybody, and allow the manager to put forward as strong as possible a batting order.
This being said, a lot of the time managers should be able to accomodate the request, and work the batting order out. But sometimes against a top of the line starter, you might feel you really need the better hitting catcher.
All this buttoning and unbuttoning
Well, I think that getting actually angry over the lineup is a bit much, but no, I don’t disagree with questioning the decision to start Wise over Snider. That wasn’t the point. It was the ‘oblivious’ point that I challenged. Gaston went with the strongest defensive outfield he could. There’s a clear and rational decision there, with the Manager putting forward what he best feels will win the game.
Does that make more sense? I’m not trying to force people to silently content themselves with Cito’s decisions, because I certainly don’t. I’m just saying that the common assertation about his decisions making no sense/are based solely on bias isn’t right. That’s very different from saying that his decisions are what I feel are the correct ones.
Exactly
I often see the reasons for why Cito constructs a lineup in a certain way (Millar excepted), and while I disagree with his rationale at times, I can at least follow the train of his thought.
I’ll admit that I wanted Cito gone after last season’s train wreck. In hindsight, I was wrong. Strategically, this season has been one of the best he’s ever had as a coach or manager. He quickly identified the style of game this team needed to play and got the players to buy into it as well. (In spring training, he said he had a team of sluggers and I scoffed. I was wrong.) Tactically, he still drives me nuts from time to time with his daily lineup choices. That’s Cito though.
Molina I would give you
Not sure what the point of starting Wise as much when Lewis and Snider are on the bench.
Wise is right now a defensive or PR. Unfortunately for Wise he is the 5th OF and most teams (I think) only go with 4.
Cito does have his moments, you are right.
Alot of his “non moves” turn out to be the right moves, and that does get recognized from time to time. HOWEVER for every good move he makes (or doesn’t make) he makes several rediculous moves (play Snider once a week, pitch tallet in back-to-back tie games with a rested bullpen)
by craig in calgary on Aug 9, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s not about whether Cito has good moments or not. He makes what I consider some pretty bone-headed decisions as a manager, and I’m very glad this will be his last year in that role with the Jays. I simply don’t like a lot of the assumptions that come with a lot of the criticism; as if his reasoning is always completely out to lunch and there’s no possible logic to his moves beyond his crazy out of touch Cito logic.
What's the deal with the whole Clarence or The Manager thing?
I’m no doubt missing something, but how is this disrespectful? Isn’t his given name Clarence and isn’t he the manager? Is it because it shows indifference towards him as a part of this team.
It started with Drew from Ghost runner on first.
He started referring to him by Clarence and “The manger” instead of by Cito. His rationale was it was easier to be angry at someone with the name Clarence as opposed to Cito.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Calling Cito by his given name is not as disrespectful as calling Rzepczynski “Scrabble”, on the grand scale of things.
Yeah but calling Clarence isn’t a nickname. Its only used around the blogosphere when people want to bring Cito down or insult one of his decisions.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
bottom line
there are plenty of Jays sites you can go if you want to read and participate in pure unadulterated ad hominem Cito-bashing, just like there used to be plenty of sites to go to if you wanted the same of Ricciardi. I was no Ricciardi fanboy and Cito’s not my favourite manager, but this isn’t the place to go for that sort of thing. First, I reserve my hatred for true lowlifes of the world (and Cito’s about as far from that as you can imagine), and second, we just think there are much more interesting things to talk about.
Now picking apart his decisions on the other hand…
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
that's not true
i’ll use “Clarence” or “Cito” but am generally happy with the way he has handled the Jays this year. I’ll complain about things here and there, but on the balance, I think Clarence has done a respectable job.
I agree with you on the merits
but not on your process concern. Heck, I suggested making Molina Morrow’s personal catcher by his first start with Molina behind the dish (you can go back to the game thread if you like – it was not a well-received suggestion). My reasoning was not that Morrow needed a personal catcher, but that he was the biggest “project” in terms of pitching this season, he had the biggest upside and the furthest to go with the most uncertainty, and it was worth investing whatever would help him be more comfortable and familiar on the mound and give him the tiniest, tiniest edge.
But I don’t think Johnny’s post was out of line – it’s a legitimate concern that Arencibia isn’t going to get the playing time we’re hoping to see what he can do. I didn’t happen to agree with it but I didn’t find it disrespectful at all. In fact, I think Cito would agree – he WAS oblivious, for all intents and purposes, to the fan reception to Arencibia in his first game. That sort of thing just doesn’t enter into Cito’s calculus. I haven’t been thrilled with the playing time Snider has been getting and I think that heightens the sensitivity to the Arencibia thing. That said, I think Cito always planned for it to go this way – Arencibia and Molina had to split the night game-day game combo and then Molina was always going to catch Morrow’s start against the Rays. I’m guessing Arencibia gets more of the time going forward.
FWIW, I think Molina will be back next season. Buck will be given the Jays blessing to seek his fortune as a starter somewhere else, and Molina will be brought back to mentor Arencibia and continue to work with the young pitchers. The Molinas know catching, Jose is a great guy, I happen to know personally (long story), and they love Toronto.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
But isn't that exciting
Why wouldn’t we watnt Molina here. I think that would be great for the Jays. JPA/Molina split sound good to me. That said, we would be expecting AS caliber play from JPA to make up fo r Buck’s departure.
I agree with you on the merits but not on your process concern.
No one would ever guess that you’re a lawyer… grin
I’d argue that Johnny’s assertation about his obliviousness, in context, was more focused on playing different players when other options would give the Jays a better chance to win, and your approach is that Cito disregarded the popular choice to give the Jays a better chance to win. And while I disagree with Johnny in terms of the value of the defense overriding the offensive advantage (because I’ve always been a ‘defense first’ guy), I totally understand his point of view and can’t fault him for it.
To be fair I did mean in the context of the fan hype and the fan perception that he is the better choice.
However I know re-reading it. I wrote it very poorly and my anger with the situation came through. So it definitely reads as if Im calling Cito a clueless and senile manager.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
I apologize then, because I took it the other way, and granted, this was the last stop on my cycle of blogs and I certainly reacted in part based on comments on other blogs on top of the post.
Well as mentioned I wrote it poorly and having read it I would probably have taken it as you did. So yeah.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Probably just as amazing
Was seeing Escobar go first to third on a ground out
-- Gravity is not just the law, it's also a good idea
did I just read Molina stole a base?
That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
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by bestbostonsports on Aug 9, 2010 10:14 AM EDT reply actions
Optimism
Am I the only one that senses a great deal of optiimism surrounding this team? Being, of course a Blue Jay fan, I’m very skeptical.. and trying not to get too caught up in it. But, could we actually, just maybe, kinda, sorta, make the playoffs in the next couple of years? It sure is exciting.
yeah i think could make the playoff in the next two or three years
At very least it should be interesting
by Tom Dakers on Aug 9, 2010 10:44 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Official Scorer
Doesn’t the home team scorer generally rule that an error by Hill in that sort of situation? Especially since he got his glove on it?
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
If the Blue Jays were facing a no hitter and the exact same play took place
Do you think the Blue Jays would be happy if it was scored an error?
Also! Hill would’ve had to make a highlight reel play to get Longoria out. There’s no way anyone would give an error for that, considering the effort Hill put into getting his glove on it. It was just a well placed hit by Longoria and some bad luck on Morrow’s part.
I think most clubs respect the no-no, and I guess my suggestion does cheapen it. I was just a wee bit surprised, that is all.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
even if Hill didn't boop the ball, he still would have had to throw a bullet sitting down to get Longoria
Onions Baby Onions
Looking at the replay
Longoria wasn’t even in the picture yet, I think Hill would have gotten him by a full step.
I guess we’ll never know though. Too bad, great game.
All this buttoning and unbuttoning
There is some ground they give for errors during a no-hitter, but that one would have been a hard sell. That was a hit off the bat.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
You can't have an error
When you leave your feet for a ball. Isn’t that the old baseball adage? Just like you can’t have an error turning two because you can never assume a double play?
All this buttoning and unbuttoning
I don't know about the leaving the feet, but the double play is covered here:
The Major League Official Baseball Rules states the following in Rule 10.14©:
No error shall be charged against any fielder when he makes a wild throw in attempting to complete a double play or triple play, unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base he would have reached had the throw not been wild. NOTE: When a fielder muffs a thrown ball which, if held, would have completed a double play or triple play, charge an error to the fielder who drops the ball and credit an assist to the fielder who made the throw.
"Don't tell me it's impossible. Be honest and tell me you can't do it. Tell me you don't know how."
this is more or less true
you’d never give someone an error on a diving stop.
though if you trip and fall you still leave your feet
I guess I’d slightly caveat it and say that if you leave your feet of your own volition you can’t get an error, but pretty sure that’s what Marttisdad meant anyway
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Notice how
Notice how Pat and Sam didn’t mention the fact that he had a no hitter going as to not jinx it? Well, then along comes Jamie Campbell and decides to point out the fact that he was throwing it. I don’t mean to get superstitious, you just need someone to blame. Although 1 hit and 17 strikeouts is impressive. Many people have called it the finest pitching performance of the year. And yes, that means finer than what Jimenez, Braden,Halladay, Garza, Jackson and Galaragga all did. Yes Morrow didn’t get it and yes both Halladay and Braden and technically Armando all achieved perfection, but none of those guys struck out 17. And for Morrow to regain composure to strike out the last batter after i was broken up showed even more how impressive it was.
Jackson still gets the most improbable award
8 walk no hitter, what were the chances?
Isn’t a 17K performance harder to come by than a no hitter?
In my opinion, his K performance should be recognized and if he happened to get a no hitter in the process, then that would be a nice bonus.
And it was clearly a hit.
There have been over 260 no-hitters in MLB history
There have been only 24 times where a pitcher has thrown 18 or more strikeouts. I don’t know how many have 17 Ks, but I can’t imagine it’s such that it would make a 17+ K game less rare than a no-no.
"Don't tell me it's impossible. Be honest and tell me you can't do it. Tell me you don't know how."
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