Is this a win now batter order or a play for the future batting order?
by Tom Dakers on Sep 8, 2010 5:05 PM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays News
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PrintTonight's batting order:
McCoy LF
Escobar SS
Bautista RF
Wells CF
Lind 1B
Hill 2B
Buck DH
McDonald 3B
Molina C
No Travis. Two catchers in the game, neither one of them Arencibia. Mac at 3rd. At least Lind gets a game at first.
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Win Now
Win Later
Get me the scotch.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
by JohnnyG on Sep 8, 2010 5:13 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Get me the scotch
Some has to explain to me how McCoy leading off would make for a winning lineup at AA. Somehow I think if they brought Tony Fernandez out of retirement he’s be a better hitter with a longer future (although his defense is probably no longer as good).
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Sep 8, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Rec'd a million times
I was thinking the exact same thing, this line doesn’t win now or in the future
Is there any way
to communicate to AA how absolutely infuriating it is to witness CIto putting out lineups like this? I just don’t even understand what the hell we’re doing right now. I like to win as much as the next guy, but Travis Snider helps us win and not playing him now makes us a worse team in the future. Is there any way to bridge the disconnect b/w AA and Cito!! SO frustrating!
Protest infront of the Rogers Centre....G20 style
Seriously, if this wasn’t Gaston’s last season as Jays managers I wouldn’t be joking about protesting. Why are Snider and JPA riding the pine while people like McCoy, Wise, Hoffpauir, Molina, and JohhnyMac(still love him) are getting starts. I think putting in our youngsters is more important than winning when it doesn’t mean much at this point in the season.
by Schenn4captain on Sep 8, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
has anyone written about whether there actually is tension between the Front Office and the manager’s office regarding Cito’s lineup decisions?
you would think there would be a story there but I suppose Damien Cox is too busy sitting on his ass and insinuating that people are on ’roids, instead of doing actual reporting.
We could start a rumour…..
Excellent…..
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Tension Last Season
I know for a fact that there was tension in the clubhouse at the end of last season. It was been Cito and a couple of other players. Does anyone know who was involved or what the reason was behind it?
by Schenn4captain on Sep 8, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
also hates:
pitchers,
phenoms,
anything that isn’t a veteran stuggling to make a go of it as a major leaguer
is this a mocking tweet from Lott?
Gaston said he wanted to load up on RH batters vs Holland. Was gonna sit Lind too but sez Lind has “pretty good numbers against him.”
I shudder to think how small a sample size were dealing with here when you consider that Holland is an alwest pitcher with fewer than 200 big league innings in the bag...
With keeping Lind and his not so mighty numbers against lefties in the lineup I mean.
is this the....
“we’ve won the series, trot out the trash” line-up?
But it can't be as we still need to win 1 more
4 game set. We have only won 2 correct?
I call that the House Money lineup
we’ve already won the series so we’re playing with House Money
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Despite how much of a joke it is that this lineup gets trotted out while Snider and JPA ride the pine, looking at the positive...
At least Lind is getting another start at first.
Cito Gaston
I love what he did for the bluejays 17 years ago but honestly right now we don’t need a Cito Gaston type bench boss. We need someone who knows how to put Snider and JPA in the lineup. Someone who doesn’t but McCoy in LF when you have other options. Someone who puts JPA in the lineup if he is planning to have 2 catchers on the lineup.
Why is this doddering old fool...
…being retained as an “advisor” next year? Out of “respect”? What’s he going to advise?
“If you ask me…sit Snider every other day, and when you do play him, stick him all over the place in the batting order.”
“Brilliant, Cito…brilliant.”
Agree 100%
The only thing Cito has ever done in the past few years that I think was very productive was when he first arrived and stuck Lind in the lineup everyday. Other than that he hasn’t done anything to develop Snider the way he should have.
by Schenn4captain on Sep 8, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Y’know… I read somewhere that at his age Snider’s had more AB then any Jay since Moseby. I think the bitching about his playing time is excessive.
He’s not here to ride the pine. Its just stupid to call up a big time prospect, and not play him. A waste of time playing once every 4th or 5th day when he can be raking in the minors everyday. Because he’s not playing everyday, its hard to get into a groove when he does start since he hasn’t seen major league pitching in a week.
HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!
I’m not sure where your getting every 4th or 5th day from… kinda hard to qualify that statement given no game days and what not. And it’s not just the bitching about actual games played (or not played as the case may be) it’s all the spleen venting in between… Snider has a game day off bitch bitch bitch, Snider plays but bats 8th or 9th bitch bitch bitch, Snider plays but bats leadoff bitch bitch. Heck, they did option him to the minors (where he would theoretically get this playing time that folk clamor for) I recall very little in the way of anything I would call pleased that he’d get more playing time (some but not much) but I do recall a bunch of venting about him being sent down.
Seriously, it’s all so over the top. I’d almost be place a bet that if Snider played in 95% of the season in the #3 spot folk would just complain that he wasn’t in the other 5% and batting clean-up.
And for the record I do think he probably should have stayed in the system longer then he did but what’s done is done.
he has 200 at bats...
the reason why he has more at bats than other players his age is that most guys his age don’t make the majors. It is just silly to say ‘oh it’s ok, he’s got more MLB at bats than anyone else his age. With his talent and age, he ought to be playing every day, not half time.
There is no reason he should be in the minor…he has nothing left to learn down there.
See this is what I’m talking about he’s not playing “half time” minus time on the DL he’s played in 3/4ths of eligible games and started 2/3 of them. Saying “half time” is just hyperbole.
For the record I’m not defending Cito… Cito does stupid stuff all the time. McDonald and McCoy in the outfield just to get an extra RH bat based on statistically insignificant splits being a prime example. I think that Snider isn’t the hard done by soul that folk are trying to make him out to be.
He should play every game
any game he sits so that Fred Lewis, John Mac, DeWayne Wise or Mike McCoy play is a waste. We have a guy that should be a big part of the future of the team sitting so guys that have no future with the team can play.He shouldn’t bat nine. If we want to win now, he’s better than the guys in front of him, if we want to win later he should be getting more at bats than guys in front of him. It is a massive mistake that he only have 200 at bats up to this point when he should have 400.
Saying that it is fine he sits while these guys play is just silly, but I guess someone has to take opposite view.
…and if he hadn’t spent 53 games on the DL and had started games in rough proportion to what he’s done so far this year he’d have had about 360-370 (assuming an average of 4 PA per start) which is pretty damn close to that 400. And I really don’t see why he can’t hit 9th… really I don’t see what the big deal about having him bat 8/9 is, the effect on the number of PA he’ll get is minimal and if you want to arrange your hitters in a performance based order It’d be hard to rationalize having him any lower then 7th.
but why wouldn't the team recognize
that he has lost time to injury and make up for it by having him in the lineup everyday now? You say that, and it’s true, but it’s something the team should be considering in determining how often he plays now.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Bitching about play time?
What playing time? How will Snider develop or get in a groove or get any confidence at all if he is sitting on the bench? If we aren’t going to play him regularly then why even bring him up to the big club?
by Schenn4captain on Sep 8, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
What playing time?
Well going by the numbers the jays have played 138 games, snider missed 53 of those while on the DL (going of of his SBN profile) so that leaves 85 games he could have appeared in while he actually did appear in 63 (via mlb.com) meaning that he’s been in approximately 74% of the games he could have played in. 74%… it hardly strikes me as being an abomination against all that is holy that Travis Snider has been in 74% of what he could have.
Meanwhile… Lloyd Moseby 358, Travis Snider 153, Alex Gonzalez 126, John Olerud 117, Tony Fernandez 103, Jesse Barfield 68, George Bell 60, Carlos Delgado 45. The number to the right of the name is the number of major league games those guys had played by the time they were Travis’s age as of a week ago.
Please try to understand my bitching..he onlys starts 67% of the time he is available!
Out of those 63 games he has been in, he has only started 58. So 67% of the time he is up with the Jays he was not the starter! 67%!! 67!!!! Sure that doesn’t seem like a lot but for someone that could be playing everyday in AAA that is a lot.
Last season, Travis Snider was suppose to be an everyday player. He played until May before he got sent down to AAA. In the time he did play, he was batting at the bottom. If he struggled, Cito would take him out. So w.e what’s done is done but this season we were all expecting Travis Snider to be an everyday player again. But..
Cito did the same thing as 2009. Placed him at lead off or 9th, and whenever he struggled he did not not start the next game. When can we finally stick his ass in the lineup and leave it there so he can get on a roll? It’s been 2 years of the same bullshit. If Travis Snider played regularly this season he would be on pace for around 23 home runs. But he only starts 67% of the time he is available.
I will now go back to the post last week about how Cito ruined Travis Snider’s self confidence “It seems like we’ve wasted the last two years with Snider. Snider, like Ashby said, seems to be playing worried about making mistakes, instead of being a play showing his skills”
It doesn’t matter if Travis Snider is 2nd all time in AB as a Jay at his age if he isn’t getting the chance to develop properly. Travis Snider could have been a 20 hr hitter this season and last season. Yet he is an unproven player that still isn’t getting the chance to prove himself.
by Schenn4captain on Sep 8, 2010 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Regardless, folk go on and on as if he were hardly playing but that’s just not the case. Even if you want to go just off of starts (which I don’t think is an entirely fair metric, but I’ll grant pure game appearances may not be either) he’s still playing 3/4th (if you want to use appearances) or 2/3rd’s of the time but to listen to folk go on and on you’d think he was playing less then half that which flat out isn’t true.
yes those guys played less games to that age...so what?
they had guys playing above them that deserved playing time. Saying he’s played more MLB games is showing what a great player he is thought to be.
You really think Wise, McCoy, Mac, Lewis should be taking at bats away from Snider?
The “what” is that Snider’s been given more of an opportunity at the major league level then all those past greats so it’s not like he’s being unreasonable held back.
And I like Fred Lewis so I have no problem with him getting to play… I like Travis Snider as well so I have no problem with him getting to play either. Barring an injury I don’t see why the other guys should ever touch the field thou (doubly so with McCoy and Mac in the outfield… that’s puzzling to say the least.
What the duece… why are we playing our spare utility infielder/pinch runner in LF? Surely all three of Lewis, Snider and Wise can’t all be hurt? Cito put’s wayyyyyy to much value into left-right splits if he thinks playing Mike McCoy who bat’s terribly against everybody (Left and Right) into a defensive position he rarely plays is the best move.
I really don’t care if he chooses to sit Snider and Arencibia, I do care that he doesn’t seem to be putting out the team with the best chance of winning.
Cito is rapidly burning up the goodwill he had generated by having the Jays play an effective and exciting brand of baseball this year.
It’s almost as if he is using these september line ups as a big middle finger to the fans who have criticized his managing style in the past.
It’s almost as if he is using these september line ups as a big middle finger to the fans who have criticized his managing style in the past.
That’s getting well into the realm of silly. Puzzling to us or not, I can’t imagine that any facet of what the fans think or care about factors into the creation of the lineup.
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