Thursday Bantering
by Tom Dakers on Sep 9, 2010 12:10 PM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays Analysis
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PrintSo we have a dead oven and fixing it would be roughly the cost of a new one.
Anyway....
Ghostrunner on First talks about the right way to bring a good young player into the majors.
Jeff Blair tells us why Alex Anthopoulos has allowed this to go on. I'm sure he is right. Alex, likely, has just decided that this is a battle not worth righting. As a personal thing, I think it is a bad move for a new GM to not show who is boss. I think you are leaving yourself open to having problems for the rest of your career. But, with Cito leaving, maybe he's right. Maybe it isn't worth fighting over.
I'm sure my first question to anyone looking for the manager job would be: What would you have done with Travis Snider? If the answer isn't 'play him everyday', then the interview would be over quick.
It think it is funny that Cito had great patience with Brandon Morrow, letting him go out every five days, until he found himself. That's the right way to deal with a young talented player. And it's exactly what the Mariners didn't do. But with Snider it is play a few, sit a few, play a few. Never letting him get to the point where he is comfortable enough to think that he is going to be out there the next day even if he has a bad day.
I like this bit in Blair's post:
Gaston ran out as many right-handed batters as possible against Texas Rangers left-hander Derek Holland, with the exception of Adam Lind, because he "had some numbers against this kid." Three-for-five with a homer, to be exact. Got to have a leadoff hitter too, right? Hence, McCoy.
No one has told Cito that 5 at bats means nothing? I wonder what he would think now that Lind is 3 for 9 after his 4 strikeout day.
John Lott writes about Vernon Wells' season. If he finishes with 30 home runs and a .275 average, it will seem like a good season. Really he had a great start, terrible middle and (hopefully) a good finish.
Blue Jay Hunter wants to talk playoffs.
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sorry to hear about your oven
sounds like you’re going through what we went through about a month ago, where everything broke and went wrong at the same time
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
Just read the Blair comments section
Want to throw this out. Say we sign Buck and not take the potential draft pick.
Does BBB think that would be wrong. I just like watching winning teams. He would help us next year, expecially if we solidify the #5 SP. JPA could still play 33-40% of the games.
Just a thought.
I'm not dead set against re-signing Buck on a 1-year deal
most young catchers aren’t brought up into the majors immediately playing every day, and it’d be great to have a veteran catcher who can actually hit since he’s likely to get a good amount of at-bats. But I’ve read that Buck wants an everyday job and I’m not sure he’d be happy with, say, a 60/40 split with Arencibia. Any less than that and I’d be concerned Arencibia’s not getting enough playing time to assess his ability.
I’m not taking it for granted that Arencibia will be an above-average major league, but with d’Arnaud set to start next season at AA and Carlos Perez moving up quickly, the time to find out is likely in the next season or so.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
If Lind's at first
then there’s a DH spot open too. That would mean carrying three catchers if one was going to DH or play first (to occasionally spell Lind) when not behind the dish.
Yeah so JPA could DH
I don’t like carrying 3 catchers though.
where D'Arnaud starts next year
could be a bit of an issue. You don’t want him holding up the chain of catching promotions (JPA to majors, Jeroloman to Vegas, Jiminez to Dunedin, Perez to Lansing), but he could really use some healthy time at A+.
Molina's the better fit in my mind
I’m not dead set against John Buck either, seems like a good guy and has done a great job.
That said, I think the team’s focus should be on developing JPA – whether he’s the starting catcher or backup. And to that end, my impression is that Jose Molina is a better fit. He’s mentally prepared to fill different roles, so there wouldn’t be an issue if say JPA started as backup and midseason shifted to being the primary catcher. Molina seems to be a great teacher – this is already come out this year in terms of his behind the scenes role with our young pitchers and I think he’d be a great fit for mentoring JPA.
Not saying Buck can’t do all this, but at this stage in his career he’s not there mentally and wants to be the number one guy for some years to come, which creates a problem when you’re trying to develop your young catcher to take up that role.
I'd be worried about the regression monster
Buck has had an excellent season, but I’d worry about whether he could repeat it. It’s possible, in which case he would be very useful, but he could also revert to his previous numbers. The problem is that the Jays want to get JPA as the catcher eventually. As Hugo mentions, Buck feels he is an everyday catcher and that sort of blocks JPA. If Buck was willing to be a part time catcher, then I prefer him to Molina, but as Molina is willing to be the backup catcher, right now he’s a better fit than Buck.
Id be more worried that JPA wont be able to hit or be as good with the pitchers as Buck. Before I would worry if Buck cant duplicate last years numbers.
Bucks 08 numbers were poop but the rest have been passable for a catcher playing in KC.
Come on, Rook. Show us that million-dollar arm, 'cause I got a good idea about that five-cent head of yours.
by syc on Sep 9, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Our focus is and should be on developing young players now, so even if JPA’s numbers are a step backwards from Buck’s in the short term (which is to be expected after Buck’s all-star year), that’s part of the process of bringing young guys in.
I think the work with the young pitchers is a question, as wouldn’t want to see their development take a step back. But I don’t think that’s an issue, as the young guys have time under their belts and what JPA doesn’t know in terms of lack of familiarity with the players in the league, these guys do. But I don’t even know that this is much of an issue, as JPA will be doing the work behind the scenes, knows how to call a game and has probably worked with some of these guys in the minors. And you’ve got your veteran catcher too helping to fill in the blanks.
The bottom line is JPA is more than ready for his shot at the big leagues and it’s time.
If JPA gets injured or sent back down next year for a huge amount of time who are we are going to go with Molina and Chavez? id rather not go down that road myself.
The best option seems to bring back Buck and let him and JPA have at it in ST. The way it should be. Instead of just giving a guy the job with out proving anything. I wouldn’t mind seeing JPA traded for some parts we desperately need. Not alot of good FA out there at 3B or 1B and everyone loves young (potentially good) hitting catchers. Also IMO there is Absolutely nothing wrong with a Buck and Jose combo. Plus we have two more on the come up.
Come on, Rook. Show us that million-dollar arm, 'cause I got a good idea about that five-cent head of yours.
by syc on Sep 9, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
How has Cito handled young pitching staffs in the past? I’m just asking because it could be vastly different from how he handled young hitters.
If he had handled both of them similarly, then do you think the reason why Cito was more patient with Morrow than with Snider may have to do with forcing Cito’s hands in terms of the youth of the pitching staff? There weren’t many veterans that could take over for Morrow, Romero, or Cecil, so Cito had to start them. However, there were plenty of veterans who could take over for Snider and Arencibia.
The Jays never had a plethora of young pitchers in Cito’s first stint as a coach.
He inherited already established pitchers like Dave Stieb, John Cerutti, Jimmy Key and Tom Henke when he first took over the head coach position and they brought in guys like Jack Morris, Dave Stewart and Roger Clemens over those years as well.
That said, Todd Stottlemyer, Juan Guzman and Pat Hentgen were all depended on by Cito to pitch, and pitch a lot, during Cito’s first stint. All three of those guys pitched 200 or near 200 IP years by the time they were 25. Guys like Woody Williams, Mike Timlin and Duane Ward were also depended on by Cito at a fairly young age. Al Leiter probably would have been if he had ever been able to stay healthy when he was young.
There weren’t many youngsters during Cito’s first tenure but those that did pitch for him, pitched a lot.
The problem
Here is the thing with the Alex v. Cito debate. If AA goes to Cito and says play this guy no matter what, do this, do that etc… it doesn’t reflect well upon Alex as a leader of the team. Which any incoming manager may be unwilling to deal with thereby limiting our options on finding the best available manager. It is a tough spot for Alex, I am sure they found common ground and disagreed on a few things but still I would have liked to see Snider get a few more looks as well as JPA (to a lesser extent though).
I have stated here before
That I think Toronto looks to have a really good chance to contend for the playoffs in 3 to 4 years. however, I personally think that chance is next to nothing without a productive, maybe even all-star, Travis Snider. I would love to hear everyone chime in on their thoughts there.
If Snider turns into a bust, or never matures to his full potential for that matter, what becomes of the Jays chances to build a winner?
My thinking, well, I like the speed they have in the middle with Ech and Escobar, and Gose, I like the young pitching, I like the catchers (JPA, D’Arnaud). What I’ve always thought was that Lind and Snider and hopefully Hill would be our danger hitters. I still believe in Lind, I firmly believe Hill needs to turn it around as well, but I guess I’ve always thought Snider was going to be the backbone, our Longoria.
All this buttoning and unbuttoning
Not to play devil's advocate here but
Are we really to believe that AA desperately wants Snider in there everyday but Gaston refuses and AA won’t challenge it because of Beeston? That its that simple?
Yeah Beeston confronted the players last year when there was a mutiny against Cito, but you replace any name with Cito and he still has to do that. Its not because he’s buddy-buddy with Cito, its because you don’t let a whole bunch of disgruntled players run the team.
If AA really wanted Snider in there everday he would have got rid of Lewis, its not like he’s got lots invested in him. Yeah we can sit here and play armchair manager and play out a lineup with Snider in Right, Lewis in Left and Bautista at 3rd. But does AA want Bautista as his 3rd baseman?
I think its unfair to put Snider not playing all on Cito, especially with how Sniders gone about it, leads me to believe theres things going on behind the scenes that we’re not privy to. You look at the Rasmus situation (although I don’t think his makeup is as good as Sniders) and you can see where things go really wrong. The favorite line is that Cito “almost wrecked Delgado and Green”, well if thats the case I hope he “almost wrecks” Snider than too. Its something to write about but its about time people calm down about it.
This is a fair point. Can’t assume that in all these decisions AA is diametrically opposed to Cito and quietly seething. I think Jeff Blair makes a lot of sense in his column, with points where AA might not be too bothered by some of these things and where he might disagree it isn’t worth fighting over now. For better or worse, Cito’s the manager, with a long experience and heading off into the sunset, and it’s not worth it for a first-year young GM to start trying to pick fights here. I’d love to have seen Snider playing every day and JPA getting more ABs already, but they’re both young, there’s a new manager coming, it can wait until spring training.
Actually that is an excellent point
AA could have done something with Lewis. We still have Wise on the bench, and Wise is better defensively and on the base paths. If AA wanted to give Snider more playing time; trade/release/waiver Lewis, and have Wise as the 4th OF/PR/defensive replacement.
Let’s play AA for not doing something with Lewis and forcing Cito’s hand…or just continue to be frustrated.
So todays starting line up is most likely:
Wise
Mac
Bautista
Wells
Overbay
Lewis
McCoy
Hoffpauir
Molina
Lind, Arencibia, HiIl, and Snider are most likely sitting due to the recent Citovotitis bug going around
wow that'd be awful
today’s actual lineup is:
Wise LF, Escobar SS, Bautista 3B, Wells CF, Overbay 1B, Hill 2B, Buck C, Lewis DH, Snider RF, (Hill P)
What our lineup should look like aka Cito's Nightmare (playing Snider and JPA at same time)
SS-Escobar
2B-Hill
RF-Bautista
CF-Wells
1B-Lind
DH-Buck
C-JPA
LF-Snider
3B-EE
If you want to put Overbay in the lineup instead of EE then…
SS-Escobar
2B-Hill
3B-Bautista
CF-Wells
LF-Lind
1B-Overbay
DH-Buck
RF-Snider
C-JPA
Both of these lineups put a winning team on the field, give JPA opportunity to get used to catching our pitchers, includes our young players and includes players that have a future or some type of future with the Jays unlike players like JMac, Lewis, Wise, McCoy and Hoffpaiur.
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