If Only Life Were Easy, It'd Be Such Fun: How Much Trade Value Should Ricky Romero Have?
In a discussion some folks were having about trying to put together an acceptable trade package for Joey Votto, Ricky Romero's trade value was brought up. The logic was that Ricky's value is not as high as we might perceive it to be because, even though he was an all-star this season, his fWAR value (2.9) was not all that high this season. Of course, the first problem is that FIP, and thus fWAR, likely underrates Ricky.
His peripherals (K%, BB%, GB%) were all very much in line with what he did last season (perhaps even a very slight tick better). Now, some folks will look at his xFIP last season (3.64) and his xFIP this season (3.80) and say I'm wrong but, remember, xFIP is not only influenced by peripherals. Balls in play can have a very large effect in either direction (because they skew the number of innings pitched and, thus, skew K-rate, BB-rate, and GB-rate). In any event, the point is that his peripherals are very much the same as last year, when he was a 4-win pitcher without anything to suggest that it was an outlier. This season, Ricky pitched 15 more innings. Now, assuming that his BABIP rate returns to where we'd "expect" it to (via statcorner) he'd lose 20 outs and still have pitched slightly more innings than last year, statcorner does this and, using tRA, calculates Romero at 3.4 wins for the year. However, I think statcorner WAR also slightly underrates Romero, since it uses real HR/fly-rate instead of normalizing it somewhat. All told, offence was down this year from last but I'd think Romero was still about a 4 fWAR pitcher (a 4fWAR pitcher is roughly equivalent to a 3.5 rWAR pitcher).
Since it is generally assumed that 5 rWAR is roughly equivalent to an all-star season and fWAR should scale linearly to rWAR (the difference between fWAR and rWAR is in the y-intercept (replacement-level), not the slope (number of wins above it)), 5.5 fWAR should be all-star, right? Wrong. If 5.5 fWAR were all-star level, there would have been -- MLB-wide -- only 11 pitchers who put up all-star seasons. Assuming there are 20 all-star slots filled by starting pitchers (10 for each team, there were 17 pitchers on the AL roster in 2010, so 10 starters is not that many), we should be looking at all-star level as 4.7 fWAR. With the recalculated and (in my opinion) more accurate 4 fWAR, Ricky still doesn't quite make the cut, but he's quite close, so Ricky was actually very close to an all-star quality pitcher this year. So what about Votto?
Votto was a 7-win player. Way more value in a 7-win player than a 4-win pitcher, of course. We've already talked about the contract thing to death. Ricky's contract is immensely valuable, Votto's is good but less surplus value and less time. It's also been discussed that the value of each WAR increases as WAR increases because the same raw value produced in fewer plate appearances (or fewer positions) is actually worth more. It is easier to upgrade from a 6 WAR first baseman and a 2 WAR second basemen than it is to upgrade from 4 WAR players at each position. Makes sense. Except when it doesn't. There is, of course, the issue of switching positions, if guys can switch positions is makes things easier to upgrade. Unfortunately, although WAR assumes that players can seamlessly switch positions, we intuitively know that this is not true. An excellent (say, +12.5 runs above average) fielding lefthanded firstbaseman would not be an average fielding secondbaseman. I'm not saying guys have "natural positions" I'm just saying that assuming that guys can move around the diamond based on positional adjustments is not a safe assumption. Look at Brett Lawrie, who was, by all accounts, an atrocious second baseman but who looks acceptable, heck, even good at third. Positional adjustments are helpful, but are, by no means, perfect. You can't always necessarily get a new guy and just have him (or another player) change positions and expect everything to work out perfectly.
Though sometimes you can. In fact, there is one position where you always can, starting pitchers. Teams may be somewhat locked into 3 or 4 WAR position players, making it difficult to upgrade if they'd have trouble switching positions. But teams are almost never locked into 3 or 4 WAR starters because they need five of them. Ricky Romero would improve pretty much every team in baseball. Joey Votto would improve pretty much every team in baseball, too. But not necessarily by as much more than Romero as you'd expect. There were four first baseman (none of whom I'd feel terribly comfortable moving to another position unless it was DH, which would slightly depress theirs, or Joey's value) who were within 2 fWAR of Joey Votto this year. There were 71 pitchers worth at least 2 fWAR. However, since each team has to start five pitchers, these pitchers tended to be spread around quite a bit. The Phillies, the White Sox, and the Rangers were the only teams with five 2+ WAR starters. Many teams were starting 3-win first basemen, Votto would be a four win improvement. However, many teams were also starting 0-win starters. Romero would be a four win improvement there, too.
In closing, Fangraphs listed Romero as 37th and Votto as 8th on their trade value series. However, remember, that value is constantly changing as time elapses. Since Votto is team- (and cost!-) controlled for a shorter period of time, his value drops faster than Romero's does, particularly as he wouldn't be available for the remainder of the 2011 season (and the 2011 playoffs, of course). Romero should retain more of that value because less of it was tied up in expected 2011 performance. Would I do Romero for Votto straight-up? I don't like to think about it, mainly because I love Ricky (and this is coming from someone with a Joey Votto t-shirt). But my point is that their values are a lot closer than we may realize.
Thanks to all the folks involved in the discussion yesterday for the idea and "Arthur" by the Kinks for the title.
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I'm not sure if you covered this or not
But remember that while it’s not so easy to give up a 4 win pitcher, its not so hard (especially with our farm depth) to acquire a 2 win pitcher to replace him, substantially cutting the cost of losing Romero. If we gave up Bautista, it’d be way harder to cut the cost by acquiring a nearly-as-good RF. Or am I just rambling
by benk on Oct 13, 2011 1:41 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Kind of rambling, kind of true
Total IP needed from starters is about 970
This season, the Jays got only 914 (which is why the bullpen was taxed), so we can assume they are already missing about 50 innings:
Brad Mills provided 19 innings, Kyle Drabek provided 73 innings, and a combination of Luis Perez, Dustin McGowan, and Zach Stewart provided 50 innings. Combine all those guys + the innings that the bullpen covered (which, ideally, it wouldn’t have had to if the Jays had a good starting staff) and we’re looking at a total of 192 innings of replacement-level starters.
And that’s without Jojo Reyes who was better in his 110 innings for the Jays (1.6 WAR/200 ip) than he was overall (1 WAR/200 ip).
So, while, in theory, a team could cobble together 2 WAR worth of starting pitching, in practice, many of them don’t.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
that's not entirely what I meant
I mean it would take a much less significant package of assets (like a C+ prospect) to get a slightly-below-average pitcher to eat innings than the proportional increase in package needed to get a replacement for Votto that’s worse but not that much worse
the trade market is tough to predict
so I think looking at free agent player salaries might be a little clearer.
resigning 3-4 WAR free agent first baseman, Paul Konerko, (dropoff of 3-4 WAR from Votto) cost the White Sox roughly 12 M / yr for 3 years and wasn’t seen as bad deal at the time for either side.
signing free agent 1-2 WAR pitcher, Brett Myers, (dropoff of 2-3 WAR from Ricky) cost the Astros 10 M / yr for two years and also wasn’t seen as a bad deal at the time for either side.
So, you’re right, it’s a bit cheaper to find a worse, but somewhat adequate, replacement for Romero than it is for Votto. But I don’t think it’s as much cheaper as we’d necessarily expect. A lot of folks were clamouring to take on Wandy Rodriguez’s contract (12-13 M / yr over the next two years), and I’m talking about Dave Cameron, not Jon Heyman
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Why, when the team's greatest weakness is pitching, would we trade our best pitcher this year?
Seriously, this trade for Votto stuff is getting stupid. It’s probably not happening because the Reds have a better chance of making the playoffs than the Jays do. Plus, the cost is prohibitive. I don’t care if Votto is worth 3 wins more than Romero, taking a weakness and making it weaker does not make for a playoff team. And if that strategy does work, then you made an 81 win team (actually more like a 78 win team according to Pythagoras) into an 84 win team (but probably an 81 win team, again according to Pythagoras).
The only way this strategy works is if Morrow becomes a true ace, McGowan is fully recovered and pitches like a #2, Alvarez doesn’t regress, Cecil looks more like 2010 Cecil (not 2011 Cecil) and Drabek starts throwing strikes. Oh, and they all stay healthy. I can see two or three of those happening but not all five.
The biggest reason everybody wants Votto is because of his birth certificate and the fact that the Jays haven’t had a true slugging 1B since Delgado left. This is just Justin Morneau all over again when he was winning the AL MVP and Jays’ fans were lamenting the fact that if we only drafted better, we could have had Morneau.
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by JaysfanDL on Oct 13, 2011 1:53 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I don’t think our greatest weakness is pitching. Our pitching just seems a lot weaker than it is because our defense is weaker than the Rays, Yankees and Sox. In truth, on average we are weaker in every area than those teams (although we have stronger pitching than the Sox and a better offense than the Rays).
by JaysSaskatchewan on Oct 13, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Fangraphs disagrees with you
According to them, the Rays hit better than the Jays and the Jays were near the bottom of the AL in most pitching categories (except for xFIP). Of course, the Jays had a lot of turnover so it’s hard to say what the true capabilities of the Jays are.
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We score 36 more runs than the Rays. The reason we do better at xFIP is because our fielding wasn’t very good which makes our pitchers look worse than they were.
by JaysSaskatchewan on Oct 13, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
thank you for saving me the time to write this
Well said, rather not go through the romero trade talk again
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by Bowling_Guy25 on Oct 13, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
the way to be a good baseball team is maximize run differential
if the most cost-effective way to do that is to get an elite offense at the expense of a good pitching staff, we should do it. if not, not. it’s not strictly better to have a bunch of decent players than a few superstars
and yet all the teams are focusing pitching
saying its the most important thing to build around
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by Bowling_Guy25 on Oct 13, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the opposite of what the Brewers did
and they’re doing pretty well
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Same with the Yankees
basically, it doesn’t matter if it’s pitching or hitting or defense, it’s all important (defense is probably not as important as the other two, but still)
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
im not disagreeing its all important
but the current trend is good pitching, before it was out slugging.
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by Bowling_Guy25 on Oct 13, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
that doesn't make it right
btw, my comment above doesn’t mean I necessarily endorse trading Romero nor trading for Votto, just that each individual scenario must be analyzed independently of strategies like “we need good pitching,” because you don’t. unless, of course, there’s some market inefficiency to be exploited
there is no "right"
you pick, if you want to have better offense then defense, its the teams choice.
You obviously want to find middle ground, but when it comes down to it, at the trade deadline, most teams make a choice. Do they want more pitching, or more offense. (ofc yankees/sox/phillies excluded)
And it definitely sounded like you wanted to trade Romero for votto, I’m glad you cleared that up
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by Bowling_Guy25 on Oct 13, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
WRT the last point, that wasn't my intention at all
I do think trading Romero might be a good move, since his value could potentially be at its peak (lots of cost-effective team control, coming off a great traditional stats year) as much as I’d hate to see him go (he’s my favourite player) but I don’t think acquiring Votto is a good idea.
I don’t see why a middle ground is better than becoming elite at one aspect of the game. I think the reason you don’t often see teams go crazy on one side is because it’s so easy to upgrade your replacement players (every team has holes) whereas it’s hard to collect All-Stars at every position. like, if you have an outfield of Hunter Pence-Bourn-Bautista, it’s almost certainly more cost-effective to upgrade your Brad Mills 4th starter than to upgrade from Bourn to Granderson. do you know what I mean?
they wanted marcum and grienke for their bats?
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by Bowling_Guy25 on Oct 13, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
They built around a core of Braun Fielder and Weeks
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Gallardo too
but the other three are more “core” than he is
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
lulz
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Brewers got pitching after having no pitching after last season in which they didn’t make the playoffs.
yankees also had good pitching this year combined with perhaps the best offense in baseball
They built around a core of good hitters
They added pitching parts. Am I wrong?
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
You're making it sound like the only reason they made the playoffs was because of their pitching
They had a solid core of hitters, so they added pitching, which was their weakness.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
looking at the top teams in baseball:
yankees, red sox, cardinals, rangers built on offense.
rays built on defense.
phillies, braves built on pitching.
brewers built on a mix of offense, pitching (but HORRIBLE defense).
there’s no real formula there. it’s just find a way to score more runs that you give up.
"if not, not. it’s not"
I had to read that 5 times
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
thank you for hurting my brain
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
The fact is that nobody said we SHOULD trade Romero
just that to acquire Votto we would need to give up Romero.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Yeah, I said that very thing in another thread, it would take Romero to get Votto
I’m just worried that would lead to people saying we SHOULD trade Romero for Votto. Frankly, it feels like it’s 2006-07 again when every Jays’ fan wanted Morneau for 1B. I would have thought everyone would get their Canadian fix with Lawrie, guess I was wrong.
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Well, straight up, I'd do it.
If we have to add more parts, I wouldn’t.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
The biggest reason everybody wants Votto is because of his birth certificate and the fact that the Jays haven’t had a true slugging 1B since Delgado left.
For what it’s worth, Votto could be Martian and I would still be suggesting that we trade for him. And he would immediately be the 2nd best player the Jays have had since Delgado, which has nothing to do with the fact Delgado was a slugging 1B, but just that Delgado (and Votto) are awesome at baseball and helping a team win baseball games.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
AA doesn't trade for guys at their peak value
Votto is at peak value right now. The cost won’t be worth it. It would actually be better to sign Pujols or Fielder since it would cost less in players and Votto is going to be expensive with an extension anyway.
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With respect
None of us have any idea what the cost would be.
I can see the argument re: signing Pujols or Fielder, but Votto is a) better than Fielder, and b) younger than Pujols. And we are assuming that we could land one of those guys.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
For clarification:
None of us have any idea what the cost would be.
I say that only because none of us would have ever in a million years thought that Wells was tradeable, or Rasmus was obtainable for a prospect and relief pitchers. Perhaps the cost will be prohibitive. Perhaps it won’t be.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
The Reds aren't letting the NL's best hitter for the last two years go cheap
And why should they when they are closer to the playoffs then the Jays. The NL Central is a very weak division and if the Cards and Brewers lose Pujols and Fielder, it gets a lot easier for the Reds to win.
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I would personally disagree on the Reds chances, but that’s also part of the reason we don’t necessarily see eye to eye here. The NL Central will only be weak IF both Pujols and Fielder go elsewhere, and since I personally believe those 2 will both be back in the NL Central again next year (Pujols with the Cards, Fielder with the Cubs) and the Cards will be getting Wainwright back, and the Astros won’t be around to beat up on…
I will be shocked if the Reds make the playoffs with Votto in either of the next 2 years.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
The Reds won the NL Central last year
They have virtually the same team next year, except all their young pitchers will have one more year of experience and they might add some of their better prospects at C and SS with Mesoraco and Cozart.
The Brewers and Cards have serious issues. The Brewers’ d is terrible and the Cards are getting old. And the Astros? Seriously? The Astros are years away from contention, the Pirates are closer than the Astros right now.
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I guess we can agree to disagree.
My point was that without all those games against the Astros next year, it is going to be tougher for the teams in the NL Central to win as many games, since they will be playing tougher opponents.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
OK. Just one question though, what makes you think the Astros are going to be better next year?
Seriously, everything I’ve read about them is that they are a mess and they’ve had one of the worst farm systems for years.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
The Astros aren’t going to be better next year. They’ll probably be the worst team in baseball.
But.
The Astros won’t be playing in the NL Central next year. Which means the games that the Reds (and admittedly all other NL Central teams) were playing against them will be spent playing other better teams.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
I think the Astros to AL West happens in 2013
2012 schedule is already finished, I don’t think they could change it this late.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Right you are.
My bad.
I still think the Reds don’t make the playoffs in 2012 or 2013 with Votto. :)
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
Also
Your argument doesn’t entirely work. If we are talking a hypothetical Romero for Votto swap, you should be comparing the upgrade from 1B to Votto, and the downgrade from Romero to whatever is found to replace Romero.
According to Fangraphs, Votto was worth 6.4 wins more than Adam Lind this year. I’m fairly certain the drop from Romero’s 2.9 to whatever we could find to replace him would be easily offset by the Votto upgrade.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
It won't be just Romero though
I said in another thread that the likely cost would be Romero and Lawrie. The Reds aren’t dealing Votto for just one decent pitcher, they will try for a package. They would want someone who’s young, a top prospect and fills a need for them right now and the only guy we have like that is Lawrie.
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Well, if that’s what you think the cost would be, I guess that’s up to you. I cannot see a single GM in the league that would even consider that. Romero is signed to a good contract, and Lawrie has what, 5 years of cheap service in front of him (and most importantly already looks like a top 10 option at 3B in MLB at 21)? There is no way any GM would even ask for that in exchange for a guy that has 2 years of a good contract but not exactly a cheap one.
I think there is a deal to be made somewhere between Romero for Votto straight up (which AA should do in a heartbeat, in my opinion), and Romero/Lawrie for Votto (which CIN should do in a heartbeat).
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
well they might ask
but it’d be a pretty horrible deal for the Jays, especially since for sorta similar cash costs they could sign almost-as-good Fielder
Why not?
Why can’t a team trading away its best player ask for more than he is worth?
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Everyone knows that it's not a fair deal
but the Reds can ask for whatever they want. It’s up to the Jays whether they accept or not.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
exactly, and the Reds don't have to be reasonable
There’s no pressure to deal Votto this winter (especially if they are aiming for the NL Central title next year) since they can always deal him after next year and still get a decent return.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
but his value then will be substantially lower
I’m not sure if the benefit to the Reds of Votto for one more year outweighs the cost of a lesser package next offseason, but it might and might not
It would depend on what the Reds see themselves as
if they think they’re good enough to compete against MIL and STL, then they’ll wait and see until mid-season or offseason, I think.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Exactly
The reason I think the Jays have a chance at him is because they have the need for a 1B, a deep enough system that they can trade for Votto and not kill it completely, and the money to extend him. I don’t think there are a ton of teams out there that have that combination.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
AA doesn't overpay though
That seems to be the part everybody misses. Votto is right near peak value, AA swoops in when guys are out of favour with their organizations, like Escobar, Morrow, Rasmus.
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I guess it all depends on your definition of “overpay”. I believe there is a Votto deal out there that improves the Jays and improves the long-term viability of the Reds (the latter is actually easier to do, considering they are losing Votto for nothing in 2 years).
And I find it hard to believe that if there is a Votto deal there that improves the team, AA would make it, even if Votto is completely in favour with Cincy and was the best player in baseball.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
This is kind of a misrepresentation
considering they are losing Votto for nothing in 2 years
That’s kind of like the situation surrounding the Jays and Roy Halladay at the All Star Break in 2009. The situation for the Reds is not “Trade Votto now or lose him for nothing in two years” it’s “Trade Votto now or trade him later or resign him or lose him to free agency in two years”
The Reds have plenty of leverage over teams who’d want Votto right now and, in my opinion, it would be foolish for them to do anything until the market sets its prices on one of either Pujols or Fielder. The whole reason the Jays were able to move Vernon Wells at all is his value was inflated by the fact that the Angels missed out on Crawford
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I didn’t say trade Votto “now”, but I see your point. There seems to be a fairly strong consensus that the Reds won’t be re-signing him, but if that is even an option, they probably shouldn’t be trading him. The best course for the Reds is to re-sign him. If they can’t, their next best course is to win bigtime over the next 2 years (championships are forever). If they can’t (or don’t think they will be able to) do that (like I suspect), their next best option is to trade Votto for as much as they can get. They will get more now than they will at any point later (or at least, they should).
I 100% agree that Votto shouldn’t (and won’t) be dealt (if he’s dealt at all) prior to Fielder and Pujols signing. But again, that doesn’t mean there isn’t a deal out there to be made. :)
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
Remember when half a season Cliff Lee was traded for the #13 rated prospect in MLB?
me too
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
half a season of* Cliff Lee
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Also
the majority of FG community believe that Jurickson Profar + an actual player with actual surplus value for Votto is a fair-ish deal. I’d say Romero + Lawrie isn’t TOO far off from that.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
I get it
You think I’m wrong. Fair enough. I’ve been having this same conversation for weeks now so I guess we can see what happens and go from there.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
Joey Votto is tearing us apart
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
Except that the Jays aren't the ones with the leverage
It’ll be closer to what the Reds want than what the Jays want
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Unless the Reds want to turn their asset into as much as possible before they lose him for nothing (sorta like what benk notes above).
I don’t disagree that the Jays don’t have as much visible leverage, but that doesn’t mean Romero/Lawrie for Votto is a reasonable guess as to what it will take. My position is that there is a deal there to be made. I get that a lot of people around here disagree with that. That’s fine.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
If the Jays try to offer a "fair" deal
I’m sure other teams will try to top it
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
you mention the Lee deal
but there are plenty ofexamples of teams not getting “fair” value for their superstars (Gonzalez is an example)
A little early to say on that one
Rizzo and Kelly were probably Boston’s two best prospects. In Petco, I could see Kelly being a decent pitcher.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
What DL said
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Of course
there’s definitely the Lee to SEA deal, which was awful
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
and even the lee to philly deal
was basically one high upside A ball pitcher, two projected utility players/fringe starters, and one interesting upper minors pitcher. and that was for 1.5 years of a cheap ace!
I wouldn't use the word ace
He looks like an ace now, but at the time of the trade I don’t think you could convince me he was an ace. Was in the middle of a great year, but only had one fantastic year, one good year, one mediocre and 2 bad years.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
combined ~3 FIP (3.5 xFIP) over the previous 1.5 years
thats like a ~2.5 FIP (3.0 xFIP) over a year and a half right now given that league scoring is down ~.5 per game since two years ago
yeah
and before that he was mediocre.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
~12.8 WAR in the previous 3 years
with 11.4 of it coming in the previous 1.5 years.
marcel probably puts him at a 4.5 WAR projection from that. throw in the fact that we’re pretty sure he’s a better pitcher from 2008 on than he was before that given his 1.5-2 mph velocity spike, and he projects even higher. that definitely puts him in the top 15 pitchers in the game.
Disagree
Jays have tons of leverage. They have a 1st/DH signed to a long-term contract and 3 upgrades available (if you include Votto as available). We don’t need Votto.
The Reds have 2 great hitters that can only play 1st and have gaping holes at SS, OF and SP.
by Matthew Mueller on Oct 13, 2011 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
So is Anthopoulos going to go
“Hey Walt! What’s up, man? Yeah, she’s doing good, thanks for asking. So… is Votto available? What? Nah… we’re not THAT interested. We have Lind! Just wondering, Walt, old pal. But, uh, if he IS available… you know, it’s not like we NEED him or anything…”
Like that?
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
No. Its kinda like Beede
You set a price that you think he is worth in terms of prospects or players. If they say yes, you get Votto.
If they say no, you let them send Votto somewhere else.
I think people are overrating Votto’s importance to the Jays where their are other possible trades that could have the same effect on the team as Votto (i.e. Kemp, Phillips, Victorino, Cain, Garza, Shields)
If AA keeps looking for value instead of narrowing his search to one guy, he will keep fleecing teams. As soon as he says we need THIS guy and only this guy you we will get fleeced.
by Matthew Mueller on Oct 13, 2011 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Lind to Votto could fairly easily be a 6 win swing
of course we lose Romero too, but the difference between those two first basemen is a ridiculous difference, not even close to the difference between KJ and Phillips (maybe not even McCoy and Phillips) or most of those other guys besides Kemp
Phillips is 6 WAR
and presumably could be traded for without giving up Romero. Thats like 4-5 War and you dont lose as many prospects
by Matthew Mueller on Oct 13, 2011 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
okay, didn't realize Phillips' 2011 was that good
but a few things. one, his performance is buoyed by a really high UZR that ADR only kind of agrees with (they think he’s about a +3-5 run defender – UZR says +11). he also just had his best season at 30, which isn’t likely to continue for long, and his offense was buoyed by a BABIP 30 points higher than his career number. Phillips is certainly a very good player, but he takes assets to add (much more than Johnson) but the marginal benefit is much lower than adding Votto, even with the prospects IMO
I am just saying Phillips is in the last year of his contract, if the Reds pick up the option. He could be had for a lot less than Votto and would substantially improve the team. (Also I need another year of watching Lind suck before I am ready to give up on him.)
by Matthew Mueller on Oct 13, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd rather find a mid-to-long-term solution, though
whether that means Reyes (highly unlikely) or KJ (fine by me). I don’t think we should go after an expensive stopgap, especially an aging one, though if we needed to plug the hole with Scutaro for a year or two (while we wait for a trade target/FA/Hech) that would be okay
Since you brought up Beede I have a question
I only saw this once or twice but did you guys discuss whether Beede had an arrangement with Boston? The rumour I saw was that Boston promised him 3m and it sort of made sense given that Beede was one of the loudest “commitments” and floated that number. It was obvious from the tweets that the prospect guys were either ignoring or discounting an arrangement with Boston but the reason I’m asking is because a couple of those tweets suggested that Beede and Jays were the ones with an agreement in place.
Sorry if that sounds all conspiracy like or was already covered but most seemed surprised Beede only non sign and I agree with MM about AA being incredible at setting a value for players and not overpaying.
Back to this thread, I do see a similarity between Jays/Halladay and Reds/Votto trying to trade a guy they lose in 2 years.
- Ricciardi couldn’t trade him in year1 because he wasn’t a very good trader while AA jumped in immediately got good value? or….
- Ricciardi couldn’t trade him because the offers were poor and AA succeeded because the offers improved with 1 year left?
It’s obviously complicated and love the ideas being thrown around, best of all is that Anthopoulos has been in the same position Jocketty is in so if there’s a trade to be made it surely helps the club.
"I didn't really say everything I said."-Yogi ism
I don't know about that
we’re discussing trading for Votto here, do you think Reds fans are discussing moving him 1) at all; and 2) specifically to the Jays?
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I think financially the Reds have to either go “all-in” or rebuild. 3rd place teams with $80mill payroll don’t work in Cincinnati.
As far as the Jays, I don’t think the Reds should trade Votto to the Jays unless a third team is involved. I think SS is the Reds biggest need and I’d want a Hak Ju Lee or Profar back in the trade (not Hech).
by Matthew Mueller on Oct 13, 2011 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Right
because it’s not like the Jays have one of the top shortstops in baseball available at a fraction of what he would cost on the free agent market
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Trading Escobar is nuts unless you plan on grabbing Reyes
Hech can’t hit. While we are at it can may make Johnny Mac or Mike McCoy the everyday SS.
by Matthew Mueller on Oct 13, 2011 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions
you can grab Scutaro for a year+option
I’d be happy with a 2.5 win downgrade if it meant a 6 win upgrade at first (though I still think the best plan is adding Fielder)
SS is hard to replace. I just wouldn’t do it.
by Matthew Mueller on Oct 13, 2011 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't either, I love Yunel
but the on-paper value upgrade is in favour of adding Votto (unless they need Romero or other MLB assets which they will)
So you want to trade for another good player
without giving up any good players of our own. That just doesn’t work.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Don't put words in my mouth
I wouldn’t trade a 4 WAR SS unless you had someone ready to replace him. SS is too hard to fill and you don’t get them for $4 mill a year too often.
1st base is easier to fill, and Votto doesn’t necessarily have be traded for this season.
by Matthew Mueller on Oct 13, 2011 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
okay
I agree with that
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Isn’t that how we got Yunel in the first place?
by JaysSaskatchewan on Oct 13, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Both have been discussed on Red’s sites. Not nearly as much as here however :)
by JaysSaskatchewan on Oct 13, 2011 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Hilarious NotGraphs post on Fantasy Baseball
Am I allowed to link here or do I have to fanshot (which I wont because i’m lazy)
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Can do both, Gotta remember some people dont venture into the comments.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Kenny Ken Ken and his bowtie strikes again
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
I think AA should at least
wait and see if Molina/McGuire/Hutchison can cut it in the MLB before he starts trading for “win-now” players.
Besides, I believe Romero still has the “upside” to get even better, which is likely not the case for the older Votto. And something that’s too easily dismissed by people focusing on stats is that Romero’s a great guy, and a “face of the franchise”.
by Woodman663 on Oct 13, 2011 6:07 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Hutch and Molina might never make the Majors
it’s entirely within the realm of possibility that they’re at peak value right now, particularly if the scouts are right about their merely decent “stuff.” and Romero is highly unlikely to improve much more (most pitchers plateau in their third season, though not all) and while Votto might not improve, it’s hard to be much better than a top-5 player in baseball, don’t you think?
There's a counter-case to everything
Hutch could be an ace / his value might be at a peak
Romero could get better / he could’ve already peaked
Votto will continue his elite performance / his age will get to him
Sometimes, I just get tired of having debates.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
yup
baseball tends to be much, much less black-and-white (we should do this and not this!) than we as fans, me included, tend to make it out to be.
on that note, that applies to almost every situation in life
Remember the Manny Ramirez debate and sightings last year?
by JaysSaskatchewan on Oct 13, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
good times those were...
I was convinced he was coming here. Oh I sure get carried away with this stuff.
more good times
Roberto Alomar’s World Series catch at 1:15
by JaysSaskatchewan on Oct 13, 2011 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
yes it's hard ot be better than Votto
but there’s no point in having him on the Jays if that’s not going to make the Jays compete.
there literally isn't a single player in the universe
that could turn the Jays into contenders alone. hell, if there was, it’d be Bautista and even he’s not enough. but adding Votto makes us one huge step closer
if we had another bautista on top of the bautista we have now
we’d be contenders :)
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
A roundabout way of saying
the Jays should invest in cloning
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
eventually they'd age so fast it would be inefficient
but by then the market would probably be stabilized
related
Just watched Moon. Pretty good movie.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
I like Sam Rockwell
very underrated
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
well, no
lawrie can’t be cloned. The universe would explode.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Clone one for every at bat
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Anybody watch Moon (the sam rockwell movie)?
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
It's all just a double rainbow
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Our good friend Octavio pitching
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
i find it suprising
that very few people seem to have considered that the reds are trying to win now and might be more inclined to trade alonso
many have
but that’s no fun! We demand Votto!
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Not going to read the whole thread...
…but why would you mix around fWAR and rWAR, in an effort to say that fWAR undervalues Romero, yet not mention his rWAR?
I think his rWAR might prove your point quite nicely. It’s 5.9. That puts him at 6th best in the AL, or 9th best in the (league adjusted) whole major leagues. If anything, your reasoning is exactly why some people perfer rWAR, which is pretty impressive if you did it without knowing his rWAR before-hand ;)
Aslo, as far as I understand, you’re a bit off about the difference between rWAR and fWAR for pitchers being only the valuation of replacement level. My grasp of the differences between pitcher fWAR and rWAR is weak at best, since the information available is sparse, but I seem to have found consensus that they also adjust for team defense differently, which means the accumulation of rWAR will progress at a different pace in comparison to fWAR for each individual player. If this wasn’t the case, then fWAR would always be rWAR + X, with X being a constant. As it is, there is no direct correlation between fWAR and rWAR (with rWAR often being lower, but in rare cases like Ricky’s, it’s much higher), which indicates quite clearly that they use more than just a different baseline.
Actually, if you’ve got any good info on fWAR vs rWAR for pitchers, link me, because try as I might, I can’t get much solid info.
I don't like rWAR for pitchers, which is why I didn't use it
The short answer to your question (the full answer would be in Gerse’s link above) is: They use a different baseline (the replacement level rally uses is about 4 or 5 runs higher than the one fangraphs uses) but, as the post above states, once a player is replacement level, accumulation of WAR should occur at roughly (not quite precisely, but very close to it) the same rate.
The fact that the two methods aren’t correlated (actually, they are, there’s just a lot of error in a model fitting the two to one another) isn’t due to accumulation of WAR at different rates, it is due to different methods of calculation. So you can compare them to one another, but if you want to compare one player’s rWAR to another player’s fWAR, you should add half a win. Essentially, a 2 rWAR player is roughly equivalent to a 2.5 fWAR player. fWAR should accumulate slightly faster than rWAR but I don’t think it is necessarily enough to make a huge difference.
If you want to generate a dataset of all the players fWAR and rWAR we could easily fit one to the other and see what that difference is. The dataset I had for the previous piece looked only at teams.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Then how come...
… some players rWAR is fWAR + 5? By your reasoning, rWAR should always be lower than fWAR (by half a win per season). This is clearly not the case though, as shown here:
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2010/11/29/1839730/are-fwar-and-rwar-on-different-scales
Really, the numbers appear totally unrelated, and the +.5 is just usually a ‘ballpark’ number.
Because of the difference in baseline
Look at that list and you’ll notice that the players who have the biggest differences (Brooks Robinson, Carl Yastrzemski) played a lot of “compiler” seasons where they were adding to their career WAR by 1 or 2 or got a lot of value from their glove (the same two above, Ron Santo, Graig Nettlesand, at a higher replacement level, it becomes more difficult to set yourself apart from the pack in the field)
Also, my point above
“fWAR should accumulate slightly faster than rWAR but I don’t think it is necessarily enough to make a huge difference.”was in reference to one-year samples. Of course when you’re looking at things over player’s careers you’re going to see big differences.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
no it's not the baseline for pitchers
they use a completely different method. fWAR for pitchers is purely FIP-based. meanwhile, rWAR essentially takes RA9 then applies a constant “defensive adjustment” per team. ie if the jays were -.1 runs per 9 innings defensively over the course of the year, they’d subtract .1 from each jays’ pitcher’s ERA.
i’m personally much more on board with fangraphs’ approach, because i think FIP captures a pitcher’s past performance much better than ERA/RA9, although you could convince me that averaging them makes more sense.
Ah, Jono has the formula
exactly what I’d been lead to believe, that rWAR for pitchers takes team defense into account. I didn’t know how it did so, but I read an article of Tango’s that mentioned it being the major difference.
i'm not sure if that's exactly how it's done
but i know they apply a defensive adjustment based on the overall defense of a team (ie based on how good the team’s defense was over the course of the season, not how good the team’s defense was when that particular pitcher played), so i assume they just do what i said.
so rWAR kind of takes defense into account. although it doesn’t take into account sequencing and BABIP luck and gives full responsiblility for those things to the pitcher.
Huh?
We were talking about aggregate pitching WAR, not specific pitcher WAR, if I’m not mistaken.
As such, the differences in aggregate WAR should not be based on methodology (since differences with defence would cancel one another out) they would be based on difference in baseline.
I (incorrectly, I suppose) assumed that everyone in on this discussion was aware of the fact that rWAR used RA instead of FIP.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I would definitely trade Romero for Votto
The issue which has been brought up is that the Reds could get a comparable pitcher from multiple teams so the cost will be high no matter what – supply and demand – 1 Joey Votto, lots of Ricky Romeros.
Is that really true though?
On the open market, there are 2 Votto’s right now (Fielder and Pujols), with 2 more Votto’s currently in the AL East (Bautista and Gonzalez).
If you believe Romero’s 3 fWAR is representative of his skill, then you would be correct that there are many pitchers to be had at that level. If you believe he is worth the 5.9rWAR from this year, then there are not that many. I personally think his true worth to be equivalent to ~4.0fWAR as jessef states here. This year, only 24 pitchers accumulated 4+WAR. Of those, only 1 (possibly 2 with CC) are available through free agency.
I agree, you can find a Romero type pitcher easier than a Votto type hitter, but supply right now for Votto’s is at an all-time high, while supply for Romero’s is at an all-time low.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Oct 14, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Though I should state I would make that trade straight-up + minor parts
but would not be doing so with a big “I’m screwing over the other guy” grin on my face, as I’m sure AA had in the Rasmus, Escobar, and Wells deals.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Oct 14, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
only Pujols is comparably good to Votto
Fielder and Gonzalez are both very good players, but not on the other two guys’ level (and Pujols is old)
WAR is a measure of what happened in the past
that doesn’t matter for trade value. all that matters is what a player is expected to do in the future. romero’s averaged basically 3 fWAR per year the last 3 years. how do you project him at 4?
also, rWAR is different from fWAR because rWAR includes sequencing and BABIP luck, and kind of includes defense, whereas fWAR only looks at K/9, BB/9, HR/9. fWAR is going to be closer to a pitcher’s true talent, whereas rWAR varies significantly year to year.
An unweighted mean of RR's past 3 seasons makes no sense
By applying the same weight to each season (1/3 in this case) you are implying that his rookie season is equally as indicative of his current skill level as last year.
RR was a 4.1 fWAR player 2 years ago. Jessef showed above that he was probably closer to a 4.0fWAR player this season, but Fangraphs is undervaluing him (which seems right based on his rWAR value and the analysis above).
Therefore, you have a player that posted 2.8WAR in his rookie year, followed that up with 4.1WAR, and then ~4.0WAR. And honestly, even if the 2.9WAR season this year wasn’t undervaluing him, I have a hard time believing that he is only worth 3.0WAR based on that progression.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Oct 14, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm not sure he really demonstrated that
in particular, he makes this claim: “In any event, the point is that his peripherals are very much the same as last year, when he was a 4-win pitcher without anything to suggest that it was an outlier.” the problem with that, is that league offense was down from 2010 to 2011! so while a 3.5 ERA/FIP might be worth 4 WAR in 2010, in 2011 that might only be worth ~3.5 WAR.
plus pitchers are huge injury risks. you can’t reasonably project any pitcher for 200+ innings really (well maybe halladay). remember a projection is the 50th percentile outcome, as in you’d expect him to do better than his projection half the time, and worse than it half the time. given that despite good health over the past 3 years romero’s best fWAR season was 4.1, i find it hard to believe that there’s a 50% chance he does at least that good next year, after taking potential injuries and skill degredation into account.
League average FIP
2010: 4.08
2011: 3.94
The run environment wasn’t all that much different and Romero’s peripherals may have been slightly better and he pitched more innings.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
so that's 3.5 runs per 225 innings (what romero pitched)
so that’s a ~.35 difference in WAR given the same FIP. close enough to what i said.
But nowhere near what fangraphs says (which is 1.2 WAR)
not to mention the fact that he may actually have been (very) slightly better, as suggested by his statcorner tRA and his ERA
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
or he may have been slightly worse
as suggested by his lower K rate and much higher HR rate (and his higher xFIP)
it's possible, though HR-rate could be largely due to luck
and his k-rate wasn’t actually any worse, it was just that his babip was better
2010 K%: 19.7
2011 K%: 19.4
his GB-rate was worse but only by 0.5%, so I don’t really think that’s anything either.
I don’t think you can use his xFIP. xFIP relies on a “normal” number of linedrives / ball in air. In Ricky’s case, he gave up very few (at least that’s how they’re scored).
xFIP assumes that he’ll give up a greater number of homeruns due to a higher flyball% (greater HR-potential) but doesn’t give him any credit for the fewer hits that should come about as a result (since flyballs are more likely to be caught).
Essentially, xFIP would prefer a pitcher who allowed a linedrive on every ball in the air to a pitcher who gave up no line drives but lots of flyballs. Since a linedrive is obviously worse than a flyball, this is an error in xFIP.
In other words, xFIP sees 2010 Ricky as better because he gave up more linedrives. xFIP is wrong.
great discussion, by the way.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
just so I'm clear here
I wasn’t trying to advocate trading Romero now nor was I trying to say he’s worth Votto straight-up.
The intent of the piece was merely to describe how much trade value Romero (and other 4 fWAR pitchers) should have relative to 4 fWAR position players.
Really, the major point of the article is that it’s generally accepted that the value of each WAR scales by some exponent above a certain threshold (probably around 2 WAR) because of scarcity of good, great, and — especially — elite players. Hence, the difference between a 6 WAR position player and a 4 WAR position player is greater than the difference between a 4 WAR position player and a 2 WAR position player. I think there is a general assumption that the same hypothesis holds for pitchers.
My point is to reject that hypothesis for pitchers because there are so many innings available to starting pitchers that it is much more difficult to fill ~1000 starting innings with average – above-average players than it is to fill any other position with average – above-average players. Thus, the difference between a 6-win starter and a 4-win starter is much closer to the difference between a 4-win starter and a 2-win starter.
This is important because it implies that elite pitching is less important than elite position players — only two teams got 20+ WAR from their rotations (Phillies and White Sox). Seven teams got 4+ WAR from catchers, nine teams 1st basemen, seven teams from 2nd basemen, nine from SS, eight from 3rd basemen, 15 (!) from centrefielders, and nine got 8+ WAR from corner OF slots combined.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
(as playoffs!) says above
Only 24 pitchers MLB-wide were worth 4+ WAR (25, if you include Romero) . . . fewer than one per team. Good pitching is much scarcer than good hitting, which is why elite pitching is less important than elite hitting.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
this isn't really true
because you’re looking at observed performance. what you really want to look at is true talent. the reason they don’t match up for pitchers and hitters is that fWAR strips out almost all the luck invovled in pitching whereas it doesn’t strip out any of the luck involved in hitting. thus fWAR for hitters is going to be much more volatile around their true talent than it will for pitchers.
but on aggregate you'd expect much of the luck to even out
which is pretty much precisely the opposite of what jessef is observing
you would if you looked at the mean, but not at the extremes
here’s a good analogy: imagine you have two groups of hitters, (A and B), and every hitter has a true talent .280 batting average. if the standard deviation of group A’s batting averages is .10, but the standard deviation of group B’s batting averages is 50, then if you look at only hitters with >.300 observed batting average, it’s going to be dominated by group B even though their talent isn’t any different.
their talent is different
one team has a bunch of Vottos and a bunch of Betancourts, one team has a bunch of Juan Pierres
? i was just talking about the pitcher vs. hitter WAR > 4 comparison
you can’t do that, because the variance of a hitter’s observed WAR around their true talent is much higher than the variance of a pitcher’s observed WAR around their true talent. thus, even if both groups have the same overall true talent, the hitter group will have more extreme observations (both good and bad).
it is
but even when you account for that, the pattern is the same (just less obvious)
on a side-note, rWAR is screwy. This season there were nine 5.0 rWAR (supposedly all-star level) pitchers and 14-5.0 rWAR position players in all of MLB
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Okay, use rWAR
which does not strip out luck.
40 pitchers accrued 3.5 rWAR. The number of pitchers roughly equivalent to ~4.0 fWAR is still nowhere near the number of position players who are.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
ok fair enough
using 3.5 rWAR as a cutoff, there are 41 pitchers and 57 position players. given that there are only ~6 important pitching roster spots, and 8-9 important hitting ones, i’m not sure if that’s that big a difference.
Also, can we take a peek at innings/start (or, per starter)?
The farther back you look, the more innings you’ll see starters pitch, making it much easier to break 4 (or 5) WAR. As teams get more and more paranoid, shutting starters down, limiting pitch counts, and rolling with 6 man rotations, the number of pitchers who will have enough innings to break 5 WAR is going to drop.
That doesn’t mean that there are actually fewer elite pitchers, just fewer pitchers providing elite value.
no it's not generally accepted that WAR scales exponentially because of scarcity of elite players
in fact, it’s generally accepted that WAR scales linearly. there are a lot of posts/comments on fangraphs and the book blog about this.
the reason is that while having a 6 WAR player might use up less roster spots than two 3 WAR players, having one 6 WAR player also drastically increases your risk. it’s not obvious which factor should be dominant, and it turns out that teams pay for WAR linearly in free agency, which means that they value the roster spot and the decreased risk equally. if you want to argue that WAR should scale exponentially, then you need to make a good argument for why the 30 MLB teams are wrong.
You're entirely misinterpreting (or misrepresenting) my point
I didn’t say future WAR value is perceived to scale exponentially, I said that the value of each WAR (as in, the actual value, with no risk inherent, after-the-fact value, if you will), is perceived to scale exponentially.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
oh i guess i did misinterpret your point
and yea i’d agree that’s true after-the-fact.
but you were talking about trade value, and that’s based on projections, not after-the-fact WAR. so i’m not sure what your point is?
no worries
my point was that if you project Romero as a 4 fWAR player as a pitcher, that has more value than if you project some position player as 4fWAR player. As you said, you need to incorporate risk into that projection, so for a pitcher to project at 4 fWAR he’d have to project as somewhat “better” if healthy than a position player (who is less likely to be injured) would.
Since the projection is something like his average projection * his certainty value of that projection (obviously you can use ceiling * likelihood of that ceiling or whatever you think is most important to you, be it certainty or potential), when I say 4 fWAR I mean two projected as 4 fWAR (including the player’s risk component, which is essentially projecting the player after the fact).
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
ah but i don't agree with that
i’m saying that given two players who both project at 4 WAR (ie product of performance possibilities and probability of attaining that performance), the player with the lower variance of expected performance is more valuable.
ie given the choice between a player who’s guaranteed to produce 4 WAR, and one who’s 50% to do 6 WAR and 50% to do 2 WAR, teams on average would rather have the first player.
or in other words
given the choice of one projected 6 WAR player or two projected 3 WAR players, teams would rather have the second combination because it has lower variance. but, it also uses up an extra roster spot, so in the end teams are indifferent between those two possibilities (based on their spending patterns), which means that they value the roster spot and the decrease in risk equally.
okay
in the first place, I’m not that interested in what teams would rather do, I’m interested in what they should do. You’re assuming team omniscience which may not necessarily be the case.
And I don’t think teams always prefer the “safer” bet anyway — that’s why you see teams trade players who are close to or in the majors for higher-ceiling but less-established prospects.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
this is normative conjecture, no?
not saying it’s wrong, but I’ll believe it when you show me some data
The problem (as I see) with the method
is that it ignores possible collusive effects, which are likely to be most important for elite players
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

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