Toronto Should Target Clint Barmes at Second Base
by Marc Hulet on Nov 15, 2011 4:39 PM EST
in Toronto Blue Jays Opinions
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The Toronto Blue Jays club currently has an opening at second base. A number of names have been bandied about including incumbent Kelly Johnson, former Jay Aaron Hill (who recently re-upped with Arizona), and Jamey Carroll (who just agreed to terms with Minnesota).
The best free agent option for Toronto, though, is Clint Barmes, an infielder who spent 2011 playing shortstop for the Houston Astros. The former Rockies draft pick hit just .244 but he produced a 3.1 WAR, good for a value of $14.1 million according to FanGraphs calculations. He made just over $3 million in '11 and is in line for a modest raise (probably no more than $5 million per season). He'll open the 2012 season at 33 years of ago so a two-year, $8-10 million contact might be reasonable.
Despite the "meh" batting average, Barmes walks at a reasonable clip (7.7%) and has line-drive power that produces a good number of doubles and 10-12 home runs a season. He's also a good base runner (who doesn't steal a ton of bases). Barmes handles the bat quite well and has a history of being able to bunt, sacrifice, and advance base runners.
This is important because he could fill a vital need for the Jays, not only at the keystone, but in the No. 2 hole in the lineup. The Jays club needs to get hitters on base - and into scoring position - in front of slugger Jose Bautista. Anyone who watched the club in 2011 knows that the Jays lineup struggled to play small ball and did not do a good job at advancing base runners. Barmes fits the No. 2 spot much better then the two players who spent the most time there last season: Corey Patterson and Eric Thames.
The real value in Barmes lies in his defense. He has experience at shortstop, second base and a little third base. According to his career UZR rates, Barmes is an above-average fielder at both middle infield positions. With four pitchers - including staff ace Ricky Romero - currently boasting above-average ground-ball tendencies, a strong middle infield is important.
1. Luis Perez 60.3 GB% in 2011
2. Ricky Romero 54.7
3. Joel Carreno 53.7
4. Henderson Alvarez 53.5
Barmes' posted a 10.8 UZR/150 at shortstop in '11. The last time he played second base regularly (‘09) he had a 6.1 UZR/150. Johnson had a 3.1 UZR/150 rate split between Arizona and Toronto in '11 and his career rate is -0.6. Former Jay Aaron Hill's career UZR/150 rate is 4.1. Barmes would be an outstanding option at second base, while also offering protection at two other positions.
Like C/1B/LF Ryan Doumit, whom I previously recommended for the Jays, Barmes is not a star player but he fills multiple club needs as a defensive-minded veteran with the necessary skills to fill the No. 2 spot in the lineup. He also comes at a reasonable cost (based on current market projections) and would not block any young players.
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This is important because he could fill a vital need for the Jays, not only at the keystone, but in the No. 2 hole in the lineup. The Jays club needs to get hitters on base – and into scoring position – in front of slugger Jose Bautista. Anyone who watched the club in 2011 knows that the Jays lineup struggled to play small ball and did not do a good job at advancing base runners. Barmes fits the No. 2 spot much better then the two players who spent the most time there last season: Corey Patterson and Eric Thames.
You want the Jays to give a 31 year old with a career .302 OBP the starting 2B job and the number 2 spot in the lineup?
No. Thank. You.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
by Jevant on Nov 15, 2011 4:46 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Averaged more than 2 WAR for the last 4 seasons
don’t have a better option, other than Johnson, but I really want that draft pick
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He's probably the next best 2B after Johnson
If Johnson signs elsewhere, then I’m ok with Barmes. Just not ok with Barmes hitting No. 2.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
yeah
and I really don’t think the Jays will be winning next year
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Then why not pursue someone that might be worthwhile as a future option? I can sorta understand signing Barmes if you are going to spend money elsewhere next year and want a defensive presence that hits 9th, while you load up your money elsewhere and contend. But if not, what’s the point?
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
like who?
There’s really no options available. You could save a little more money by using McCoy, I guess.
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Considering they are already paying Hech, might as well have him instructed by the big boys.
Or, make a trade.
I am somewhat coming around after reviewing Barmes defensive reputation. But to suggest (repeatedly!!!) that he is good solution for the number 2 spot in the lineup is just baffling to me.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
"the number two spot"
I don’t think he’ll be hitting second in the lineup, to be honest
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I would assume Farrell wouldn’t do that.
That said, making comments like that reflects poorly on the rest of the article. Especially when it talks about OBP being important, and then suggesting a terrible OBP player be inserted directly in front of Bautista.
If the article said “sign Barmes to be a stopgap at 2B for his excellent defensive abilities and with the ability to have him on a cheap enough contract to be moved to the bench as soon as a better player is acquired”, I would have probably said “that seems reasonable enough”.
Heck. Sign both him and KJ, and end this Mike McCoy experiment. I’d be ok with that.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
Even I think Thames could do better than a .302 OBP in the No. 2 spot
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
by JaysfanDL on Nov 15, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
truism
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking." (J.M Keynes)
The best case scenario would be Johnson signing with the Tigers
and the Jays getting Barmes
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or
The Jays trading for a legitimate second baseman and not settling for crappy vets.
by Nadia on Nov 15, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I never said that, I responded to Pikachu's comment...
Realistically, Johnson is the best option but Jays need to find a long term solution. As far as I know, we have no promising middle infield prospects except for Hech and who knows whether he’ll ever be able to hit.
Best case scenario, AA trades for a young promising second basemen.
by Nadia on Nov 15, 2011 9:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Barmes would be an okay stop-gap
If Kelly Johnson declines arbitration, and we don’t find a better 2B on the trade market that works for the Jays, then sure, Barmes would be acceptable. But let’s not give him a two-year contract.
In response...
The OBP is dragged down by the AVG – you can’t just look at the OBP when deciding if a player should be at the top of the order. Barmes has a walk rate of more than 7%, which is reasonable for No. 2 hitters.
Top of the order guys like Michael Bourn, Jose Reyes, and Jacoby Ellsbury all had similar walk rates. If you move his BABIP up .030 to league average levels, his OBP would be .340, which is not terrible.
The article didn’t suggest OBP was important as a blanket statement. In the same sentence you’re getting that from, it states that it’s also important to move the runners into scoring position. If you look at Barmes’ sacrifice numbers over his career, they are among the best in the Majors during that time frame.
As well, if he does decline in the second year of his contract you can use him as a glove-first utility player in the John McDonald mold.
Who would fit better as the No. 2 hitter among the players currently on the 40-man roster?
by Marc Hulet on Nov 15, 2011 6:17 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Well, I'm a fan of the Book
So, one of the Jays best hitters. Bautista should hit 4th, so Lawrie would make a lot of sense in the 2-hole.
who would fit better as the number 2 hitter?
escobar, bautista, lawrie, rasmus, encarnacion, snider, thames, lind…basically everyone else on the team.
barmes is projected for an OBP around .300. that’s ugly for a top of the order hitter. once we know that, why do we care that it’s due to lack of hits and not due to lack of walks? either way, he doesn’t get on base.
and his career BABIP is .280 in 3000 PA. why would we expect him to magically up that to .310 next year (which would be way above the league average)?
by Jono411 on Nov 15, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Number two
Rasmus, Snider, Thames, Escobar, Encarnacion, Lawrie…lots of better options. Barmes is a 9 hitter at best. And sacrifice bunts have been proven to be counter effective statistically.
by TimZig on Nov 15, 2011 6:24 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Joe Inglett?
.283 .342 .392 .734
That is Joe Inglett’s career batting line.
He filled in for an injured Aaron Hill for almost a full season, and I don’t remember him being disastrous defensively.
Given the thin market at 2B, it’s funny that he isn’t being discussed… Reputation as a backup I guess? (similar to pre-Jays Scutaro?)
haha, Voodoo Joe.. Forgot about that. He was a favourite of mine
Agreed on McCoy. I think that overall, he could be as good as Barmes, Ellis and some of the other options out there as well… not to mention 2010 and 2011 Hill.
I won’t happen though.
Well, McCoy can play SS, which Inglett cannot
However, he’s an interesting option for 2B. He was decent in ’08 when Hill went down. His stats look terrible the last two years but that might be due to only playing part time.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
Why did we let him go in the first place?
He was solid defensively when he wasn’t in the outfield. Without looking deeper into his stats I also remember him being almost impossible to strike out. He almost had an Ichiro like swing with decent speed which makes him almost impossible to double up on a grounder. Sounds like a good #2 hitter to me.
Man who has four balls cannot walk
by Beer Leaguer on Nov 16, 2011 1:57 AM EST up reply actions
I actually dont hate it
But to me he makes more sense as a utitility type. I think we get a 2 bagger via trade and also if hes ever in the lineup, he bet6ter be in the bottom third. not hitting second haha
Another idea for catcher
Jeff Mathis? likely to be non tendered
No
NONONONOONNONONO
No Mathis
Illuminate My Heart, My Darling!
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I’l call your “NONONONOONNONONO” and raise it by a couple more NONOs…
Mathis,… ugh
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking." (J.M Keynes)
Hmm
I actually might prefer Mathis over Doumit. Mathis is horrible with the bat, but does seem to have the framing and other defensive skills that Doumit lacks. I guess it really depends on whether you want your backup catcher to have offensive or defensive skills.
He's impossibly bad at hittting though
wRC+ since 2007:
60, 53(!), 56(!), 32(!!!), 26(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Check yoself before you rec yoself.
it's baffling how bad he is
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It's what happens when you make a backup catcher the fulltime catcher
I have no idea what Scioscia sees in the guy. Maybe Mathis has some compromising photos of his manager.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
actually
he played more in 2008~2009 than he did in 2010~2011
Illuminate My Heart, My Darling!
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Maybe in some weird BTTF way Scioscia is gradually fading from the pictures?
Check yoself before you rec yoself.
nah
he played more in 2011 than he did in 2010
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is Mathis not the worst batting regular starting position player in baseball over the past 4 years? In fact, the season Adam Dunn put up this year is comparable to Mathis’s career season average. I don’t see AA ever making a deal and getting the worst hitting player in baseball no matter how good defensively he is.
by Sean Coleman on Nov 15, 2011 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
that 14.1 million dollar value
made me LOL. big time lollergags
by ddbumpus on Nov 15, 2011 9:52 PM EST via mobile reply actions
that just goes to sow that
while WAR is a very useful tool, it couldn’t be the all-important-single measure-for-how good-a-player-is that some believe it to be.
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking." (J.M Keynes)
Barmes or Johnson at 2B…what a depressing topic. My problem with Barmes is his BB%. Its true that it was 7.7% last year (whether or not this is a “reasonable clip” i suppose is another debate). The season before it was 8.1% which was even better however prior to that, it is’n pretty. 2005-4.2% 2006-4.1% 2008-4.1% 2009-5.1% If 2010 was a career peak and his BB% continues to decline back to his career average, he really offers very little offensively at all. I suppose I would have to lean towards Johnson over Barmes though i find neither particularity enticing. To me, there is a higher probability that by some slim chance Johnson finds his swing and returns back to his 3.5 to 6 WAR then the probability that Barmes ever even duplicates his career high of 3.1 WAR that he put up playing for a horrible Astros team last year. Of course, the fact that Barmes does hit a lot of line drives would make his outs a lot more exciting then Kelly Johnson’s popups/fly balls so i suppose that’s a point for Barmes.
what's the problem with Johnson?
3 WAR average over past 3 years. I think people don’t like him because he doesn’t do anything that stands out in people’s minds well. he takes some walks, hits for decent power but plays average defense, is only a little bit fast, and strikes out a lot. he’s a solid player.
It’s a little surprising how sour people are on Johnson. Even in 2011, which was bad, it wasn’t completely disasterious. He still showed plenty of power and the ability to take a walk. Unless Johnson is looking for big money or years commitment, I’d still support trying to lock him up for at least a couple of years.
It’s baffling to me as well. If we hadn’t traded for him and watched him up close for the last 2 months, I assume he’d be high on the list of “undervalued guys we’d want AA to target”.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
by Jevant on Nov 16, 2011 7:49 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
yeah I dont get it either and I dont know why people are so obsessed with the pick.
People, we have a good farm system, lets actually try to improve the club now and KJ is the best 2nd baseman on the market and as you said, he’s not spectacular but he is solid with an all-around game.
im hoping we re-sign him
by Sniderlover on Nov 16, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
pick up scutaro to play 2nd base
scutaro plays well defensely and can hit for average and rbi. alternatively, use brett lawrie at 2nd and edwin E or bautista at 3rd.
scutaro's option got picked up
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meh
a. Barmes is suited more for the 8 or 9 hole. Getting on base 30% of the time is not what I want out of the 2 hole
b. at age 33, I’m not expecting him to repeat his levels of the past few years. I’d rather take Johnson, going into his age 30 season, even with poorer glove.
c. We don’t know what the compensation situation will be until the CBA is agreed, so picks as compensation may not be as high for Johnson as in past years. Hopefully that bit of business will be resolved shortly.
predo for thames with snider in left
atlanta gets a young outfielder and we have our second baseman
they did Escobar for SeaBass...
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking." (J.M Keynes)
i've been thinking about this
i think it would be good for both teams
pick up howie kendick of LA Angels to play 2B
kendick hits consistently well and is pretty good defensely at 2B.
That would be the equivalent of another picking up Escobar from the Jays
why would the Angels let him go?
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free up salary...
i have no idea
Rent this for cheap!!
by Bowling_Guy25 on Nov 16, 2011 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
They'd more likely extend Kendrick then trade him
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Barmes
Has not been good since he fell up the stairs with Todd Helton’s deer meat. If he was good before that…which he probably wasn’t.
As a result AA will not pay him real money, because he tends to avoid real money to guys who aren’t good.
by Underachiever11 on Nov 16, 2011 5:47 PM EST reply actions
howie kendrick is eligible for arbitration in 2012 and would be a great addition to the Jays
kendrick can play 2B and also 1B and LF. he has very good bat control and can be great hitting #2 in the lineup between escobar and bautista.
sure
but he’s likely to be expensive and we don’t even know if he’s going to make it all the way to free agency. I don’t think hoping guys become FAs and then hoping they sign with you is a good strategy, though teams do occasionally do it
sometime you need to spend big $$$ to get a key player to become a winning team
kendrick has had a high batting avg for 6 consecutive seasons in the majors and also several years in the minors. jays need to learn to pay up for consistency. it cost the jays to pick up joe carter and robbie alomar in 1990, but they were key pieces to create a winning team. these days, the jays pay big $$$ to unproven one-season wonders like aaron hill, bj ryan, adam lind, alex rios, vernon wells, etc. or they pick up non-impact players like corey patterson, jon rauch, juan rivera, etc. for big $$$ to create a .500 or sub-.500 ball team.
sometimes the answer is just that simple
kelly johnson will also be very expensive and kj does not even come close to kendrick in terms of consistency.
this is true
okay, I agree with you on some points but not on others.
yeah, I kind of agree that we need to be acquiring some elite talent to compete, but I very much don’t think that acquiring a player at the peak of his value (or close to it anyway) with only one year of team control is the way to do it. I’m not prepared to give up our only elite prospect (the conversation starts at d’Arnaud) plus more to get him. KJ isn’t as good, yes, but I don’t think he’s going to cost much more than like $8M/year tops.
the second part is that Hill and Lind were pretty highly touted prospects. I don’t think many people saw them completely fall off a cliff like they did. Rios was coming off back-to-back 5 WAR seasons, I don’t think many people saw his collapse either. Wells was a bad deal, as was Ryan, but all of these deals were signed by the previous administration.
Rauch had had four straight good years before 2011. Patterson is an acceptable 4th outfielder, it’s not his fault Snider couldn’t hit and Davis got injured. Rivera had to be taken in order to make the Wells trade.
the 2011 Jays are much further from contention than the 1992 Blue Jays are. completely different scenarios
I'm a massive fan of Howie Kendrick
I think the price just might be a little high. But if we want to go for it then I think trading prospects for him this year would make sense.
by Mike Andrew on Nov 16, 2011 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
The only way I would even bother picking up the phone is if he got off to a rocky start next season. I have a feeling he would be willing to sign an extension for the right $$ figures. Just a hunch :P
by Mike Andrew on Nov 16, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
okay
prepare to trade d’Arnaud+
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Naw
I would only do it if his value was lessened by a rocky start or something but even in full swing I don’t think he would command a top 5 farm systems best prospect. Especially one that plays a rare position.
I would see a few serviceable major leaguers(Lind, Edwin, Thames), top 10 prospect and a high ceiling guy who is in low-A/high-A
I’m no pro so that’s just a guess.
by Mike Andrew on Nov 16, 2011 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
true
he only has 2 years of control left.
Lind/Edwin are zero to no value for the Angels, they’re full at 1B/DH.
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Kendrick?
BB-ref shows him at 5 years, 91 days of service time, so he’d only have 1 more year of control
if the jays prove to be a serious contender, good players will want to stay regardless of control
we have control of travis snider and colby rasmus, but these guys seem to choke in the majors thus resulting in a .500 ball club. kendrick is a strong impact player.
Kendrick wasn't an impact player before 2011
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kendrick has a overall batting avg of .292 over 6 seasons in the majors
if that is not an impact player, i don’t know what is. i don’t think the jays currently have any hitters that have that kind of a stat. i am sure bautista, escobar and lawrie may have that one day.
Kendrick's career line pre-2011
.295/.327/.425, 99 OPS+, with above average defense.
That’s a good player. That’s not an impact player, in my opinion.
I would say Yunel Escobar is a better player, and a much more valuable player, thanks to his awesome contract. Kelly Johnson is also close.
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but I'm not taking anything away from his 2011
it was a very good year, but he’s definitely going to be overvalued.
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kelly johnson is not close to kendrick
kj is more like aaron hill.
really?
Kendrick career: .292/.329/.434
Johnson career: .260/.343/.441
Illuminate My Heart, My Darling!
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of course
there’s the defense and baserunning issues, in which Kendrick has a lead in, but Johnson has the edge in health.
Illuminate My Heart, My Darling!
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oh, whoops
my bad, I thought he becomes a FA after 2013
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