Joe Inglett as Our Starting 2B?...Yes, I'm Serious.

by REMO on Nov 19, 2011 5:06 PM EST

I never understood why a guy like Joe Inglett doesn’t get an opportunity to get a full time job. I remember JP Ricciardi saying once that a guy like Joe Inglett would never get the benefit of the doubt. Nice to guy to say that in a public forum eh? Regardless of what I think, he may be right. But again, I don’t get it. Defensive metrics (and my eyes) say he’s fine at 2B. And in comparison to other 2B out there (albeit in a small sample size of 900 AB), he’s pretty good offensively, though he won’t get you many home runs. I remember him as a tough out, who could take a walk, and made decent LD-type contact more often than not. He became a fan-favourite, and at least seemed like a decent guy to have in your clubhouse.

He could probably be had on a minor league deal, so they wouldn’t need to guarantee him anything. That way, he can compete with McCoy, Hechavarria, and perhaps other low-key FA signings for the starting job.

To be honest, I don’t know why he wouldn’t have an edge over almost anyone else out there. The free agent market is terrible, and in looking at the other teams’ 2B, I don’t see any realistic trades out there (though feel free to propose any). Take a look at the career numbers of the available 2B. How is Inglett any worse than anybody in there (considering offense, defense, age and salary).

Now I won’t pretend that Kelly Johnson isn’t much better than Inglett (because of his expect 20 HR power). But Johnson is going to cost money and is worth picks. There’s also going to be a lot of competition, so the Jays might not even be able to keep him if they want to.

Castillo, Infante and Felipe Lopez could also be decent stopgap options.

Available 2B after jump

Available second basemen

Player	Avg	OBP	SLG	OPS	Notes
Joe Inglett	283	342	392	734	898 AB. About average according to defensive metrics. Won’t cost much
Luis Castillo	290	368	351	719	Had a terrible 2011 season. 36 years old. Could have a bounce-back season
Alex Cora	243	310	338	562	Not even worth discussing as a starter
Craig Counsell	255	342	344	686	His offensive #’s are declining and weren’t that good to start with.
Carlos Guillen	285	355	443	798	Good career #’s, but they are (along with his AB’s) seriously declining and are not consistent with his career #’s. He’s 36.
Jerry Hairston Jr.	258	326	371	698	Slightly below average defensively. Has never found a full time gig in 13 years
Omar Infante	275	318	393	711	He did not have a great 11 season, but could bounce back.
Kelly Johnson	260	343	441	784	We know his story. He’s probably the top FA 2B, and will probably cost about $8M/year
Adam Kennedy	272	326	385	711	He’s been pretty awful for 2 years now
Felipe Lopez	264	33	391	724	He’s been inconsistent in his career, but if he has a good year, he’s OK.
Jose Lopez	263	294	398	692	He’s been pretty awful for 2 years now
Aaron Miles	281	320	352	672
Adam Everett	242	294	346	640	Would he be willing to play 2B?
Rafael Furcal	282	348	408	756	Would he be willing to play 2B?
Alex Gonzalez	247	291	399	690	Would he be willing to play 2B?
Augie Ojeda	234	320	313	633
Nick Punto	249	325	327	652
Edgar Renteria	286	343	348	741	His career #’s are not indicative of his recent performance (about .650 OPS)
Ramon Santiago	249	316	342	658
Jack Wilson	266	307	368	675
Orland Hudson	277	345	417	762	Under contract for 5.75 M. Had a down year, could a trade be made?
Orlando Cabrera	272	317	390	707	Is declining and getting old

Poll

Joe Inglett for 2B, yes or no?

Yes

17 votes

No

52 votes

69 votes | Poll has closed

Tweet Comment 79 comments | 0 recs |

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Comments

between Inglett and Johnson

I’d rather just have Johnson

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by Pikachu on Nov 19, 2011 5:10 PM EST reply actions

There are some decent stop-gaps here, Jerry Hairston Jr. and Rafael Furcal among them.

by gabrielsyme on Nov 19, 2011 5:23 PM EST reply actions

Furcal

Looking for a multi-year contract, and based on the interest, he’ll probably get it. I wouldn’t want to give a multi-year deal to Furcal.

by MjwW on Nov 19, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions

I don't know about that...

He’s like a career Inglett. He never got that full time opportunity. But the difference is, his offensive numbers are not as good. Furcal is a shortstop and I think he might be expensive.

It would actually be interesting to see if someone can show (using stats or some other type of analysis) why anybody outside of Kelly Johnson, would be better as a stopgap. Or maybe it’s an intangibles thing where the Jays need some “veteran presence” manning 2B?

by REMO on Nov 19, 2011 6:41 PM EST up reply actions

Joe Inglett could be a back up plan, but I wouldn’t bet on a career utility man making the jump to full time player with factoring in some significant regression. Having Voodoo Joe and Mike McCoy as a bench platoon wouldn’t be the worst option to start the year, and opens up for AA to male a move mid-season.

by dexfarkin on Nov 19, 2011 5:43 PM EST reply actions

Inglett has actually hit righties pretty well in his career

But mike just cant hit at all left or right

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by Bluebirdz on Nov 19, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions

Personally, I don't see us competing next year

So for me, signing a the best player available that will do a 1 year contract makes sense.

I understand if people don’t like my idea because I understand that some people feel we are closer than I think.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 19, 2011 6:34 PM EST reply actions

I agree with this

If KJ is still a Type A, and we can leverage that. sure let’s get him.

Otherwise, I assume we’ll get a cheap placeholder (like Inglett) or AA will swing a trade to fill the hole on a more long-term basis.

by MjwW on Nov 19, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions

KJ's FA value went up...

…with the new CBA as signing teams will not lose a draft pick, but the team that loses the player will get one. So while I was 50/50 on resigning him, it now tips slightly toward letting him go.

I think Inglett and McCoy would be two good guys to have around and having them split the 2B and Utility role might not be so bad, at least until a better 2B option comes around.

I’m guessing by now that Inglett has no more options – at least I hope so. We can’t afford to send him down. Every time he got sent down, someone got hurt and he was called right back. I seem to recall that twice, he still hadn’t even left town before getting recalled.

Guess what? They’ve both pitched one perfect inning in their careers!

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by bluejaysstatsgeek on Nov 19, 2011 8:52 PM EST reply actions

I'm not sure KJ is a type A anymore though

I’ve heard that some borderline type As are dropping to type Bs. Not certain.

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by Pikachu on Nov 19, 2011 9:04 PM EST up reply actions

Yeah, I've heard something similar...

…though not very fair to change the rules in the middle of the game.

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by bluejaysstatsgeek on Nov 19, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions

I thought that only regarded RP

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by Bluebirdz on Nov 19, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions

I don't think anybody debated that his value went up

Call me crazy but I think McCoy could start. Bill James agrees. He is projected to have a .326 OBP next season, which puts him above our 1B. We aren’t competing and hes a cheap solution.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 19, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions

no power whatsoever though

I tweet.

by benk on Nov 19, 2011 9:32 PM EST up reply actions

I agree

But hes an above replacement level player without power. He will be Aaron Hill type.

Again I think we just need a cheap solution to a temporary problem. Trading for an aging 2B doesn’t make the picture any brighter at this point, we just need a Corey Patterson type player who doesn’t bat high in the order and plays 2B instead.

Who knows, maybe McCoy could develop a reputation enough to make a trade. For now people like Phillips (Who is a FA in a years time) would only make sense if we were going all in this year. Howie Kendrick is another option if we wait a year. Not to mention you can have at least a few replacement level players on a championship caliber team, maybe we don’t address 2B and use the extra cash/resources to go after a SP. Maybe a guy in the minors says hey I wanna try out 2B. There are so many more options if you wait.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 19, 2011 10:10 PM EST up reply actions

At his absolute best he's an Aaron Hill

he’s most likely a John McDonald

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by Pikachu on Nov 19, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions

Bill James Rage (BJR)

He was 0.04 off Linds OBP. And was only .1 OWAR and .1 DWAR behind him.

He also sported a much better OBP than Hill and killed him in WAR.

Only reason I’m suggesting it is that its cheap and gives us a chance to get some value. I don’t care if we play D’Arnaud at 2B, I just think internal is always better than shopping for somebody who will cost us money and could potentially be worse. I’m not debating with you that McCoy is a GOOD 2B.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 19, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions

.004*

by Mike Andrew on Nov 19, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions

huh?

McCoy killed him in WAR? Hill had .8, McCoy had .3

Anyways, i’m also not debating that McCoy is a good 2B, just that he’s a worse option than Hill.

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by Pikachu on Nov 19, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions

Hills gone

And we need a stopgap. Is Hill 5M better than McCoy?

Baseball reference:
Mike McCoy: .5 WAR
Aaron Hill(TOR): -.4 WAR

by Mike Andrew on Nov 19, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions

eh

I don’t really trust Total Zone as much as UZR, which is the difference maker here.

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by Pikachu on Nov 19, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions

wait, what?

Aaron Hill was worth 1.3 rWAR in 2011, not -.4. Not sure if you’re intentionally only looking at the toronto numbers

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by Pikachu on Nov 19, 2011 10:55 PM EST up reply actions

I'm sorry

I thought we were talking about the AL East at the dome where he had 400+ PA’s. If he was never traded would of he started hitting .300 off CC Sabathia? I’m willing to bet he would still suck.

I even said Aaron Hill(TOR) above.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 1:29 AM EST up reply actions

oookay

So you’re saying that, sometime during the plane flight from Toronto to Arizona, Aaron Hill became a completely different person, so that 33 games in a DBacks uniform doesn’t count?

Of course there’s differences in league/opponent/ballparks/etc., but completely ignoring the parts where he played well isn’t really fair.

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 1:45 AM EST up reply actions

So your assuming that

If he stayed in Toronto he would of finished with the same rWAR?

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 1:46 AM EST up reply actions

who knows

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 1:46 AM EST up reply actions

I wouldn't bet on it

but I also wouldn’t bet against it.

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 1:47 AM EST up reply actions

if that makes any sense

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 1:47 AM EST up reply actions

it does

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 1:47 AM EST up reply actions

So you think that if Aaron Hill came back to Toronto he would play more like he did as a DBack?

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 1:47 AM EST up reply actions

Who.

Knows.

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 1:48 AM EST up reply actions

I'd expect him to hit .256/.314/.405

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 1:48 AM EST up reply actions

How much WAR do you think?

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 1:54 AM EST up reply actions

dunno

depends on how UZR rates his defense. anywhere from 1.5~2.5, maybe even 3. I fully expect him to be in the threshold of an average player

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:02 AM EST up reply actions

Weren't you one of the people who didn't like Hill as an option though?

I remember presenting the idea of signing Hill once and everybody shot it down.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 2:07 AM EST up reply actions

Probably has more to do with me actually not liking Hill

2 years of watching him suck does that to you.

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:09 AM EST up reply actions

Meh

I still think a +defender who might be respectable on day is a good player to have.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 2:15 AM EST up reply actions

I think he could be an average player

but I just wouldn’t want him on my team.

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:15 AM EST up reply actions

Fair enough I guess

I hope we trade for him :)

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 2:17 AM EST up reply actions

The Bill James projection?

Those tend to be overly optimistic of player value.

by dudedudedude on Nov 20, 2011 2:14 AM EST up reply actions

okay, then

several ticks below that. I don’t even really care.

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:15 AM EST up reply actions

Well just try and understand where I'm coming from

I had a choice: When comparing two ex-teamates who played against the same opponents in the same division with the same ballpark factors.

I could either take the Toronto specific data (Which he had 400+ PA’s to go along with McCoys 228) which he suits up often against the same opponent,

I could take the data which includes the player leaving the division to play weaker opponents in different park factors with teams not having prepared a scouting report (See what happened to Thames and Lawrie after a few games in the bigs? They got slowed down).

I decided to go with option A. I felt that it was too perfect a comparison to leave out, the guys playing in some of the same games against the same pitchers at the same time. I didn’t feel I was intentionally leaving information out (I did specify (TOR)), I felt I was using the whole of the information I had to the best and most accurate of my ability.

I don’t intentionally leave information out, I just simply felt that it made more sense the way I did it.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 1:54 AM EST up reply actions

I'm not sure you can say that the pitching in the NL West is weaker than that of the AL East

And you could make the same argument about “prepared-ness” in the opposite direction: Hill, without previous experience against the NL West pitchers, hit well. Who’s to say that, as he continues to play against them, he hits better?

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:06 AM EST up reply actions

We've drawn ourselves a very hypathetical world my friend

I suppose… but I argue the AL East is tougher.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 2:13 AM EST up reply actions

offensive-wise

pitching is pretty meh

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:14 AM EST up reply actions

I disagree

Good offense = harder environment to pitch under.

3 ERA in the AL East is like 2.5 ERA elsewhere IMO.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 2:16 AM EST up reply actions

Not sure it's quite that much

Also have to consider park effects and what not. Park factor at home sucks, and is going to inflate numbers

by MjwW on Nov 20, 2011 2:19 AM EST up reply actions

I bet if you include everything

Including like RA in strength of schedule it would be around 16% difference.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 2:21 AM EST up reply actions

Between other AL DIvisions, no

Between AL/NL, sure.

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:22 AM EST up reply actions

I thought we were still comparing NL West

And AL East, no? :P

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 2:23 AM EST up reply actions

you mentioned other AL Divisions

so I was confused

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:25 AM EST up reply actions

AL East ERAs and other AL division ERAs shouldn't differ too much

but AL/NL would, something like 0.50 ERA seems right.

Tick down all the ERAs in the AL East and compare with NL West. Pretty similar.

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:21 AM EST up reply actions

The park factors themselves in this division are unbelievable

The fact that CC can pitch 3 ERA here, I think he should of gotten more Cy Young votes.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 2:23 AM EST up reply actions

check the xFIP-s of all the AL East and NL West teams

they’re pretty equal. Giants = Yankees. Dodgers a bit ahead of the Rays. Jays a bit ahead of the Pads. Sox slightly ahead of Rox. DBacks slightly ahead of O’s

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:25 AM EST up reply actions

You have an argument...

Well played.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 2:27 AM EST up reply actions

Not quite that much

More like .2-.3

by dudedudedude on Nov 20, 2011 2:25 AM EST up reply actions

between AL/NL?

seems small, but whatever.

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:26 AM EST up reply actions

Just check the league splits on fangraphs

by dudedudedude on Nov 20, 2011 2:27 AM EST up reply actions

where?

in the library?

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:27 AM EST up reply actions

Leaderboards

Click on league stats then isolate the leagues.

by dudedudedude on Nov 20, 2011 2:28 AM EST up reply actions

that is cool

how do you split up AL/NL? I just get the entire MLB stats.

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:30 AM EST up reply actions

nevermind

got it

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:30 AM EST up reply actions

This isn't exactly science

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 2:26 AM EST up reply actions

I'm pretty sure there someone did exact science on this

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:27 AM EST up reply actions

I'm sure they did

But I doubt they used “ERA”

by Mike Andrew on Nov 20, 2011 2:28 AM EST up reply actions

yup

.2~.3 seems to make more sense

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by Pikachu on Nov 20, 2011 2:31 AM EST up reply actions

Speaking of WAR, Inglett had 2.4 in his only season with a decent # of AB (while in TO)

He had 384 PA. Correlate that into a full season, and he’d be well above 3. Just sayin’.

by REMO on Nov 20, 2011 6:54 AM EST up reply actions

lolrWAR

by dudedudedude on Nov 20, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions

sign Jose Lopez

to a minor league contract if there is room for him in the minors. Seems like the perfect Jays reclamation project. Still only 27 (for 5 more days), and only 2 years away from hitting 25 home runs.

The press is pretty definitive about what the new CBA will have in it, though it hasn’t been released (or even ratified). Not exactly the cone of silence that the Jays would use re press leaks.

by The commentator formerly known as Yoda on Nov 19, 2011 9:35 PM EST reply actions

On an unrelated note

What do you think are the chances of the Mets trading Ike Davis? Slim to none? I would really love to have him.

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by Pikachu on Nov 19, 2011 10:12 PM EST reply actions

I think they'd want Deric Barton in return :)

Check yoself before you rec yoself.

by Gerse on Nov 19, 2011 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

I'm sure they would

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by Pikachu on Nov 19, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions

Slim to none

He still has tons of team control left and the Mets have not made a decision on what the plan is for the next couple years. I don’t think they will compete anytime soon but he could be seen as part of the long term plan for management.

by dudedudedude on Nov 20, 2011 1:41 AM EST up reply actions

I don’t think you make the playoffs in the AL East with Joe Inglett as your everyday starting 2B. Maybe in the NL West but not in the AL East. So to me, if we chose Joe Inglett as our 2B we are basically giving up on the season. I’d rather throw double A guys out who we’ve never seen before who by some miracle could have a breakout season then run Joe Inglett out there who’s going to give us nothing.

by Sean Coleman on Nov 21, 2011 5:11 PM EST reply actions

A replacement level 2B, like Inglett or someone similar, would be okay for a year.

I’m wondering what kind of effect would throwing a AA guy up to the Jays roster who isn’t ready have on his future development?
I think we can compete for a playoff spot, especially one of the Wild Card spots if they come into effect for next season, even in the AL East. Contending teams have holes. Not every roster spot is going to be an above average MLB player. I’d rather have a replacement level player at 2B this year than make a move for Brandon Phillips as some have suggested. I’d like to have KJ back or fill 2B with a one year stopgap until Hech is ready to make the move up.

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by Hobbes11 on Nov 21, 2011 9:28 PM EST up reply actions

I agree with everything except Hech

I think we should sign one of the many 2B FA’s in 2013.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 21, 2011 9:31 PM EST up reply actions

Especially when the alternative is giving multiple years to types like Furcal, Ellis or Jamie Carroll, or giving a commotment of $10M+ to Clint Barmes,

by MjwW on Nov 22, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions