2nd Base... Why not Hechavarria SS/Escobar 2B?

by jaysfanfromeurope on Nov 21, 2011 11:43 AM EST

So we know we have a problem to find someone playing 2nd Base next year.

Ellis, Hill, Barmes and Carrol are signed.

There is nobody out there on the free agent market who blows me away. You can sign Furcal or Cabrera, go with Mike McCoy or give Kelly Johnson a multi-year contract and hope he´ll take it. But in that case we wouldn´t get the draft pics for Kelly. You can start to trade for someone but with Hechavarria already in Las Vegas what do we want to offer for a stop gap?

So we need to ask the question if we are already good enough to fight for the wild card(s) in 2012. I don´t believe we are ready in 2012. And if we are not, why not try to go with Hechavarria at SS and Escobar at 2nd base? The glove of Hech seems to be ready for the big show. I´n not following baseball long enough nor have I ever tried to play the game. But what is the argument against letting Hech learn to hit by doing it against mlb pitchers. Is it really an advantage to play one more year against AAA pitchers and then try to adjust in 2013 (with unknown results)?

I´d offer arbitration to Kelly J. and if he declines...and I think he will decline.... go with Hech at SS and Escobar at 2nd!

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The issue is that it may be thrown the sheep to the wolves

Hech is not ready for ML pitching, and having him try to hit them may end up stunting his development. He may become the SS of the future for the Jays, but his hitting needs more time to develop, and the major leagues is probably not the best place for that.

by Playoffs!!!!1 on Nov 21, 2011 12:06 PM EST reply actions 1 recs

ok… sometimes i just forget that there is a big difference between sports like baseball and basketball or european football where you´ll learn the most and as fast as possible while playing against the best players…

"Touch ´em all, Joe!"

by jaysfanfromeurope on Nov 21, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions

errr ... throwing a sheep to the wolves

by Playoffs!!!!1 on Nov 21, 2011 12:06 PM EST reply actions

Some thoughts

While many people think that Hech’s glove is MLB caliber, there’s lots of doubt that his bat can ever be. If so, Hech will essentially turn into Alcides Escobar, which is fine but essentially turns the Blue Jays into an NL team on offense with Hech starring in the pitcher role.

Yunel Escobar might not want to move to 2B. He’s a very good shortstop and he knows it. He might see it as a rookie taking his job without earning it. Additionally, moving him to 2nd robs him of some of his extra value as a good hitting shortstop with a very good arm.

by siggian on Nov 21, 2011 12:54 PM EST reply actions 2 recs

Why should we care about his value as a shortstop if Hechavarria has more value there? I’m not saying ‘MOVE HIM1" but if we can’t find anyone better, we need to use what we have where it’s best placed, right?

Here's my attempt at a witty sig. Didn't really go so well, methinks.

Wise men wonder, while strong men die.

If you ate this Thanksgiving, thank your local turkey farmer.

by Cam Oegema on Nov 21, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions

why does Hech have “more value” at SS?

"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking." (J.M Keynes)

by HESS2479 on Nov 21, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions

because his ++ defense is more valuable there (more ground to cover and more balls hit to SS than 2B)

plus, when evaluating him relative to others at his position, SS’s generally hit worse than 2B’s, so he’s less of a hitting liability when compared to other SS’s than to 2B’s. Of course, Yunel’s relative offensive value would take a slight hit moving to 2B, but he would probably get a bit of a relative boost in defensive value (2Bs arent as good defenders, generally, as SS’s).

The team overall would benefit most from having a great-field-no-hit SS (maximize defensive value and minimize offensive liability) and a good-hit-good-field 2B than the other way around.

So if we decide that playing Hech in the middle infield is the way to go, it makes most sense (assuming all the scouting reports are correct) to play him at SS and move Yunel to 2B

by SuckaMD on Nov 21, 2011 6:44 PM EST up reply actions

Honestly, I'd love to see this

But I do agree he won’t add much with the bat. I just start drooling over the thought of that cuban double play tandem.

by T_Mizz on Nov 21, 2011 1:52 PM EST reply actions

I think its absurd

Unless Hech gets an Escobar level bat this would never happen.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 21, 2011 2:15 PM EST reply actions

why?

Escobar is a very good hitter for a SS. if Hech can just be league average offensively he could be a very good player. of course, that’s a fairly big if, but Hech doesn’t need to be Yunel with the stick to have value if his defense is as good as they say

I tweet.

by benk on Nov 21, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions

I understand it may be more bias than anything

But I believe Escobar loses value going SS to 2B and he has seniority. If you said Hech at 2B it would make more sense but I wouldn’t move a fixture like Escobar (who does his job well) to a lesser position.

I think a league average 2B > A league average SS offensively. Just a hunch.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 21, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions

The point is that Escobar's bat plays at 2B

He would have been 8th in hitting for 2B this year in MLB, and as an above average defensive SS, he would probably also be an above average 2B (even though much of his ability at SS is his arm, which is less of an asset at 2B).

I think the important thing here is that this in no way is a demotion for Escobar. If anything, it improves his value on the open market if he can prove himself to be an above average SS and an above average 2B.

If Hech develops enough of a bat to be league average hitter for a SS, and has the defensive abilities that are being toted for him, then I think this becomes the logical move to make, unless a better option comes up at either position making Hech (or Escobar) expendable.

by Playoffs!!!!1 on Nov 21, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions

You make good points

I’m more on the fence now about letting Escobar play 2B. I don’t think he’d like it very much but I think we ask him.

by Mike Andrew on Nov 21, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions

Isn't this basically the same argument as in the Brandon Phillips thread?

As Siggian said above, not fair to assume Escobar will willingly move, especially when he just signed a sweetheart extension, plus there’s the issue of Hech’s bat. Whatever you think about its potential, it’s not MLB ready at all right now.

Plus, with Escobar being (defensively) at least a competent SS and possibly a very good one, it’s a zero sum game – you diminish Escobar’s position value (and possibly defensive value since his arm doesn’t play up at 2B and his range, which is important at 2B is more average) in order to justify getting Adeiny in at SS where a poorer bat can play

by MjwW on Nov 21, 2011 3:48 PM EST reply actions

If Hech’s value is gained more through his glove rather than arm (I honestly don’t know if this is the case or not), why not just play Hech at 2B?

Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

by Jevant on Nov 21, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions

I really don't know either

But yes, if you were committed (for whatever reason) to playing both, at 2B and SS, it would make sense to set the positions to maximize the defensive value. No idea who you play at which though

by MjwW on Nov 21, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions

yeah, we literally had this exact conversation the other day

I tweet.

by benk on Nov 21, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions

On both points

Approached properly, I see no reason why Escobar would have a problem switching positions. A lot has been spoken of Bautista’s positive influence on Escobar, and if he is willing to switch positions to help the team, then he should be able to help convince Escobar to do so as well. I just don’t see this as much of an issue as I guess some people do (I mean, I’m pretty sure players switch positions quite often through their careers, especially shortstops). Also, if he can prove that he is an above average SS and 2B, wouldn’t that help him once his contract is up?

Looking at Escobar for Hech at SS, it very well could be a 0-sum gain, in the sense that if Hech becomes a league average hitter for a SS, his defense would make up for the loss of bat at the position. The upgrade comes at 2B, where Escobar could be an average to above average bat, and an above average defender. Comparing that to what the currently have at 2B in their system, and that is where the upgrade comes in. Of course, all this is based on Hech becoming good enough with the bat to be average for a SS, which is not a sure thing to say the least, and certainly won’t happen by the start of next season. I see this move as a potential option for 2013, with a stop-gap put in place at 2B on a 1-year contract, but with AA, you never know and he may swing a deal to secure a great 2B for the long term this off-season.

by Playoffs!!!!1 on Nov 21, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions

My 2 cents ... future 2ndbaseman ...

Resign Alex Gonzalez … half the money of Johnston, similarish bat but better defense. Maybe one can catch lightning in the same jar twice …

by jgadfly on Nov 21, 2011 6:42 PM EST reply actions

similarish bat?

A player with a career 77 wRC+ who has never topped 100 in his career is not similarish to a career 107 wRC+ with 3 seasons > 100 and a max of 128. Plus KJ is 30 and can probably be gotten for 2 years (i.e. still in his prime), Seabass is 35 so well past his.

For the sake of comparison, 30 points of wRC+ is basically the same as the difference between Matt Kemp (consensus NL MVP) and Alex Gordon (a very good hitter, but not really in the MVP hunt). Or slightly less than the difference between Mark Texieira (i.e. legitimately good hitting 1B) and Elvis Andrus (below average hitter). Id pay a couple mil to make those offensive upgrades in a heartbeat.

by SuckaMD on Nov 21, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions

RE: Gonzales

Wasn’t looking at either Johnson or Gonzales career stats, just how they played the game in their short tenures with the Jays where Gonzalez was superior dollar value and seemed to fit in with the Jays. Wouldn’t want him anyway for more than a year and definitely not at the same dollar region. I wasn’t all that impressed with Johnson’s audition but he is worth the risk of offering arbitration for two draft picks and if he accepts and plays better AA can sell higher in June, and if he plays as extremely well as you think he can, then AA could revisit the contract next summer. Also, I don’t see KJ as measuring up to the ‘better than average’ prototype that the Jays are looking for.
Again, this is my 2 cents, for what it’s worth, which isn’t really much these days, not even a DoubleBubble … In closing, I’d recommend that you sit back and relax, take a pill or self medicate or something, afterall it’s November, springtraining is a long ways away… also on self medicating, I was being facetious, somehow I don’t believe as your monniker tries to portray that you’re a Doctor .

by jgadfly on Nov 22, 2011 2:34 AM EST up reply actions

Jon Heyman think KJ and Gonzalez get the same money.

Link here. I don’t buy it, and Heyman is always a lightening rod for jokes about being in agents’ pockets, but he has a pile of contacts.

by MjwW on Nov 21, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions

If that's true

I just hope the Jays are the ones getting KJ and not Gonzalez

by SuckaMD on Nov 21, 2011 8:55 PM EST up reply actions

Memo to thefront office, SIGN KJ

There is no doubt Hech is an incredible player and I believe his glove is definitely mlb ready. But at his age with his numbers, he dosen’t appear to be ready to contribute offensively in the lineup. I am seriously on the KJ band waggon and expect huge things from him next season, I just hope its for the Blue Jays.

I wish the 1994 strike would have never happened :(

by ExposTurnedBlue77 on Nov 22, 2011 12:01 AM EST reply actions

that's probably the direction they'd prefer long-term

but I can’t see how he wouldn’t be a significant drain with the bat. We might’ve gone from an era where some of us have completely discredited defense to giving it too much significance.

by msgg139 on Nov 22, 2011 5:47 PM EST reply actions