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Around SBN: Upon Further Review: Bo Knows Longreads

Are we there yet?

The way a team plays / manages / drafts / trades changes depending on where they are in the competition cycle.

Most teams alternate between periods where they are serious playoff contenders and period of rebuilding. In the contending years, the focus is on the here and now. Free agents are more actively sought, and teams are more willing to trade prospects for that final piece that could put them “over the top”. Remember the Jeff Kent – for – David Cone trade in 1992? Conversely, when a team is in rebuilding mode they are more likely to trade the Cone for the Kent than the other way around.

The Jays are in an interesting position in 2012 imho – potentially just entering the contending period.

Last year, the Jays won 81 games. Even without a major trade or FA pickup, they should be stronger in 2012 than they were in 2011: full years of Alvarez/Lawrie/Johnson, potential for some level of rebound from Rasmus/Encarnacion/Lind, and a stronger closer in Santos. My projection – largely intuitive – is that they would be an 85 win team without any further moves.

MLB proposes to add an additional wild card to each of the AL and NL starting in 2012. In 2011, if a second wild card had existed, it would have been Boston with 90 wins. In 2010 it would have been Boston again with 89 wins, and in 2009 in would have been Texas with 87 wins. So, “for the sake of the argument” (as we Irish say!) let’s assume that the Jays would need about 90 wins in 2012 to make it into the playoffs as the second wild card.

That means that the Jays would need an additional 5 WAR, over and above the organic growth, to have a serious shot at the 2012 playoffs.

Darvish is generally projected to have a WAR of 4 – 4.5, with some upside (think Dan Haren, or Matt Cain). The Jays pitcher with the 4th highest number of starts in 2011 was Jo-jo Reyes, with a WAR of about -0.6. By replacing Jo-jo, Darvish would (if he pitches to expectations) accordingly increase the Jays win total to 89-90. So we would be (pardon the pun) “in the ballpark”.

But a second acquisition would put the Jays squarely in contention. Prince Fielder had a WAR of 5.2 in 2011, 4.5 higher than Adam Lind’s 0.7. That 4.5, added to the ~89, would all but ensure one of the wild card spots. But Prince will be a difficult sign (even if I do not believe that he will get the 10 year deal he is looking for).

A player like Carlos Beltran might be a better solution. He is looking for a 2-3 year deal, and his 2011 WAR of 4.4 would be a substantial improvement over Thames (0.8 in a half season) or Travis (negative). Obviously with Carlos there are injury concerns, but that will likely reduce his price to a more manageable range (he is projected at 2 years, $20 million or 3 years, $27 million – less than half what Fielder would command.)

What are the other implications of the Jays being in contention?

  • They will not have the luxury of being patient. Every win counts, so if a Snider had a .184/.276/.264 April (as he did in 2011) he would be on the bench … or back in Las Vegas
  • They would be limited in their ability to “ease in” a Darvish by giving him an easier schedule earlier in the season
  • Rookies (or returning players like McGowan) would be expected to contribute immediately – not much time for learning curves.
  • There would potentially be more platooning and pulling players later in the game for better matchups. Players don’t generally like that, but …
  • There would also have to be an increased emphasis on team rather than individual stats. As an example – say one of our SP is pitching in the 9th in a close game, but tiring. He wants the CG, but the best thing for the team to do is bring in Santos.

Of course, all of the above is subject to the usual caveats about predicting 2012 based on 2011, about basing analyses on WAR, and on whether Darvish and the second wild card actually happen. But – whether in 2012 or later – the Jays are clearly improving, and sooner or later will have to shift mindset from “getting there” to “there”.


Comment 14 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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I think the team's performance will tell us that

If they’re close, AA will make midseason moves. I’m at least convinced of that now.

by REMO on Dec 18, 2011 11:41 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

+1

We’re taking steps, but there’s nothing to indicate that we’re a big signing away from contending right now. If the team is in the hunt around the trade deadline or finishes strong I think we’re going to see the win-now moves.

by Aidin on Dec 18, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

We were apparently close on Latos

although we are close on everyone. Here’s a link [MLB Trade Rumors]

AA - Sign Darvish, Cespedes, AND Jorge Soler

by JaysSaskatchewan on Dec 18, 2011 11:45 AM EST reply actions  

the Jays finished 81-81

but their pythagorean record was a little worse than that. so I’m a little less optimistic, but I do think we’ll be better

by benk on Dec 18, 2011 11:49 AM EST reply actions  

Most teams outside the AL East alternate between periods where they are serious playoff contenders and period of rebuilding.

In the AL East you alternate between being a very big spender and being lucky…

"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking." (J.M Keynes)

by HESS2479 on Dec 18, 2011 12:35 PM EST reply actions  

that's not true

but sometimes it feels that way…

"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking." (J.M Keynes)

by HESS2479 on Dec 18, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

They will not have the luxury of being patient. Every win counts, so if a Snider had a .184/.276/.264 April (as he did in 2011) he would be on the bench … or back in Las Vegas

Not sure I agree this this completely. I mean, it’s intuitive. But as you note, we won 81 games last year (without a hugely abnormal Pythagorean W-L, and essentially compltely normal if you strip out all games against Boston) and a few upgrades give us a shot at 85. This despite Rivera and Patterson consistently starting for 3 months each, not to mention Snider struggling for stretches, etc. So while obviously you want everyone contributing, you have to keep the long-term view in mind and give young players slack.

by MjwW on Dec 18, 2011 2:50 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

That's a rec

Do you have a young, talented cost controlled player having a down year who's "attitude" has cased problems with an aging player or manager?

Don't worry, I Alex Anthopoulos will take him off your hands, I'll even give you some moderately useful veterans that will "help you make a playoff run".

I tweet sometimes

by jaysfan100 on Dec 18, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what I tell everybody

Pythagorean has us winning 79 games and with the constantly improving roster I can see us adding 3-4 wins, maybe 5-7 with Darvish (7 only if he has some crazy ERA) but that still only puts us at a max of 86 wins even with my very loose but generous rankings.

The moral of the story is we can’t go into “win now” mode just yet, we are way too far behind. I think we would need Fielder and Davrish to even make a serious bid for a playoff spot. That’s a lot of money and we’d have to overpay a lot.

I really hope Snider,Lawrie, Thames and Colby can work through their struggles. (Everybody will struggle time to time, especially the youngguns)

by Mike Andrew on Dec 18, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

you only see a 3-4 win improvement?

really, Lawrie, Johnson and Rasmus basically HAVE to be 4-6 (or more) themselves. take out Jo-Jo Reyes’ (whose fWAR actually wasn’t horribly horrible but that’s neither here nor there) and Drabek’s performances and this team is highly likely to be an 85-87 win team IMO even with some Bautista and Romero regression.

by benk on Dec 19, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I see Lawrie as having a 2 WAR type season if all goes well

I know that might sound crazy but to me he’d be golden if he came out of 2012 with 20 homers, .250/.330/.480 with average baserunning and defense. Johnson was productive in a Jays jersey already (IMO) and Rasmus should improve a bit too.

Your forgetting about the regression of Bautista/Romero (well not really, you mentioned it) and the normal share of struggles and slumps against Jays players. Every year somebody has to do bad, its the way of the game. Who in the right mind would have last year predicted Johnson, Rasmus, and Snider would have the seasons they had. We also expected a turnaround by Cecil.

I put us at 85 wins if we both a) get lucky and b) don’t get Darvish. If we get Darvish, I put us at 89 wins if we have a good season.

by Mike Andrew on Dec 19, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

if Lawrie posted .330/.480 with average Bsr and defense, no value from SBs, he’s a 3+ change WAR 3B… not 2 WAR. as much as I keep telling myself “be conservative, he’s basically a rookie” I’d be very surprised if he’s “only” a league average offensive player. and even if he is, with average defense/baserunning (I think he’ll be above average in both) he’s a 2.5 WAR player. I think he’ll be worth somewhere from 4-5 WAR – I think that’s his most likely projection. but feel free to disagree.

by benk on Dec 19, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I really like your analysis here

The big question mark is our starting pitching and we should find out whether we’re close to having a solid staff tomorrow when the winner of the bidding for Darvish is announced. There are ways to add big bats, Fielder (can’t see it), be it Beltran (possible) or be it Morales (can definitely see it) or be it totally-out-of-the blue (most likely knowing Alex).

A couple comments on your “bounceback” candidates. Encarnacion had a good batting season last year (more consistent than ever before, better AVG and OBP) so I don’t think it would be fair to call an improvement next year a “bounceback” for him. His power levels were down though so I’d say Encarnacion is a possible candidate for continued development (and potentially a break-out season) if he puts the 2 elements (power a la 2010 and contact/on-base 2011) together.

Also in that category, Arencibia had a decent power year, but was concentrating a lot of his energies on learning how to handle a pitching staff. He is another candidate for “continued development” (concentrating on his approach and contact rates), but is probably a year away from his break-out season.

by khaleeji on Dec 19, 2011 3:33 AM EST reply actions  

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