Starting a trade rumour
Since there are no real rumours to discuss, I thought I would play the “fun with trades” game! Here is an idea to play with. It has not been reported elsewhere, and I have absolutely no basis for suggesting it – other than “the pleasure of the argument”!
Step 1: Hechevarria + Cecil for Rizzo + RP
Having acquired Yonder Alonzo to play 1B, the Padres are “actively listening” to offers for Anthony Rizzo.
After the Latos trade, the Padres could use another SP. They are in discussions with the Cubs about Garza, but Garza is arbitration-eligible in 2012 and is projected to earn about $8.7 million. He is also only under team control for two years, becoming a free agent in 2014. The Padres may have a fit with Tampa with a trade involving Wade Davis, who is signed to a team-friendly contract through 2015 with options for 2016-17, but Davis is coming off a poor 2011 in which he posted an ERA+ of 84.
Cecil is also under team control through 2015, and had an ERA+ of 90 in 2011 and a WAR of 1.1. He is still only 25, so has plenty of room to grow.
The Padres’ other area of weakness is at SS. Of the 18 shortstops in MLB in 2011 who had enough at-bats to qualify for the batting title, Jason Bartlett’s OPS of .615 and 2 home runs were dead last. And Bartlett has a cumulative career dWAR of -0.7 over 8 MLB seasons. Hechavarria will be a huge update defensively, and if he could maintain his pace from AAA last year, he should be an offensive improvement as well.
I would argue that Cecil + Hech are worth a bit more than Rizzo, so SD should add a RP (or perhaps a prospect) as well.
Step 2: d’Arnaud + Rizzo + Rasmus for Felix Hernandez
Before you go crazy – yes, I know that the Jays would be giving up an awful lot for a pitcher who is going to earn $58 million over the next 3 years, and who already has 1,400 IP on his arm.
But Felix is a 25-year-old Cy Young winner with an average WAR of 5.4 over his last 3 years. His aggregate WAR over that period is third in the majors – behind only Halladay and Verlander. And, at 25, it is likely that Felix has not yet peaked.
Rumor has it that that the Yankees are offering Montero, Gardner, Banuelos and another prospect, so the Jays would have – as a minimum – to do better than that.
Why these trades make sense for the Jays
As good as d’Arnaud and Hechavarria are as prospects, they still unproven at the major league level. And they are blocked – at least in part – by JPA and Escobar. So, at some point, they would be trade bait anyway. Why not now, if we could get a player of Felix’s caliber?
As to Rasmus – his 4.3 oWAR season in 2009 (at age 23!) should make him very attractive – more so than a Gardner, given that he can also play CF. But the Jays have two CF in their top 3 prospects in Gose and Marisnick, with Gose possibly only one year away.
Why these trades would be foolish for the Jays
Hech, d’Arnaud, Rasmus and Rizzo all have all-star level upside. They don’t need to turn into Tulowitzki, Mauer, Braun and Fielder – even if they become Yunel Escobar, Carlos Santana, Carlos Quentin and Paul Konerko, the Jays will still have overpaid.
And even if JPA and Escobar seem to be doing well, and Gose and Marisnick are coming along nicely, it only takes one injury or sudden decline in performance before we are regretting that we do not have a replacement ready to step in.
And finally – players like Hech and d’Arnaud are very valuable trading chips. Thing is, you can only trade them once. If we spend them on Felix, they will not be around for a future trade.
The bottom line
Imagine a rotation of Felix, Romero, Morrow, Alvarez and McGowan/Drabek/McGuire. If you normalize 2011 WAR to 33 starts, the first 4 would have an aggregate WAR of over 15. The best rotation in the AL?
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So your saying – Hechevarria + Cecil + d’Arnaud and Rasmus for Felix and a releif pitcher? I’d say no for a few reasons, For 1 Escobar could be moved to 2nd when Hech is ready. If you trade him who’s your long term solution at 2nd or Short for that matter? d’Arnaud will probably be better then JPA. I like the depth too much to see these prospects leave for Felix. I’m happy with Romero as our ace we just need a better 2.
by tremblay52 on Dec 21, 2011 6:33 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
You're making a couple of assumptions here.
1) What if Escobar doesn’t want to move to second base (ala Ramirez in Miami). He’s a good defensive ss and may balk at this.
2) It’s possible, not probable, that d’Arnaud could be better then JPA. Just sayin.
I think it's probable.
JP has been pretty bad. I would argue that D’Arnaud could be a better MLBer TODAY and hes younger.
And Clint Hurdle was suppose to be the next phenom once upon a time ago.
Nothing is a given.
it's pretty probably
d’Arnaud’s MLE numbers from AA were better than Arencibia’s numbers in the majors
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
"MLE numbers from AA were better...."
So what, it’s AA, not the majors.
the Nats should trade away Bryce Harper for Brett Cecil
He’s only at AA! Cecil’s a proven MLB pitcher!
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Eventually..
I’ll learn to just stop commenting back to your garbage and I won’t have to come back to see dumbass statements like this.
Just like...
how Travis Snider’s AAA numbers directly translated into MLB success!
So when we trade Shaun Marcum for Lawrie we got fleesed?
Because he was only in AA at the time.
Travis D’Arnaud beat him in average, on base and slugging percentage at the same level. D’Arnaud’s OPS was .117 higher.
By the way D’Arnaud’s a catcher… And he caught like 4 shutouts during the playoffs in AA.
perhaps in an alternate universe where 4 = 2. Two shutouts against Reading, none against Richmond. But I don’t even know why this was brought up in the first place – it doesn’t really say anything about TDA so much as the pitchers
So game calling does't factor in at all over the 162 game season?
Its unmeasurable but important and signs point towards him being a better one. Whether its the pitchers or the catcher, they certainly are making him look good.
Do you know that he was calling the games?
Even if if he was, the pitcher will ultimately overrule him anyway if he doesn;t like it. And it’s far more about the pitcher throwing good pitches than the gamecalling anyway
I remember hearing from a reporter on twitter he caught 4 shutouts
Well we know for sure that hes not a bad game caller.
Frankly, what you heard doesn’t mean anything, what matters are the facts. the fact is, the Fisher Cats had two shutouts in the playoffs.
You don’t know if he was doing the calling, and even if he was, an 8 game at the ed of the season doesn’t mean anything. I don’t know if he does have a reputation as a good caller or not, but the evidence you have presented is specious.
Shutout games*
If he called “Fastball” “Fastball” “Fastball” etc. I doubt there would have been those shutouts.
Nice straw man
If you want to have a serious conversation, then let’s have one. If you want to throw out straw men, I’m not interested
I still do not understand what these mystical "staw men" are
And why you and Benk constantly say I use them.
Your arguing that if I was behind the plate making the worst possible calls on purpose to try and throw a game I could not, because the pitcher is in complete control. I’m arguing that a bad game caller will typically record less 0 run games than a good game caller.
Straw man argument, you can read about what it is, but the way I used it was false assumptions to try and disprove an argument.
Your arguing that if I was behind the plate making the worst possible calls on purpose to try and throw a game I could not
No I didn’t – and that’s the straw man part of it…no professional baseball player is going to be making the worst calls possible. That’s why it’s a false assumption.
I’m arguing that a bad game caller will typically record less 0 run games than a good game caller
Sure, I don’t disagree. I’m arguing the effect of is quite small, so you’re only going to see a small effect, and you’re going to need a lot of data to seperate the signal from the noise. Your argument that because TDA caught two shutouts in 8 games is evidence of him being a good caller is wrong – the sample size is too small to draw a conclusion. And that’s if hes calling the games, which isn’t even necessarily the case.
And as for what you said about me saying the pitcher was in complete control
But I don’t even know why this was brought up in the first place – it doesn’t really say anything about TDA so much as the pitchers
Is what I actually said, so kindly do me a favour and don’t put words in my mouth – I clearly said it was more an indication of the pitcher than the catcher, not entirely the pitcher
I didn't say that we got fleeced,
all I was suggesting is that you don’t put all your eggs in AA and AAA numbers. As for Lawrie, I hope the guy becomes a real star because this team needs him. But I am not going to call him a superstar based on 43 MLB games and 150 AB’s. As a lifelong Toronto sports fan I have too often been burned by small sample size and minor league success to proclaim someone a star without at least 2 seasons of consistent success.
Arencibia's MLE was quite a bit better than his real 2011 numbers
I don’t think they work that well, particularly if you put stock into JP’s hand injury
Felix, while amazing isn't worth that much from my point of view as a Jays fan
However,
Travis Snider would have to a piece in ANY deal with Seattle because of him going back to Washington State AND being what we consider a toss up with Thames for the starting OF spot.
Snider + pitching prospect for Felix is what I hope AA would pay to “steal” from Seattle, though with the Morrow steal, I don’t think Seattle wants to deal with us again.
I don't know
If Seattle necessarily sees the Morrow deal as a “steal”. From their perspective, it looks like they traded a guy with an ERA near 5 last year for a good, solid closer.

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