NBA style dealing for the Jays
I think this offseason has shown us that the Jays do have the money to spend, but only if the investment is worth it. We saw this last year as well in the Colby Rasmus deal where AA took Mark Teahen's salary for 2011 and 2012 in order to complete the deal. Why not employ this approach a bit more this offseason?
Matt Garza would be a good fit for the Jays on the surface: He's pitched well in the AL East (1.25 WHIP, .270 BABIP during his years in TB) has a strong durable pitchers' frame (6'4', 215 Lbs) and has swing/miss stuff that AA likes (avg FB is around 93-94 and is Z-Swing rates were around 67% with the Rays. For some reason he decided to throw considerably more sliders and breaking pitches with the Cubs in 2011 which led to more contact being made against him. IF he reverts back to the power pitcher he was with the Rays, he'd a good fit.
The question is how much will it cost? On the surface, if we use the Latos/Gonzalez deals as comps, you are looking at 4 quality young players going back to the Cubs. You might be able to pare that down to three players if you factor that Gio/Latos are controlled longer, but it's still going to take a package involving Travis D'Arnaud or another top prospect. It's unlikely a Travis Snider, Kyle Drabek and Carlos Perez prospect would get this deal done.
The Jays need a power bat in their lineup and while we have a log jam in the OF, that can be resolved in a trade. Why not take on Alfonso Soriano to reduce the price on Garza. He's owed $54MM over the next three years, which is something the debt-heavy Cubs probably would love to get rid of. Soriano still plays a decent LF and does have the option to move back toward 2B if necessary (probably not optimal). More importantly he can DH in the AL. His batspeed is still there. He'd be a good replacement for Edwin Encarnacion who essentially fulfills that purpose. Both would give you an OBA of around .340 and a WAR around 1.5. While EE is considerably cheaper, you have to consider the fact that you would might be able to drive down the price of Garza.
Proposed deal:
Garza/Soriano and $20MM for Mark Teahen ($5MM for only 2012 and the Cubs need a versatile bench player), Travis Snider and Kyle Drabek.
Jays will have to cover $34MM of Soriano's remaining salary, which works out to $11MM/year but if you subtract Teahen's $5.5MM here it's basically $28.5MM in additional capital to get Garza or roughly $6.3MM/WAR considering he gives you 1.5 WAR. Still a high valuation on a guy who is starting to decline (his O-Swing rates are starting to increase), but you get solid #3 starter who can give you 4.5 WAR at a discounted price.
The move allows a full-season platoon between Thames/Francisco in either LF/DH while Soriano plays everyday in either LF/DH.
A similar move could be done with the Mets and Jonathan Niese/Jason Bay. Bay is owed $35MM (assuming a $3MM buyout in 2014) and with the Mets looking to raise cash via $20MM ownership increments, they might be amenable to package of young controllable players to get rid of salary. I prefer Garza however given his ability to miss bats and his prior comparables in the AL East which is the toughest division in baseball.
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How about this one
Probably completely unrealistic at this point, since most of the guys they could have targetted eith the freed up cash are off the board, but:
Zito/Bumgarner for something (Cecil?).
We eat Zito’s contract, get a good controlled starter. I’ve had something like this in the back of mind since Nov.
yeah
I don’t think that’s feasible. The Giants would be crazy to trade Bumgarner right now.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Well
Back of the envelope math: $5M/WAR, 5% inflation, 40/60/80 arb salaries relative to free market value, 30/50/70/90 for Super Two. $500K for non-arb years.
Bumgarner:
Estimated production (WAR): 4, 4.25, 4.5, 4.5, 4.5.
Value of production: $20M, $22.3M, $24.8M, $26M, $27.3M = ~$120M
Cost (Not Super Two): $0.5M, $0.5M, $9.9M, $15.6M, $21.9M = ~$50M.
Cost (Super Two): $0.5M, $6.7M, $12.4M, $18.2M, $24.6M = ~$62M
Assuming 50/50 chance of Super Two, surplus value = $64M.
Zito:
Cost = $19M, $20M, $7 buyout (I thought he had 3 years left, not 2 + expensive buyout). Figure he’s basically done, so no value (if you take a 2 year average of WAR and apply aging, you basically get this). So the value is negative $46M.
So you’re right, you’d need to find ~$20M in value to make this work. I thought Zito had a third year left, which would even this out. Maybe if you ate Aubrey Huff’s contract too, and sent Cecil. But again, it’s too late for them to redloy the money fo rnext year (short of signing Prince), so it wouldn’t be practical even if theoretically we could match up on this.
On the ones you provided
Garza does not have nearly as much value as Latos or Gonzalez, as he only has two years of control left, and they’re the two most expensive. If we did this, I wouldn’t want to send anything back – ie, a purely salary dump, and I can’t see Epstein doing that.
The Mets thing is interesting – unlike Chicago, they’re biggest focus is dumping salary and bad contracts, gaining prospects is secondary. If you agreed to take on Bay’s salary, I could see them being interested though they’d probably have to get something back to make it look somewhat good to the fans and not a pure salary dump.
What about Dempster?
I know we want young and cost controlled, but 1 year of Dempster at $14MM can make a deal pretty versatile. Its a salary dump with some benefit.
@VagabondBansal
"The Cubs need a versatile bench player"
noone needs Mark Teahen
sorry i hate mobile posting
I like the niese/bay deal. niese is controlled longer and is younger. Bay has prior success in the al east, and like you said, nym is looking to dump bad deals
by STZ513 on Dec 23, 2011 6:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
to a lesser extent,
I have secretly thinking that Houston would be looking to do something similar with Wandy Rodriguez and Carlos Lee. Lee is owed $18.5M next season and Wandy 3/$36.
Maybe I'm overvaluing our prospects..
But aren’t Snider/Drabek high ceiling players? I wouldn’t want to trade them for a Number 2-3 starter.
I am the one who knocks.
Snider/Drabek are high ceiling prospects but...
You need to give up something to get something. You could offer to take on more salary and include EE going the other way while offering only one of Snider or Drabek. That way Theo can present this as a win to his fanbase who will be upset at trading a solid starting pitcher.
I wouldn’t take Wandy and Carlos Lee. Garza has the best metrics that would indicate success in the AL East. Niese…I’m not so sure how he would fare in our division, but it’d be nice to have a Canadian who could hit in LF.
I live in SF and follow the Giants by virtue of being surrounded by all their bandwagon fans. The management there is loathe to give up their starting pitching (Bumgarner) as they know that’s the key to long-term success given the ballpark they play in. Case in point, their reluctance to trade Cain/Lincecum even though they probably could get two starting pitchers and a bat for one of them while saving money to get other pieces that would help them continue to win the NL West for the next 5 years. As a result they would never give up Bumgarner even if it means keeping Zito. A better deal for them would be a straight up Zito for Vernon Wells, since they need an athletic CF.
A better deal for them would be a straight up Zito for Vernon Wells, since they need an athletic CF.
Wells at this point is an athletic CF in the same way that the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire – that is, in name only. Honestly, I think Barry Zito might make more of an athletic CF at this point than Wells.
Just to be clear
The above was just a little snark about Wells, not a commentary on what was said. I agree Bumgarner is not going anywhere.

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