Review of First Day of the Winter Meetings
by Tom Dakers on Dec 5, 2011 8:34 PM EST
in Toronto Blue Jays News
Email
PrintNothing happened.....
Alex doesn't figure much will happen this week. They won't be looking for a second baseman until Kelly Johnson decides to accept or decline arbitration. And....
"Most times, we gather a lot of information, move things forward with agents and GMs, and if we're going to finalize things, they're normally after these Meetings. ... I'd love to have everything done here, but realistically they'll probably get done after we leave."
So don't expect much this week.
But share any rumors you have heard or thoughts you have in the thread.
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Hanley Ramerez trade
we offer Hutchison and Thames
He’s a very good player, coming off a poor season. Not to mention his reported problems with LoMo, and now Florida Miami goes out and signs Jose Reyes. Maybe he’s grown disappointed with the team, or at least, one can hope he has.
Do you have a young, talented cost controlled player having a down year who's "attitude" has cased problems with an aging player or manager?
Don't worry, I Alex Anthopoulos will take him off your hands, I'll even give you some moderately useful veterans that will "help you make a playoff run".
I'd rather Escobar stay put at SS
And we get a 2B.
Hanley said he won't play 3B (I think?)
but he might not mind playing 2B. I’d imagine Hanley would be okay defensively at second and if his bat recovers at all he’d be a masher
Hmm
I don’t think he would be keen to move to 2nd. Think Yunel would move to 2nd?
I have absolutely no idea
I bet either one would be okay with it, but maybe I’m overestimating baseball players’ team-first-ness
I am not basing it on anything
But did see a quote where he specifically said he didn’t want to play 3b (as you alluded to). I can’t see him wanting to move the 2nd either. That said, I was seen recent reports that he has warmed to a position change, Third or CF.
But as I am getting sick of all the rumours, fake or otherwise that all have Jays attached to them. I think we should sign Yu, Kelly Johnson and Fielder. Trade Lind, Thames and Deck McGuire for Ramirez. Then pick up some mediocore relievers on the FA marget. Make Nestor Molina closer and plan the Parade in TO. It is so easy to do this in MLB The Show.
by Rhinos on Dec 5, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually
Make Miami give us Volstad and he can be our closer. With Janssen, Litsch and Molina as the set up guys and Cecil as the Loogy/spot starter.
Rotation: Yu, Romero, Morrow, Alvarez, McGowan/Drabek/Cecil
And I will know change my twitter to
@incarceratedRhinos
by Rhinos on Dec 5, 2011 9:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Nevermind – Hanley, duh. But you’ve already filled the 2B hole with KJ. Lawrie at third, Escobar at SS, Rasmus in CF. Where is Hanley playing?
And I am entirely not serious
Just excited about the make-up of the team and I want them to make a serious run in ‘12, while not sacrificing too much of the future. We have some trade chips and don’t see any reason why we can’t compete in 2012. Plus all the rumours of our “involvement” or “interest” is driving me crazy.
We’ll compete, I do;t know about contend. And with the farm system in such great shape, and about to pay big dividends starting probably towards the end of 2012, I don’t think it’s the right time to go all in. I prefer the incremental, take the opportunities to improve as they present themselves approach that’s worked pretty darn well so far.
Miami is technically in Florida so it’s alright to still call them the Florida Marlins or Florida. Its also nicer to remember them back when they were cool and didn’t look like the uniforms that the cast and crew of Miami Vice’s softball team wore circa 1986. I’m still referring to them as the Flordia Marlins until they win a world series or Don Johnson is cool again.
we don't call the Blue Jays
the Canada Blue Jays nor the Ontario Blue Jays. you can call the Marlins whatever you want, but calling them anything but the Miami Marlins isn’t correct
by benk on Dec 5, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
haha
I started to write the exact same thing and thought it was too snarky
yeah, I mean obviously don't care what anyone calls them
but I do get a tad annoyed when people pretend it’s not called the Rogers Centre. like, fine, call it the SkyDome, but don’t pretend it doesn’t have a new name
I don't get what's so bad about "Rogers Centre"
think it sounds better than “SkyDome”, personally
Derp
When it opened, SkyDome was the “9th wonder of the world”. My public school class took a 2 hour bus ride to SkyDome when it opened just to see it and for a tour. It was a crazy time. I think its still thought of SkyDome to those of us who were in awe of its greatness when it opened. Also, Rogers Center reminds me that it was built at a public cost of $600 million, sold to the private sector for $150 million in 1994 and then sold to Rogers for $30 million in 2004. It also makes it easier to for me to believe Rogers when they tell us they are financially strained by the Blue Jays which is why they can’t spend the big bucks on free agents when in reality they have one of the sweatest stadium deals in the history of baseball. Rogers center cost $600 million dollars to build in 1989 Rogers picked it up in 2004 for $25 million. Don’t tell me you can’t afford Prince Fielder or you “don’t do” long term deals. hahaha
by Sean Coleman on Dec 5, 2011 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
somehow the fact that Rogers picked up the SkyDome for $25M is evidence that they have tons of money available for the Jays?
I know this is chicken-or-egg, but if the fans actually supported the Jays currently, then they would be spending money.
Derp
Also, they got it in 2004 from the private sector. So it’s not like they got a massive deal from the taxpayer at that point – presumably it was fair market value, and if not, then it was private investors who got screwed.
oh, i am in no way implying that Rogers screwed anybody. I was simply pointing out the sweet deal they got and why i prefer to think of it as SkyDome. The fact that they picked up SkyDome for $25 million is however evidence that they should have a lot of money available for roster though because it is very lucrative for a team to own its own stadium and get a piece of profit from everything that happens within its walls. You can’t compare it to buying a 2 million dollar house for 100,000 and then not having 1 million on a private plane because the house purchased for 100,000 doesn’t generate massive revenue. It would be like buying a walmart for 100,000$ and then complaining 5 years later that you can’t afford a private plane.
by Sean Coleman on Dec 5, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
Having MLB’s 25th highest attendance does not equal walmart
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Dec 5, 2011 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
Rogers bought the team for $137 million and SkyDome for $25-$30 million and Forbes values the team at around $337 million dollars. If Rogers was losing money then they would sell the team and bank the $200 million dollars profit. I’m not saying its a conspiracy but certainly Rogers benefits more from fans thinking the team is losing money and they can’t spend any until they get more fans in the stands. They may have had the 25th highest attendance however they make a much higher margin of profit on ticket sales and other stadium generating revenues then teams on the list that are higher up but don’t own their own stadium or have a poor stadium deal. I don’t believe for a minute that they didn’t make many millions of dollars last year and that the Blue Jays isn’t incredibly valuable to Rogers.
by Sean Coleman on Dec 5, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
Again, you miss the point
Of course Rogers makes a lot of money – MLB is a monopsony, it’s set up to do that. A good part of the increase in franchise value is due to the Canadian dollar, as it depressed the Jays’ cash flows and therefore value. Rogers got in right near the bottom of the CAD’s value against the USD.
Rogers’ goal as a corporation is not just to make money, it’s to maximize profits. Which means that it only makes sense to add more costs (player salaries) if it leads to more revenue than the added cost. Now, I happen to believe that this will happen, but the point is that if the Jays made $40 million last year (completely made up figure), they will not say, “well, let’s sign Prince for $25M, and hope we add more revenue and worse case scenario we only make $15M”. Instead, they analyze how many more wins it will likely result in, and the revenue those added wins bring in, and make decisions. A decision to avoid big name free agents doesn’t necessarily have anything to with being too cheap, it has to do with avoiding a situation where you are unlikely to get your investment back – Drunk Jays Fan had a post showing all $100 million contracts and the record isn’t very good
Finally, while the Jays are valuable to Rogers, keep in mind they represent at most 2-3% of their revenues.
by MjwW on Dec 5, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No, this isn't correct
If it was bought for $25 million in 2004, and that was the fair market value – that means that the $25M represents the net presetn value of the cash flows generated by the stadium (less cash you need to reinvest).
Now granted, there would be some synergies from owning both the stadium and the team (the main tenant) – you have complete control, etc etc. But I don’t think you can credibly argue that these synergies would amount to a whole lot (in the context of the Jays entire revenues), because if so some of that would be baked into the price of the stadium (buyer and seller both know of the synergies, but they’re only realized if buyer has control, so seller demands some of this upside, there’s some sort of split, both win).
It’s funny actually, I remember having this same argument with my Dad 7 years ago, except I was arguing the synergies were potential quite large, larger than what they probably are.
Last bit made me think of this
http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1343
Check yoself before you rec yoself.
by Gerse on Dec 6, 2011 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well just because I buy a $2 million house for $100,000
It doesn’t mean that I have a million dollars to spend on a private plane
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Dec 5, 2011 10:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm totally shocked by this comment.
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Dec 5, 2011 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
You know who else liked the name Rogers Center over Skydome?
Hitler. Yeah that’s right, I just Googled it. It’s true.
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Dec 5, 2011 10:28 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I looked on Wikipedia to check.
It was definitely confirmed.
by ddbumpus on Dec 5, 2011 10:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I worked at the "Rogers Centre"
Which is why I insist on calling it the “SkyDome” :P
If we somehow get Hanley Rameriez to play 2b....
….I will buy a Hanley Jersey IMMEDIATELY.
by BrownMagician on Dec 5, 2011 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
I think it will happen
when we get Pujols to play 1st and Fielder to DH and Yu to be our number 3 starter.
Is this how Yankee fans talk?
I'm just trying to picture that...
1. Yunel Escobar SS
2. Hanley Ramirez 2B
3. Jose Bautista RF
4. Albert Pujols 1B
5. Prince Fielder DH
6. Brett Lawrie 3B
7. Colby Rasmus CF
8. JP Arencebia/ Travis D’Arnaud C
9. Travis Snider/ Eric Thames LF
Holy shit..
I need to take a cold shower.
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn't. And that's what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by outoforder87 on Dec 6, 2011 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Bad word is bad.
No swears alert!
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Dec 6, 2011 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
It has more certainty when they talk though :(
Because they can buy it…
by BrownMagician on Dec 6, 2011 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, except they put Felix Hernandez in there too
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
I already bought my "teamunit" Fielder shirt...
does that mean i have to return it? Maybe i’ll hold tight on the Ramerez one for now.
by Sean Coleman on Dec 5, 2011 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
SkyDome vs Rogers Center
I don’t think we should refer to it as the Rogers Center until the Blue Jays play a playoff game there. SkyDome sure saw a lot more playoff baseball in its early years then this so called Rogers Center.
Yeah, but the Rogers Centre has seen an over 300 more regular season games in the last 4 years.
This is an equally valid argument.
Check yoself before you rec yoself.
None of the top 10 happiest moments in my life as a Jays fan have occurred in Rogers Center. In fact, this whole Rogers Centre name has existed in a terribly unpleasant decade.
by Sean Coleman on Dec 5, 2011 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
A lot more happy things has happened for me at the Rogers Centre than the SkyDome
partially because I never went to games when it was called the SkyDome
Derp
I think this whole line of reasoning is pretty specious. A name is used to impart meaning. Where you say Rogers Centre or Skydome, the vast majority of people will know what you are talking about.
yes
but like benk said, it was the SkyDome, it is now the Rogers Centre. You wouldn’t call the Nationals used to be the Expos, but you wouldn’t call them the Expos in the present tense, would you?
Derp
crap
that second sentence is a mess. What I meant to say: The Nationals used to be the Expos, but you wouldn’t call them the Expos in the present tense, would you?
Derp
Straw man
That’s because the Expos are not materially the same thing – they are in a different city, etc – the meaning is completely different.
Rogers Centre and Skydome are materially the same thing – same building, same location, same main tenant, same characteristics.
Well
Logically, I suppose, for consistency I should try to parse some reason that you can use either, but I’m not.
In my original response, I should have said, a name for a building. The Expos/Nats thing was convenient, but my argument was really limited to buildings. The reason to name a building, as opposed to a generic address, is to impart meaning. In that sense, Rogers Centre/Skydomw doesn’t matter.
Even less consequential one:
Devil Rays vs Rays
(not really providing an opinion here, just mocking the silliness of bad karma associated with a team name)
Check yoself before you rec yoself.
Interestingly
In The Extra 2%, Jonah Keri relates that the name was going to be the Sting Rays, this was the winning choice of a survey in the local papers. Except Vince Naimoli refused to buy the rights from some team in Hawaii for $35,000. And instead they went with Devil Rays. There’s some dumb business acumen (incidently, wasn’t life in the AL East much more fun when Tampa sucked)
Depends what you mean by suck
1998-2005, they were generally pretty close to .500. 1998 they were kinda in the hunt until late August, same in 2000. And a couple seasons, especially in the early Riccardi area when he did the tear down, there were some bad years – 2004 in particular. 2006-08, there was some big money spent to push the core Riccardi built over the top. Unfortunately, 2008 coincided with the Rays rise. That year, the Jays tied that Rays for the second best record in baseball in SRS (at 1.1, it adjusts for Pythagorean luck and strength of schedule) behind the Yankees (1.3). Unfortunately Tampa outplayed their Pyth, Toronto underplayed, and the rest is history.
History is History
Scroll down to the glory of Sky Dome and on the way check out how incredibly amazing Maple Leaf Baseball Stadium was. There also used to be a stadium on Hanlan’s Point -they say Babe Ruth once hit a ball out of that park and into the Lake. I wonder if that ball might still be at the bottom of Lac Ontario…
http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/07/what_sports_stadiums_used_to_look_like_in_toronto/
Hands up if you’ve been to a Jays game at the EX.
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Dec 6, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
Waving hand
I preferred the 1st base bleachers (no seats, just a number where you placed your heinie).
The reserved benches in RF?
The worst most uncomfortable place to sit ever in time. I was there.
General admission seating in LF that was basically a controlled riot. That place was a Zoo.
Kids today have no idea. Damn kids with all their fancy technology, smart phone zombies gettin’ in my way and their weird Sabermathics mubo-jumbo. Why I oughta…
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Dec 6, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Uncomforable yes
But when the sun was shining (but not shining too much) and the wind was wafting (but not wafting too much), I enjoyed them very much. Mind you, this may be a nostalgic trip back to a place that never really existed. You know, the everything-was-better-when-I-was-young sort of thing.
Sitting on my hands
The Jays moved into the SkyDome before I was born.
Here's my attempt at a witty sig. Didn't really go so well, methinks.
Wise men wonder, while strong men die.
If you ate this Thanksgiving, thank your local turkey farmer.
I heard Prado's name being thrown around with the Jays
But AA will waitvon that one until KJ makes his Arb desicion
by Chris McC on Dec 6, 2011 12:14 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Other than the Halladay trade in which AA basically had extremely limited partners (due to Roy boy’s no trade clause), I can’t think of any trades that were rumored before they happened. I think we had heard the Blue Jays always liked Colby Rasmus and Brett Lawrie but I don’t remember any rumors about specific possible trades before they happened (and I’m a rumor monger).
Interesting
You should post this as a FanShot.
Maybe this is the master plan for the 2012 2B – low ball bid, no one else bids, then leverage that into a favourable contract (read: lots of options)
Done!
FanShot done — thanks!
On Nakajima, many options or not, I can’t imagine this is plan 1A for 2012
Hmm..
That’s interesting. Hopefully he signs!
But, I’m skeptical of anything/everything the Sun reports. If only Rob Ford told me to avoid reading The Sun.
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn't. And that's what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
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