FAN VOTE: What should be the jays 2012 starting lineup? Thames or Snider
by TheMainEvent on Dec 8, 2011 9:29 PM EST
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PrintAfter making a FanPost viewing what looks to be the 2012 starting lineup & guessing what Farrell WOULD do on opening day, there were tons of debate on what we as jays fans should do for their 2012 lineup. So I say, why don't we get alittle excitement going here & get a vote going on the lineup 1 through 9 here.
Before we can determine who should bat #1 for the Blue Jays, we need to determine our starting lineup. I'd say 8 positions are solidified, the only real battle going into the start of the season (barring injuries/trades) is in LF between Travis Snider & Eric Thames. So lets do a vote here to determine who you think should be the opening day Left Fielder for the Blue Jays.
I think theres no debating that Snider has shown more promise in the field thus far, especially with big improvements in 2011, and also showing a very strong/accurate throwing arm. But his struggles & inconsistency at the plate continued in 2011, and it was/is one of the most frustrating things for Jays fans to see, everytime he is tearing it up in the minors & you get glimpses of it in the majors, then it fades away to nothing.
Meanwhile Thames was a pleasant surprise in 2012. His fielding is ughhhh, well, its a left fielders fielding for sure. But he did show some consistency at the plate, and some very good power, but has lacked ability to take a walk (and strikes out more then you'd like).
Keep in mind also, Thames is 1 year older then Snider, it may not seem like that as we've seen so much of Snider, but he is still a very young player.
Its most likely the loser of this preseason battle will be sent to the minors to maxamise their plate appearances before getting called up due to injury or possible contention.
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my vote is snider
at this point I believe that him and dwayne murphy just on’t click. And I’m not sure if they ever will unfortunately, so this may not be the right choice. But I do believe the potential in Snider, the fact hes a better fielder, and that he’s still younger then Thames; I want to give him every single chance to succeed.
Another rough outing could be extremely tough on him though, and if I don’t see improvements from him/rasmus/Arencibia (most importantly, taking more walks) i am seriously considering firing Murphy & giving Chad Matolla the chance to work with these youngsters at the big league level after all the success he’s had in the minors.
…i am seriously considering firing Murphy & giving Chad Matolla the chance
So this is AA’s psuedonym?
by MjwW on Dec 8, 2011 9:58 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I would suggest waiting on doing any line-up voting
So much of the winter is left, I would AA still has some moves up his sleeve, be they free agents or trades.
Consider the moves made after this date:
In 2009-10 winter – Buck signing (12/16), Morrow trade (12/23), Molina signing (2/19)
In 2010-11 winter – EE signing (12/12), Patterson signing (12/21), Dotel signing (1/4), Rauch signing (1/17), Wells trade (1/21), Francisco trade (1/25)
Based off this, I’d wait until the New Year if you really want to do it. Personally, I think the discussion in the other thread was a better forum for it, but obviously it’s up ot you.
who do you really see being bumped from the lineup?
outside of a jaw dropping trade that would move one of these starters out, i don’t see anybody in this lineup being bumped to the bench. and…. people want to talk jays, regardless if this is the final lineup, this is a way of getting a fun discussion going.
by TheMainEvent on Dec 8, 2011 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously?
I’d argue none of 1B/DH/LF are locked down. I think if they brought in a bat as a FA, then Lind and EE platoon at first.
Anyway, just my two cents. By all means, proceed
by MjwW on Dec 8, 2011 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, it depends
Depends on if the hitting coaches think Snider has fixed the problem that causes him to hit balls weakly. If they don’t, I don’t see much reason to let Snider struggle in the majors again.
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I think it entirely depends
On how things go in spring training for both of them. I think that Snider has the incumbent advantage, but it’s a slim lead and he really doesn’t have a margin for error.
Hey everyone can you help me with this?
Apparently a couple of seasons ago there was some sort of issue between Cito and Travis and/or Travis and Murphy.
Can anyone tell me what happened and what it was all about? I have heard about it mentioned in passing but never heard the full story on what happened.
I think Snider needs to be given another shot
This is his last option year, so they really need to see if he’s worthy of an every day spot in starting lineup. Thames has plenty of options, so another season in Vegas won’t hurt. I think he’d have a good attitude about it too. In the event of an injury, he’d be the first call up.
Another option might be to give him some at bats at DH with EE. However, I think I’d prefer having him work on his defense at AAA, and maybe keep Cooper up as the left handed bat off the bench.
I voted Snider
But Thames should be first man off the bench for any injuries to LF/CF/RF/3B/DH. Snider deserves another shot but Thames doesn’t deserve to be sent back down to AA after showing so much progress in the majors.
he doesnt deserve it
but he should get it because its much more benificial for him to start down there & bat in the top 4, get tons of at bats & field time, and get called up when a spot opens. For either of them, i’d prefer to see that rather then sit on the bench & bat every 2nd or 3rd game
by TheMainEvent on Dec 9, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
He could play 100+ games covering 5 positions
Because of how people would move based on injuries and days off.
Well then
If Eric Thames can’t improve defensively. Neither can JP.
JP is several months older and also terrible defensively. One could also make the case he doesn’t frame pitches well and is a bad game caller. Maybe both should be sent down to AAA for life?
I heard once you turn 25, you start regressing.
by Mike Andrew on Dec 10, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
that's exactly the opposite of what Gerse said
he said because Thames is bad at defense, we should give him as many reps as possible so he can improve
lol
arencibia is the starter and could start 130 games this year, so hes getting that much needed playing time but at the major league level.
by TheMainEvent on Dec 10, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
I know he is
But I’m trying to argue that if JP can improve/is expected to improve then why isn’t Thames?
People act like Thames is a finished product.
That isn't...thing.
Your sarcastic analysis has also entirely ignored any of the zillion of other factors that contribute to a player’s ability.
Logic!
I know
But you can’t argue that Thames can’t improve.
Reading comp!
Wouldn’t you rather a severely defensively-challenged player get all the reps he can?
that’s exactly the opposite of what Gerse said
he said because Thames is bad at defense, we should give him as many reps as possible so he can improve
Sarcasm doesn't work on the internet
When did I ever suggest playing Thames not in the field? If E5 got injured Bautista could move to DH and Thames to RF?
I think he can get more than enough reps filling in for 5 positions. Between injuries and days off he can be in the lineup quite frequently.
by Mike Andrew on Dec 10, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
Where's the sarcasm?
I didn’t say you did. I said that he would learn more by playing 1) every day and 2) in the same position
Well when you put it that way
It makes sense. IMO Snider should start still.
by Mike Andrew on Dec 10, 2011 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
why would they put bautista at dh and thames in the field
when bautista is a far greater outfielder then thames. That wouldn’t make any sense unless we want to give up on the season right away lol
by TheMainEvent on Dec 11, 2011 1:16 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
far greater?
-10.6 UZR/150 for Bautista and -15.5 UZR/150 for Thames. I would argue that Thames will be a better fielder next year and Bautista worse. It would also protect Bautista from injury and give Thames reps.
by Mike Andrew on Dec 11, 2011 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
In fact
exactly zero people in this thread (from your initial comment, not the whole post) have said that Thames can’t improve.
They tell you not to use it because it's not reliable
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
That's why
you go to the wiki article on the thing you’re writing about, then go to the list of sources at the bottom and use those.
Same information, real sources.
Or just go to reliable sources first, so you don't have to fact check Wikipedia
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
You're not getting my point
I’m not saying check the sources to see if wiki is correct. I’m saying totally ignore whatever wikipedia says, and just use it as link dump.
I see what you're saying, I just think it's a waste of time
It’s faster to just go to a source that doesn’t have to be checked. But I still use books sometimes for research, so maybe I’m just old, haha.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
Snider Sucks
This guy can’t hit and if he can improve in the field why can’t Thames. I’d even take Thames at DH over EE any day. I’m surprized at the voting do any of you watch the games, Snider comes up with men on…well we can forget about scoring any runs now…
its too funny to delete....
Rent this for cheap!!
by Bowling_Guy25 on Dec 10, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Eh
I don’t think it’s delete-worthy. he/she’s not being troll-y or anything (you could argue that I’m the one being troll-y)
Derp
Classic troll lines
“playername sucks”
“Do you even watch the game?”
Rent this for cheap!!
by Bowling_Guy25 on Dec 10, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Do you even read the comments!??!!
Rent this for cheap!!
by Bowling_Guy25 on Dec 10, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
dmon
I can assure you that no one here ever watches the games. None of us own TV’s nor can we afford cable.
If you’ve ever been in a BBB game thread you would know this. We all login through illegal dial-up modems from our basements. Game threads consist of Tom typing out descriptions of what he hears on the radio. Unfortunately Tom is a little hard of hearing and there are major problems with lag times and delays so threads usually degenerate into arguments over which Blue Jay player can grow the best moustache.
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Dec 10, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
if we could afford cable
don’t you think we could afford to move out of our parents’ basements?
by SuckaMD on Dec 10, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I actually live in my uncle's basement
my parents were starting to charge me money
Blogging about the Toronto Blue Jays at Bluebird Banter
snider doesnt suck
hes a great prospect who hasn’t materialized at the majors yet. But he’s still only 23, and has shown a much higher talent level in the minors then thames, so why would you give up on him when you know thames ceiling & you know sniders ceiling is much higher.
by TheMainEvent on Dec 10, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
he hasn't materialized into a star yet
so he’s not Pujols, but he’s been a league-average player (1.7 fWAR) through a little more than a full season’s worth of PA (877) over 3 seasons despite breaking into the bigs at 21, suffering injury trouble and being jerked around by the franchise.
That’s actually pretty good. There are tons of guys who end up being very good players, and even stars, who don’t even sniff the majors until they are 23 or older. And plenty of guys who have done what Snider has thus far turn into very good players.
Snider’s BBref Similar Batter’s through Age 23 list includes players like:
1) former Jays hitting coach Larry Hisle, who put up a 22.5 offensive rWAR peak over 6 years in the 70’s
2) George Hendrick – 14 orWAR over 4 years from age 24-27 in the 70s
3) Bobby Murcer – 4.2, 8.3, 7.1, 4.6 orWAR age 24-27
4) Hall of Famer Ralph Kiner who OPS+’ed 173 at age 24.
Sure, there are some guys on that list who flopped, too, but it’s too early to simply say that Snider sucks and should be discarded. Especially if the alternative is Thames. If Snider was blocking Heyward, then that’s a different story.
League average
Is closer to 2.3-2.5 fWAR in a full season’s worth of PAs – the average to replacement translation is 2 fWAR/600 PAs. So over 877 PAs, he’d need almost 3 fWAR to be league average. So that 1.7 fWAR isn’t very good at all
That’s not to say, as you note, that he couldn’t yet be a good player.
I wasn't trying to prove he was "doing well"
I was speaking more to the “Snider comes up with men on you can forget about scoring runs” comment. It was only a month’s worth of work but that’s all there is to go on for his latest stint
As it stands
If both go with the Jays into spring training, it will be a compitition for left field. Snider is going to have to win the starting job back. It’s not really a case of who should be starting in left, but who will win the starting job.
When is Snider going to be a given full big league season?
Still don’t know why Thames stayed with the team last year and Travis was sent down. I get that we needed to see Thames, but Snider is a “premium talent” and he was coming off a pretty good month. Thames’ bat might have been marginally better at that point in the season, but they’re worlds apart defensively. Its actually ridiculous how big the gap is
Personally
I think players who play their first year on a new field with a new surface and don’t fare well should get a second chance. That’s not scientific but it makes sense.
I think Snider should start, but I hate how people think they’re “worlds apart” defensively.
from the only data we have
they are. possible in the order of two wins through a whole season. I don’t think Thames is that bad, but I’d be pretty shocked if he ever turned into an average defensive corner OF. I think he’d be lucky to be as good as Bautista defensively
probably wont get that chance until hes out of options
and lets hope hes still with the jays when they are finally forced to keep him in the lineup to sort out his problems, but if he doesn’t figure it out this year I wouldn’t count on it. Maybe as a bench player, but not ever getting a starting role for a full season
by TheMainEvent on Dec 12, 2011 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
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