Today in Blue Jay History: Frank Thomas Released. Tomorrow in Blue Jay History?

by Tom Dakers on Apr 20, 2011 2:43 PM EDT in Toronto Blue Jays Analysis

Three years ago today Frank Thomas was released by the Jays after a poor start to the season, you can read about it in this post by Hugo. As you can see by the poll in the post, the move wasn't widely loved by BBB folk at the time.

At the time of his release Thomas was hitting a big .167/..306/.333 in 72 PA. He had also irritated the team by not being thrilled when he was benched a day or so before that. There was an underlying issue in Thomas' release, he would have had an $10 million option for the next season, if he got to 350 PA. Course since he was a long way from that number, the team could have given him a longer chance to find his stroke and still have released him long before he locked in the option.

Since he had hit 26 home runs the year before, and since the team was hoping to compete for a playoff spot, that year, it seemed a little quick to give up on him. But then we had Adam Lind tearing up the minors and we needed a to open a spot for him. Then Adam went 1 for 19 (or something) and the team sent him down again. He came back when Cito got the manager job and insisted that he be brought back.

I guess the parallels are obvious. Juan Rivera is hitting .103/..239/.103 in 46 PA. He'd have to go on a pretty good run to get to Frank's numbers by 71 PA. I'm not normally a big fan of getting rid of players after only a handful of at bats. It always suggests to me that the team doesn't have faith in its ability to judge talent.

In Rivera's case, I'm not sure the team ever thought much of his ability, so there shouldn't be much attachment to him. On the other hand, he doesn't have a contract option that will kick in if he gets enough at bats.

He hit great this spring. I know spring training numbers don't mean all that much but why you would hit .350+ in spring and then, when the season starts, struggle to hit .100.

I guess if I was running the team, I'd give him a bunch of at bats before the end of the month and if the bat doesn't come round, I'd let him go. I can understand that they would rather trade him but it ain't gong to happen the way things are going now. If he is on the bench, he is really of no value at all. With only three players on the bench, we can't really pitch hit much, because we shouldn't have anyone left in case of injury. And he isn't going in as a defensive replacement.

He is slower than I thought he could be. I'm not sure who would win a foot race between him and Big Frank. When I saw him this spring, his lack of range amazed me. He looks even slower on TV.

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I miss when there were unmined classic Otis Redding songs

to name posts after.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Apr 20, 2011 2:50 PM EDT reply actions

is only cause you mined them all

by Tom Dakers on Apr 20, 2011 3:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Quick

Trade his expiring contract for Justin Upton

HEADING STRAIGHT FOR THEM, I PRESS DOWN MAH GUNS!

by BenjiDoc on Apr 20, 2011 3:27 PM EDT via mobile reply actions

Agree with the Rivera comments.

Give him a chance and if nothing changes pull the plug. You never want to let MLB players go for nothing but the team’s focus is speed and aggressiveness. I haven’t seen either from him I’m afraid.

by jays182 on Apr 20, 2011 3:46 PM EDT reply actions

When is Brandon Morrow pitching?

I know it has nothing to do with this story, but which day is Morrow coming off the DL and pitching? My friend read Friday and I read Saturday, and we wanted to make sure before buying the tickets to the game.

I thought I can get the accurate answer at BBB becaue as you could tell by my name, I’m Clueless.

"Low, and he walks the bases loaded on 12 straight pitches. How can these guys lay off pitches that close?"

by Clueless Omar on Apr 20, 2011 3:50 PM EDT reply actions

Most things I have read have indicated he is on track for Saturday.

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Apr 20, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Pretty sure it's Saturday.

Jo-Jo on Friday.

Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

by Jevant on Apr 20, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Even if the Jays don’t know Jo-Jo will know. Otherwise, what is the point in being psychic?

by JaysSaskatchewan on Apr 20, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions

I'd keep

playing Rivera till at least the end of May. He’s bound to come around some time. Letting him go already or in the next couple weeks doesn’t make much sense to me.

There’s no guarantee whoever replaces him will fare any better(unless he continues to hit at his current clip, which would be hard to do even for Mario Mendoza), and they have to pay him regardless. I’d want him to get close to 200 PA’s before I’d even start considering letting him go.

by sportsguy2905 on Apr 20, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

Rivera is a really small problem. I mean compared to VW’s stat line (186/.230/.257/.487) and the money he makes, I’d take JR any day.

by bleh on Apr 20, 2011 4:21 PM EDT reply actions

this makes no sense

Wells is gone – no one is suggesting we should go back and undo the trade! The choice right now is between Rivera and not Rivera, not between Rivera and Wells. Wells’ performance is totally irrelevant to the discussion as to what should be done with Rivera.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Apr 20, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs

+1

"Do not ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." - Howard Thurman

by Jeremiah Stanghini on Apr 20, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions

For management, VW vs JR is immaterial. From a fan’s perspective, it should give us a little more perspective that JR’s current performance is tolerable just because he’s not making VW money. He’s still making a lot but it’s better than VW putting up a similar stat line and us justifying it by saying he’s getting better or he’s a nice guy.

by bleh on Apr 20, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Totally different..

JRs not making VW money, but he’s still penciled into the lineup… In my opinion, Rivera was just a contract dump by ANA to take on VW… The Jays paid VW all that money to perform and he didn’t… Rivera was picked up to get rid of that contract, even if he never performs, he was still a discount… Not seeing how you could even compare the two situations..

by Lanky07 on Apr 20, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions

it just doesn't make any sense

unless it’s just fan spite that someone else is paying more to another underperforming player. But that still has nothing to do with the choice the Jays are confronting now.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman

by hugo on Apr 20, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions

How did Vernon got into this discussion?

Yeah, I know that the garden gnome was part of the Vernon trade, but why would we compare GG’s hitting to Vernon? It’s not Vernon’s place that he’s taking in the line-up, it’s rather McCoy’s/Thames’/Lawrie’s spot that he’s holding, so we might compare his prospects to theirs, but Vernon has enough trouble in California right now, so we can definitely leave him out of this discussion…

"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking." (J.M Keynes)

by HESS2479 on Apr 20, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions

I like going back to read those posts from a few years ago.

Jose Bautista has a higher midi-chlorian count than you do.

by Jays11 on Apr 20, 2011 4:22 PM EDT reply actions

I like it too.

I even occasionally like one of mine.

by Tom Dakers on Apr 20, 2011 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions

“He is slower than I thought he could be. I’m not sure who would win a foot race between him and Big Frank. When I saw him this spring, his lack of range amazed me. He looks even slower on TV.”

It’s been awhile since I saw Bengie Molina, but I am starting to wonder if Rivera could even beat Bengie in a race. At least Benjie would give it his best try.

by CuseJay on Apr 20, 2011 4:30 PM EDT reply actions

Until we can come up with someone better than McCoy to call up from Vega...

…I’m not sure we should be worrying about Rivera.

The fact that Jayson Nix is an everyday starter now also concerns me.

Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

by Jevant on Apr 20, 2011 4:31 PM EDT reply actions

I think this is...

more a function of the injuries (and time away) than it is a vote of confidence for Nix.

I think we’ve had our “full” starting line-up once this season, right? (With Davis in center, Edwin at 3rd, and Rivera DH’ing). I’m not saying that in this iteration Rivera would somehow magically starting hitting .250 (or even .200?), but maybe, just maybe, that would have an effect on him.

Regardless of that, I think we’d all like to see at least something positive come out of Rivera’s at-bats. Meaning, getting some solid contact.

He is a career .277 hitter (and has a career .281 BABIP), so this current abyss he finds himself in, may just be the result of a really terrible streak. Even his ZiPS projections (both R and U) have him hitting above .240. Not ideal from your DH, but considering the kind of hitting he’d have to do over the next little while to bring up his average to .240, that’s kind of exciting, isn’t it?

"Do not ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." - Howard Thurman

by Jeremiah Stanghini on Apr 20, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions

A debate worth having...

If we don’t want Rivera as our DH, who do we want?

Patterson?
Pods?
Someone AA trades for in the next 4 weeks?
An up and coming minor-leaguer?

(I’m assuming no one thinks we should be playing Nix, McCoy, or PoD full-time.)

"Do not ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." - Howard Thurman

by Jeremiah Stanghini on Apr 20, 2011 4:41 PM EDT reply actions

E5

Nix looks good at 3rd and edwins bat is definitely his strength. Play nix till lawrie is ready for the show.

by craig in calgary on Apr 20, 2011 4:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs

this

If you can't pay em' trade em' and pay for someone else

by jaysfan100 on Apr 20, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Nix really hasn’t looked all that great.. His defense has been so so, and his bat at a power position is not anytihng special.. Problem is there isn’t alot of options now…

Question is who do you want in.. Nix or Rivera…. There just isn’t a great option until Lawrie is ready, I agree with you there… Almost wondering if AA isn’t kicking himself for bringing in Chavez or another stop gap 3B… Nix I don’t feel is the answer… Just my opinion though..

by Lanky07 on Apr 20, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Personally, I believe that as a stop-gap Nix is, while mediocre, as good an answer as any of the FA options that we had...

And no, Beltre was NOT one of our options…

"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking." (J.M Keynes)

by HESS2479 on Apr 20, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Nix may prove to be a decent stop gap… And I agree, Beltre was not an option… But Chavez was.. Just seemed odd that AA insisted EE was a 1B/DH, and there really hasn’t been any options at 3B all year.. That is the one spot AA so far could have improved… But all in all, in a building year, with this farm system, no concerns. this is the happiest i’ve been with the team in years

by Lanky07 on Apr 20, 2011 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Keep JR until mid june before calling up Lawrie

GIves us a chance to let him find his stroke and swing him in a deal for someone(….anyone) while at the same time lets the clock run on Lawrie to keep him for that extra year of team control.

by ADIL on Apr 20, 2011 5:07 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

rec’d

The 2010-2011 Avalanche - Driving up hits on www.beer.com all season!

by RyanO'Reilly FanClub on Apr 20, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions

If he can’t field a position how well will he have to hit to have any trade value?

by JaysSaskatchewan on Apr 20, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Could release Rivera, call up Thames, and move Bautista to 3B until Lawrie is ready

and then send Thames back down once Lawrie comes up. Thames wouldn’t have to hit well to be better than Rivera has been, and you don’t burn a full year of control on either guy. Although considering how full our OF is, Thames’ future (if he has one) is either as a bench guy or on another team, so burning the option and FA year wouldn’t be disastrous.

They're not just hitting home runs. They're doing the little things, like hitting doubles.

by Torgen on Apr 20, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions

works for me.

by Tom Dakers on Apr 20, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions

only problem with that is that we’re juggling Jose around once more. And if it’s true that he prefers RF, I can live with Nix (or even Johnny “silver slugger” Mac) at 3rd for the time being

"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking." (J.M Keynes)

by HESS2479 on Apr 20, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions

This.. if he hits .200 its a vast improvement.

"You can't always get what you want, the Rolling Stones song was right" Brian Burke

by kulewhip on Apr 20, 2011 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions

I remember discussing Rivera and noting how his defense was rated as average by UZR… having now seen him play a bunch I now question the validity of UZR.

by Parallex on Apr 20, 2011 6:01 PM EDT reply actions

last year he was a -10 in the outfield....so nothing like average

by Tom Dakers on Apr 20, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions

I think someone said career wise. I don’t remember exactly but the short of it was I remember it basically being said that he wasn’t awful (which he is)… maybe he was more limber earlier in his career.

by Parallex on Apr 20, 2011 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions