Fundamentals Vs Flash
by Tom Dakers on Jun 22, 2011 12:01 PM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays Analysis
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PrintLast night I had to go out during the game to take my boy to baseball tryouts, so I listened to some of the game on XM radio and I got the Braves radio feed. As you know it wasn't a fun game, but it is interesting to listen to broadcasters for other teams sometimes. There was one line the Brave commentator used that got my attention. Talking about Yunel Escobar he said that 'Yunel was flashy and could make plays that would make you stand up and cheer but his 'fundamentals' were lousy.' Well, I'm not sure if he used the term lousy, maybe he said terrible or horrible or awful, but it was one of those.
Then he went on to say that Alex Gonzalez wasn't flashy, but he was 'fundamentally sound' and made all the plays he was supposed to make. He went on about this for the length of an inning, but then the Jays' innings were pretty short. He said that because Yunel wasn't good fundamentally he makes too many mistakes, while Alex didn't make mistakes.
I love lines like this because it is a great way of saying 'I don't like player x' without having having to back it up with, you know, real, definable words, while still sounding sort of baseballish. I mean, who'd want a flashy shortstop, baseball not being a spectator sport and all. We'd hate to have players do things that fans would enjoy watching.
Anyway, I figured if Yunel was terrible at fundamentals and Alex was great, Yunel must have a lot more errors. That makes sense right?
This year Alex has 6 errors for a .983 FA. Yunel has 7 errors for a .975 FA.
Too small a sample?
Last year Alex had 19 errors for a .973 FA. Yunel had 18 for a .972 FA.
Still too small?
Career Alex has a .971 FA. Yunel .975.
So if Yunel makes a lot more mistakes it doesn't show up in his error rate. Now I really don't like using errors for many things. Since errors are a judgement call by a official scorer, there can be biases involved. But it seemed like to tool to use for this. Clearly Yunel doesn't make a lot more mistakes that are of the type that appear in the box score. You'd imagine if his fundamentals are so much worse he would.
Anyway, I fine with Atlanta folks not liking Yunel, but, if you say something silly, I hope you don't mind if I check it out.
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yeah
that’s the harder one to check out, but since he seems to get along with Blue Jay players, I’m good with his attitude.
Yeah, I heard them talking about Yunel too.
Was on the road so had to listen to them and the Cincinnati broadcast crew this past weekend. I’d swear they trashed Yunel (even if only for a moment) in each game. Sad.
On the positive side, they told their fans that Adam Lind was one the best hitters in the AL that nobody in the NL has heard of (paraphrasing here).
equally likely
is because he’s really good at baseball and just had a down half-season
by benk on Jun 22, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
THE L WORD!!!
I'm thinking that when the Leafs win the Cup, I'll lose my drinking problem.
by leafsfan4life94 on Jun 23, 2011 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
evertyime i mention it
30 seconds later its put up
/runs away
by bowling_kid25 on Jun 22, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope you don’t mind if I say this, but TC and the Braves players didn’t like Yunel. He wasn’t able to effectively communicate with his teammates, his manager, or the GM let alone other Spanish-speaking teammates. Yunel was the ‘flashy one while Alex did what he was supposed to. Yunel’s defense is a little better than Alex, but it was the attitude that drove Frank Wren to trade Yunel.
Ryan's the name, Call of Duty and Braves baseball's the game.
Twitter: @RyanMarby
Nah don't mind that....
It is the silly stuff I mind…if someone says he has lousy fundamentals and makes lots of mistakes…I’ll check that out.
Since he has arrived in Toronto Yunel Escobar has never been a problem. He has in fact become one of my favourite players because he actually seems so positive and happy all the time.
Perhaps the problem lay with the people who were failing to communicate with him rather than the other way around. His stats since the trade seem to support that position.
i caught
both the radio feed on xm and some of the tv feed on peachtree tv (atlanta tv feed), they both felt the need to talk about how great Gonzalez was on defense, and then wouldn’t shut up about it.
he is a good defender
he’s been worth 2.5 wins on defense over his career. Yunel, at his current pace, will put up a little over one win on defense, but his bat and baserunning are far superior to Gonzalez, and he’s also younger
I think you're putting all your eggs in the UZR basket
Escobar rates much better by Defensive Runs Saved and TotalZone. In fact, Escobar rates as far better than Gonzalez by either of those metrics, and actually as an elite defender
career runs saved per nine innings, DRS
Escobar: 0.09
Gonzalez: 0.03
career runs saved per nine innings, TotalZone
Escobar: 0.07
Gonzalez: 0
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I love Yunel.
I don’t care if he’s flashy. I can understand how you would dislike a player if they were flashy AND sucked at baseball though.
Alex Gonzalez's
I looked up to see who the better Alex Gonzalez was in terms of defense.
Blue Jay’s Alex (the one that started back in ‘94): .973 fielding percentage
Brave’s Alex: .971 fielding percentage
I guess another argument you can throw out there is that the current Alex Gonzalez is not even the best fielding “Alex Gonzalez”, so stop bashing Escobar because you hate him.
to be fair
Alex Gonzalez I is slightly better by TotalZone (+7 career) than Alex Gonzalez II (0).
On the other hand, AGII scores worse in TZ than in the other systems. Unfortunately, the UZR and DRS datasets available for AGI are not of sufficient size to be used for comparison (and are skewed towards the end of his career, when he was in his decline phase and rated somewhat poorer by TZ standards).
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Whatever happened to the eye test?
Stats, especially defensive stats can really drive me around the twist. Yeah, they’re a component of the game and they can tell you some things, but to me the only true way to judge a player is to see them play. Is Gonzalez a good player defensively? Yeah, to me he seems the consumate pro shortstop; around about average to slightly above. Makes the plays, but not a highlight reel, gamechanger guy. How does Escobar compare? My eyes tell me he’s better. He’s really cut down on his simple mistakes (every player makes simple mistakes- booted balls,etc) and regularly makes extreme, highlight reel type plays. To me, Yunel is half a step and a summer working with Johnnie Mac away from being a premiere shortstop.
Of course, with that said, I think he’s our starting 2nd baseman as early as this time next year, but more likely 2013.
by BuffaloSojourn on Jun 22, 2011 11:29 PM EDT reply actions
some stats rate Yunel better
and some rate Gonzalez better. Yunel is a plus shortstop, and unless we sign Jose Reyes and elect to put him there (they’re pretty close by UZR) I can’t see Yunel moving for at least a couple seasons
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